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Verity Brown

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:07 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Emmeline Vance has been mentioned in a number of threads, and I think it's worth taking a look at what the book has to say about her death.

We first find out about her death in chapter 1. The British PM is thinking about all the things that have been happening, and one of those is "those two very nasty and well-publicized murders." A couple of pages later, we learn from Fudge that "Bones and Vance" were the victims. A bit later on, we find out that Emmeline Vance was killed "just around the corner" from 10 Downing Street.

In chapter 2, we find out more about her death...and Snape's involvement in it--a fact that some see as the first clincher that proves that Snape is really on Voldemort's side. Let's take a look at what he actually says about her death. To put it into context, Bella has been grilling Snape for over four pages with her suspicions of him. The main theme of her complaints is the fact that she doesn't think Snape has been doing or sacrificing enough to prove he's a loyal Death Eater. She has just got around to the subject of the Order, demanding to know why Snape hasn't revealed their headquarters. After reminding her of the Fidelius charm, Snape says:

"The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."

Some have called that gloating or boasting, but there's nothing in either the speech tag (there is none) or the context to suggest that interpretation. He is defending himself to Bella by pointing out some ways he has served the Dark Lord. He can hardly say, "And gee, I feel rotten about it." (And frankly, in Sirius's case, he probably doesn't, sorry to say.)

When I first read this passage, the first thing I thought was not "gosh, that proves Snape is evil." The first thing I thought was "so, it's finally happened."

Consider: is it very likely that Snape's double agent role would come without any price for Dumbledore's side? How long can Snape pass on useless information before Voldemort grows suspicious? Frankly, I was surprised that it took as long as it did for Snape's double agent role to have a bad consequence for the Order. All the way through OotP I was wondering how Snape was managing to prove himself to Voldemort as a good and useful spy without any coming harm to the Order.

It seems very unlikely that Dumbledore would send Snape back to Voldemort without understanding what kinds of things Snape will have to do to remain in Voldemort's confidence. And I expect that all the adult members of the Order know how much danger they are all in, and that they are all willing to give their lives, if need be, for Dumbledore's cause. Surely, I think, they would prefer that one of them die than someone completely innocent (a non-combatant, as it were).

I'm not trying to suggest here that Emmeline Vance agreed to sacrifice herself. I'm not even sure that she was singled out by Snape to betray (certainly there are candidates whose loss would damage the Order more). I suspect--and this is purely my own speculation, based on what I understand of the situation--that Snape's information tends to result in a fair number of close calls for the Order, and that even if one takes the best view of Snape and supposes that he tries to warn the Order about what info he's passed along, sometimes that warning will come too late or not be sufficient because of other circumstances. So much for speculation. But I think that it's fair to say that we don't know enough about Snape's modus operandi in his spying activities (for either side) to be able to judge under what circumstances this "betrayal" took place.

If Emmeline Vance and Sirius Black are, as it would seem, the only people whose deaths have resulted from Snape's reports to Voldemort, after an entire year of being his spy again, then personally I'm fairly impressed at Snape's ability to keep Voldemort satisfied without better results.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:24 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

I agree completely... it would be far too suspicious for Snape if the Order knows all these things about the Death Eaters, but the Death Eaters have relatively little to go on about the Order...

And it's highly possible Snape did not know the information he passed to Voldemort would result in the Vance murder.

But yes, I agree with your points, Verity.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Pace

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:10 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Cologne (Germany)

Question: Who was Emmeline Vance anyways?

I don't recall her being a member of either the original or the reformed order and Fudge never explains anything about her.

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If it's not chocolate I'm not interested.

SlytherinSexGod

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:28 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 20

Pace wrote:

Question: Who was Emmeline Vance anyways?

I don't recall her being a member of either the original or the reformed order and Fudge never explains anything about her.

true.. true.. myself failing to remembering as welling...

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it is blasphemy, that's what it is.

Owlbait

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:30 am

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

She's listed in the Lexicon. She's one of the people who came to escort Harry home from the Dursley's at the beginning of book 5

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azazello

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:07 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Oh, well if none of you can remember who Emmeline Vance was, then clearly her death was not important and we should not therefore castigate poor Widdle Sevewus for being an accesory before the fact of her torture (possibly) or murder.

/sarcasm

I have to suggest at this point that in your panicked rush to keep your Fanon fantasies alive, you seem to be throwing the moral baby out with the moral bathwater. And let me stress this, there is no moral relativism going on in the canon universe of Harry Potter.

Snape was gloating. He's smug. He's pleased about it - either as an act he is successfully putting on here, or as truth. I do not need speech tags to know this. And if he is telling the truth at that point (and cui bono? if he is not), then our beloved Severus is an accessory before the fact in the murder of Ms Vance.

Emmeline Vance was an adult and operative member of the Order of the Phoenix. She is a woman, who has chosen to fight evil. More to the point, she is a member of the same order as Severus Snape is supposed to be. She is (was) his colleague. Her murder is important. Later in the story, Horace Slughorn strongly states that murder is the very worst thing you can do - and it is born out by the fact that Riddle is a multiple murderer to create his Horcruxes.

Now before one poster here starts getting on her debate high horse, let me point this out. I am here to debate various points of interest about the new book. Feelings are starting to run absurdly high. Those of us who have (justifiable) doubts about Snape's character do in fact have a very strong right to say so, and can indeed suggest that the kneejerk response of those who insist he cannot be a bad person is not adequately thought out, and certainly not adequately expressed or argued. Or else, you would not be making comments which imply that the murder of this woman is not important.

Apply the Cicero principle here, of Cui bono?. ie, who benefits? Snape does not need to impress any order member here, so he may well be telling the truth. Why should he lie? And everything else he says here, is the truth, canon supports it. If he did fit up Ms Vance - and there is nothing in canon later to suggest he did not, then I cannot regard him as other than damned.

Make a good case for explaining why precisely Snape is lying at this point, and I might be prepared to listen, constantly insisting that he cannot have done anything bad is just proving to me that this debate is silly, and panicked.

Essentially if you are having to sit around and say that murder is okay to prove a fictional character as not bad, not really, you have lost sight of the entire game these books are about.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Owlbait

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:42 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

azazello wrote:

I have to suggest at this point that in your panicked rush to keep your Fanon fantasies alive, you seem to be throwing the moral baby out with the moral bathwater. And let me stress this, there is no moral relativism going on in the canon universe of Harry Potter.

You seem to be badly confusing Fanon Snape of the large endowments and
black silk jammies with a Canon Snape who might (or might not) turn out to have been acting, as best he can, for the benefit of the Order and under Dumbledore's orders.

azazello wrote:

Snape was gloating. He's smug. He's pleased about it - either as an act he is successfully putting on here, or as truth. I do not need speech tags to know this. And if he is telling the truth at that point (and cui bono? if he is not), then our beloved Severus is an accessory before the fact in the murder of Ms Vance.

I do not think Snape is lying, but I disagree he is gloating. There is no direct evidence to support that interpretation. Mind you, there is also none to support my own interpretation -- which is that Voldemort used the information Snape provided in some operation, which resulted in the death of Emmaline Vance. Snape is not proud of it, but he is offering the circumstance to Bellatrix as a reason he should be trusted.

There really isn't enough to go on either way, it was written that way to keep us guessing. We'll just have to check back in 2 or 3 years to see who was right.

I also have to point out that there is a significant difference between betraying a person to her death, and actually killing her. Snape is ultimately responsible for his own actions, not for Voldemort's. He may (or may not!) feel guilt over Vance's death, but he did not kill her. Looked at the other way - is Harry responsible for Sirius Black's death? He feels guilty about it, Sirius might have lived if Harry had acted differently, but the moral burden of killing him still lies squarely on Bellatrix.

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azazello

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:12 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

Er, no, I think if you look at my posts you'll find I'm not the one who's been doing that. I think that's the other lot. Read my posts properly before making absurd statements like that.

And if you've actually read book 6, you'll see there's considerable ambiguity about where Snape's loyalties lie.

And I somehow doubt Emmeline Vance was part of Dumbledore's "manipulations" because I've read a lot of canon and don't buy that particular piece of fanon foolery, either. [/i]

ellerobbie

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:26 pm

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 5

Brief background:
I can't speak for any others but a lot of my belief in Snape's goodness lies in my belief for Rowling as a writer - I trust her abilities and to me, having Snape turn out to be evil would undermine a lot of what I've felt she's tried to convey in the earlier books. It would cheapen the whole series for me into a world that's solidly good guy/bad guy.

I think that's what is so brilliant about HBP - for all it says, it's all very much in the grey area. For me, my belief in Snape's innocence came from the drawn-out hospital scene in which everyone talks about how horrible he is - it just seemed a little much. Killing Dumbledore, selling Order members up the river - all of that showed his evilness. There was no need to continue beating that drum - unless Rowling wanted to make sure readers were aware of how absolutely Snape had cut his bridges - and I don't know why she would have done that unless it was more than simply "Snape is evil."

But about the Vance issue: either way, what he did is horrible (although Rowling was smart in making it a throw-away character for readers because it cut out the emotional response of losing someone people are attached to). No matter how much you want to argue the ends justify the means - giving someone information that could end a life is not morally sound. He's been a spy for years: of course he's going to gloat about selling out an Order member to other Death Eaters. He never would have gotten back into the good graces of Voldemort without being able to play that game. The only hint I can find in HBP that suggests his true feelings on matters is the "I am not a coward" line as he's escaping. I think it's the first truly honest thing we've ever heard Snape say: no matter what side he's on, he believes that his actions, no matter how horrible, are courageous because he's helping the side he believes in win. Or, if nothing else, that is how he perceives his actions.

In other words, this is my way of saying: can everyone please calm down? The only thing I think HBP proved is that Snape is not just in this for himself: he believes strongly in one side, otherwise cowardice would never come into play. Someone trying to save their own skin does not care if they are perceived as a coward: but someone trying to fight for what he believes in, what he thinks is right - he would care very much about how he was perceived. (My biased comment: especially by those he is loyal to in the end.)

Sorry for the long entry (HBP finally pushed me to register for forums to discuss the books, and I find several years of pent up Harry Potter love flowing to the surface).

Cheers,
Elle

Pace

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:30 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Cologne (Germany)

azazello wrote:

Believe it or not, I asked that question for the simple reason because I truly did not remember who she was. I have read all 6 books so far, but OotP, incidentally, is the one I have the most trouble remembering.

That's why I asked, not to make her death seem any less important or to use it to justify whatever Snape said about it. It was quite clear to me that she had to be of some importance as she was mentioned together with Amelia Bones, but Bones is a member of the Wizengamot (as I was constantly reminded by a couple of friends) and was therefor an important figure in wizarding society. The name Vance, however, didn't spring to mind immediately. Please don't confuse a simple question with 'white-washing' the character of Snape. I know there are many people who insist on making him out to be a victim of circumstances and it can be annoying, but my personal motto is 'live and let live'.

So you have your opinion, the rest has theirs, I have mine and since I tend to have an occasional hole in my memories, I end up asking stupid questions like the one I asked. I am sorry if this in some way offended you. I didn't mean to.

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If it's not chocolate I'm not interested.

Verity Brown

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:19 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

ellerobbie wrote:

I can't speak for any others but a lot of my belief in Snape's goodness lies in my belief for Rowling as a writer - I trust her abilities and to me, having Snape turn out to be evil would undermine a lot of what I've felt she's tried to convey in the earlier books. It would cheapen the whole series for me into a world that's solidly good guy/bad guy.

That's very similar to how I feel. Even before HBP came out, we weren't sure which side Snape was really on. And even then, it was my opinion that having Snape turn out to be evil would be terribly problematical. Because it would create the message that redemption is not possible--that once you're evil, you're solidly evil, you're stuck there, and there's no way to change. Which is not a message I like, either for myself or for my children.

We've seen a lot of other characters in these books that are very true-to-life: people who are looking out solely for themselves, like Lockhart; people who are supposedly "good" but are not paragons of virtue, like the Marauders; people who are "evil" without necessarily being a part of Voldemort's organization, like Umbridge. Making Snape utterly evil, when that's what everyone (but Dumbledore) has suspected of him all along, is just a bit too obvious for my tastes. Clearly, my tastes have no bearing on what she actually ends up writing. But it would be a real shame to get to the end of the series, after all this time of loving it, and have to say, you know, I really didn't like how that came out. It wouldn't be the first story I've ever felt that way about (not even the first one this summer--not having a lucky summer that way), but I really do hope that the eventual ending lives up to the rest of the books.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

EnigmaVX

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:32 pm

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

To add my two knuts worth to this thread I will weigh in with the following thoughts.

Addressing the comments made by Snape in Spinner’s End about her death, I think it important to consider the following this is a war and Snape is a spy they lie… The best lies are ones well grounded in truth, it makes them harder to detect. Furthermore on the premise he is loyal to the Order, one would think, whatever information he was feeding to Voldemort would have been well considered in advance if he gave the enemy nothing of use he spying would quickly come to an end.

I would think that there would be two possibilities. One that the Order miscalculated just where the information would lead the DE’s and regrettably it lead to the death of a member, sorry but in espionage these things do happen. Second referring to Dumbledore’s comments to Draco on the tower about "We can make it appear you are dead" or something to that effect perhaps she is still alive and merely hidden.

Last I would suggest that Snape was merely being a talented espionage agent and using a carefully constructed statement containing truth and lies to qualm Bella’s suspicions. Take a close look at what he says… "The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirus Black, though I give full credit for finishing him off to you." Note he does not say he led them to Emmeline but the information he gave the Dark Lord led the DE’s to her, perhaps misdirection, second just what information did he give the Dark Lord that led to Sirus’s death? We do know that it was Snape that alerted the Order about the events at the end of the OotP.

For those who want to argue that he is a true DE, I ask you to please explain just how a spy is to be effective, and how an effective one should be written.

For those who say he is working both sides, well honestly that one is hard to debate my only answer is that looking only at Snape’s actions I feel he works for the Order.

odsbodkins2005

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:52 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 17

Verity Brown wrote:

After reminding her of the Fidelius charm, Snape says:

"The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."

Verity

I've read the argument above as to whether Snape was gloating or not, and whether or not some folk are being unrealistic in wanting to believe that Snape is still good. The point was also made that why would Snape lie about this? One thing that I did think about in reading the above quote from HBP was that Snape claims he certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black. Well - did he? Shocked

I didn't think he had much to do with that. Is it not maybe the case that Snape is trying to take credit for certain events, in an attempt to show Bellatrix that he really is on the side of Voldemort? If so, perhaps the same is true of the death of Emmeline Vance.

JackieJLH

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:33 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

I have to say, I think that it is entirely possible that Snape did give Voldemort information that led to the death of an important Order member, and did it knowingly.

Now before anyone crucifies me for that statement Smile

(j/k) it is also possible that he did not. Personally, I'm leaning towards the last one I've listed, but that's just my opinion.

Possibility 1: He supplied info that, inadvertantly, led to Vance's death. It wasn't his intention, nor did it seem a likely outcome, but war is unpredictable, bad things happen, etc. And who is he hurting by taking the credit after the fact?

Possibility 2: He supplied info that should have caused a 'close call', but something went wrong, and Vance was located and subsequently killed in the process. Once again, even if he is sorry for her death, what harm comes of taking undue credit and further cementing Voldemort's trust in him?

Possibility 3: He knowing gave information to the Death Eaters that led to the death of a respected, valued Order member.

Now, possibilities 1 and 2 are relatively self-explanatory. Possibility 3 could have a few explanations of its own: either he, possibily along with some Order members, realized that he needed to give SOMETHING of use to Voldemort to be able to continue his spying for long. Emmeline Vance, while an 'old-school' Order member, is arguably not the most valuable.

She is not an Auror, nor does she have any (known) Ministry connections. She is not spying for the Order like Severus and Remus. And she is not filling any known, necessary post, like working as a professor or helping to guard Hogwarts. Of the known Order members, she is a better candidate than most to sacrifice for the greater good. Cold, and very wrong? Yes. Impossible? No.

And I personally doubt, what with the things he has probably had to do in the past to avoid suspicion, Snape would feel any substantial guilt for causing the death of a mere acquaintance. Hell, he manages to pull of killing Dumbledore without a flicker of doubt crossing his face (yeah, I know he flips out on Harry, but that's later, and when provoked), and if we believe that he was doing that with pure intentions, then this a very good example of his ability to get past any emotions he may be experiencing when necessary.

So this is a theory, though I have to admit, not mine. However, my personal theory does not paint the best picture of Snape, so read on at your own risk Smile

The more I reread the books and listen to JKR's interviews, the more I am convinced that Snape/Lily will be an important factor in the mystery surrounding Snape's motives. While I suspected it before, the new canon has hinted further at it, and I'm having a hard time doubting it. And while my first reaction to the book was, admittingly, a 'kneejerk response of NO-SNAPE-CAN-NOT-BE-EVIL-OMG!!!' fangirl-ness, and I still think that possible to a certain extent, (at this point, we can't really rule out any theories except for Snape/Giany Squid, can we?) I am beginning to suspect a darker side of Snape.

Not that I think Snape is loyal to Voldemort. I honestly don't see that, though as I said, I rule out nothing at this point. But I just don't think that the canon evidence fully supports Evil!Snape. My theory is a Snape that is truly loyal to no one but Lily - not Dumbledore, not Voldemort, not even really himself. My theory on the whole Snape/Lily thing is posted on another thread, titled 'For all the Snape/Lily shippers...', so I won't write out the whole thing again. But if my theory on that is correct, and Snape did only turn to the 'good' side because he wanted revenge on Voldemort over Lily's death, than it is really the Order's cause that he is loyal to, not the Order itself.

I can picture Snape deciding to ally himself with whoever is the best opponent of Voldemort. Do I think he holds no emotional attachment to Dumbledore? No, I think that he has grown close to Albus over the years, trusts him to a certain extent (well, more than most), and truly feels accepted by Dumbledore, if no one else. And he may very well feel extremely broken up over having to kill the one man he may truly have cared about. But I don't see him above sacrificing the life of someone, even an Order member, if it meant keeping himself in the best position to do serious damage to Voldemort.

_________________
~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

Verity Brown

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:04 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

JackieJLH wrote:

Not that I think Snape is loyal to Voldemort. I honestly don't see that, though as I said, I rule out nothing at this point. But I just don't think that the canon evidence fully supports Evil!Snape. My theory is a Snape that is truly loyal to no one but Lily - not Dumbledore, not Voldemort, not even really himself. My theory on the whole Snape/Lily thing is posted on another thread, titled 'For all the Snape/Lily shippers...', so I won't write out the whole thing again. But if my theory on that is correct, and Snape did only turn to the 'good' side because he wanted revenge on Voldemort over Lily's death, than it is really the Order's cause that he is loyal to, not the Order itself.

As painful as this idea is, it is nevertheless very plausible. Good thinking!

Verity

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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

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