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Garbo

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:25 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 2

Quote:

Anyway, onto my question: What happens if someone casts an 'incorrect' killing curse? Is it an all or nothing or could someone be blasted off their feet, knocked unconscious at some level in between completely ineffective and effective?

I remember in GOF that Crouch Jr. (Moody) was teaching them about the unforgivable curses. I think there was a line in his speech about the AK that said something like you could all point your wands at me and I would get nothing worse then a nose bleed. So I guess you need experience in the killing curse to pull off an effective one.

zooty

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:37 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

Yes, we have no idea when the body bind was released, very well could have been the moment of the AK. Shock is a very logical reason for Harry to stay in place. It also would have been easy for JKR to add a line like "feeling release from the hex, Harry stood motionless", since Harry goes on to use the breaking of the hex as proof for DD demise, this would add strength to the arguement. Sometimes what she leaves out is as important as what is said. Look at the prophecy from book 5, we know exactly what it is. Then we have the task that Draco is given by Voldemort in book 6, mentioned in the second chapter, and we still have no idea what it is exactly. Is it "You must kill Dumbledore by the end of term." or is it "You must appear before me within one year to tell me you have killed Dumbledore."? Setting up a phony death doesn't work for the first one, but the second, sure, it only requires the telling of the deed. Several people saw what happened, but the wording allows for wiggle room. Notice, JKR never states what exactly needs to be done.

On the portraits, I never assumed you had to be dead for a portrait. You don't have to be dead to be on a chocolate frog card. In canon it never says that the Headmaster must be dead to have a portrait, what if they just retire? DD was such a wiley old coot, I could see him chatting with his portrait, explaining his plans.

_________________
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.- L.Long

cassiopeia77

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:49 am

Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 7

The beauty of Harry Potter compared to other fantasy fics is the humanity of its characters. They are human beings with with hopes, desires, and fallibilities. They live in the real world. The relationship between Dumbledore and Snape highlights one of the most complex aspects of human relations - the nature of love and trust. We want to believe the best of our fellow men (and women) and we tend to turn a blind eye to their faults. Dumbledore is the ultimate humanitarian - he sees the potential in everyone, good and bad. Even to the end, as he pleads with Snape, appealing to the friend in front of him This is also illustrated in his dialogue with Draco before Snape shows up. He sees Draco's hesitance and offers his mother and him protection. Draco is the younger Snape. Rowling does not gloss over the reality that often times our trust is misplaced and betrayal is a fact of life. Evil or Very Mad

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:49 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

So, if our theorizing is correct, there are two definate requirements to cast an Avada Kedavra:

1. Hate, and lots of it. Repressed memories, bad childhoods, and torture are not required, but are beneficial.

2. Power, and experience. Hogwarts graduates will be considered before others.

Also, would you feel a curse being removed from you? Do you feel the magic letting up, or just the consequences of it being lifted, like your limbs relaxing?

There have been a couple mentions of feeling magic, but that has only been very strong, powerful magic. I kind of see it like static electricity: you don't notice a little bit, but you can practically feel it in the air if it's strong enough...

PS: Maybe JK purposely left out the line that Harry may have been in shock to create speculation...

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

PenAgainstSword

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:05 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 10

blah_blah_blah said:

Quote:

I know this leaves a lot of people's hopes bashed but I think we are grasping at straws.

By all means, dash our hopes! We NEED a devil's advocate. But, I must say that we're not grasping at straws, we are examining a new and intriguing, possibly important angle of Albus Dumbledore's death.

Whether we like Snape or not, we should still look at different theories and see what we can try to determine. Of course we won't know for sure about ANYTHING until book 7, but what else do we have but theorizing as we wait 2-3 years?

If you hate Snape, or if you don't, studying the possibilities is still a good thing to do.

Honestly, I think that this is a good point. I didn't really think about how he just flew into the air.

Maybe it is the power behind the hate that makes it whether or not the castee moves or not? I don't know about this aspect though because Tom Riddle hated his father to the point of it being unhealthy and he seemed to have just fallen in his place.

Maybe Snape hated what he had to do with such a passion or hated Dumbledore with such as passion that the power behind the AK curse actually MOVED the Headmaster?

Thoughts? Comments? Debunking? Devil's advocates?

blah_blah_blah

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:19 am

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 20

Pen:

I just think everyone is making too big of a deal about the death scene because

A) they don't want Dumbledore dead
B) they don't want Snape to be a murderer

and I don't either! But, hey, it's all there in black in white!

People said the scene was strange, and drawn out....

But JKR had a lot going on at the time and she couldn't write everything at once...you know?

Also people are talking about Dumbledore falling...remember when Sirius died? Wasn't that drawn out? Didn't it take forever for him to fall back through the veil....I think this is the same.

We are reading too much into the scene.

zooty

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:31 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

JKR is an author, one with a very well structured plot. She drops "inconsequential" description in and then uses that later in the books. She also gives us clues. Knowing that, I am looking for what she has said or has not said to clue me to what happens next. In the past, both Peter and Crouch Jr were dead...or maybe not.

Personally, I am not a big fan of Dumbledore; I think he acted as a manipulative fool in book 5. Snape, I have said is a petty man, looking out for his own benefit. I am searching for where JKR is trying to mislead us, so that there is a climatic ending.

_________________
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.- L.Long

zooty

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:54 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

On a side note, the elder Riddles were found:

"Lying there with their eyes wide open! Cold as ice! Still in their dinner things!"

No indication that they were tossed all over the room, due to the force of AK. If anger to the subject equals the extreme force of the AK, you would think that Tom had more hated in this situation than Snape had in his.

_________________
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.- L.Long

PenAgainstSword

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:18 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 10

blah_blah_blah:

I wasn't saying NOT to disagree, I was saying please disagree. I want to see all angles. I don't want a biased opinion. I just want to be able to see any possible outcome.

So, you think we're overanalyzing. So be it, that's your opinion and I respect it.

I'm not saying that he took forever to fall. I know that was for dramatic effect. I am curious as to why he moved, and why the other victims of Avada Kedavra didn't. As for Tom Riddle's father, I seriously doubted my own theory anyway, and was just tossing a thought out.

Besides, this is all in good fun! Very Happy

My buddy says: I hope that we're all overanalyzing a bit because I don't wanna know what Jo is gonna do. I want to be surprised. I don't want to think on it too hard. But, this is great fun, and all of your comments are intriguing. Very Happy

PenAgainstSword

_________________
"The 'ships are a-sinking!"

Pass me a bucket.

Lariff

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Calgary

Quote:

Also people are talking about Dumbledore falling...remember when Sirius died? Wasn't that drawn out? Didn't it take forever for him to fall back through the veil....I think this is the same.

Yeah, but you'll notice we don't know what kind of spell hit sirius, it never said. The spell might just have grazed him and he fell from trying to avoid it. The fact is, the veil is why he's dead. Not an AK.

_________________
"I trust Severus Snape completely"

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:40 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

One theory I had: Maybe AK reacts differently depending on the caster and the person recieving it. The spider, fox, and the Riddles had no magical powers, and with possibly the exception of the Riddles, the caster did it lazily and easily. Cedric was relatively powerful, but fright, shock, and exhaustion may have weakened him, but he was not even close to as powerful as Voldemort.

With Dumbledore, he has very considerable power, and Snape obviously had a lot of emotion while casting AK. At the moment I can't think of any other described AK's. We don't know much about the AK's that killed James and Lily, but I think that the power of the victim and emotion from the caster affect how the AK reacts to each victim.

But I could just be talking out of my ass...

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Owlbait

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:28 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Two Methyloctane wrote:

I think it has to do with the power of the caster, and how much energy/emotion/whatever they are putting into the spell. Remember Snape knocking Lockheart into the air with just a disarming spell back in CS? It was probably some combination of venting his considerable spleen at Lockheart and a desire to show off his own power that made him cast it so excessively.

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Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:41 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

But when Voldemort killed Cedric (and possibly the Riddles) the victims didn't do anything more than fall over. If it was simply because of the power of the caster, Cedric would've been thrown across the English Channel...

I agree that's part of it, but I think the magical strength of the victim has something to do with it as well. The curse needed a lot of force to break through Dumbledore's strength, and so I think it's like with waveforms, when two opposing waves meet and become a bigger wave, increasing the amplitude.

I think... I can see it in my head, but physics was a couple years ago... I hope it makes sense.

And on a related note, I cannot tell everyone how happy I am to be on a forum made up of adults... Mugglenet Interactive was just getting plain annoying with all the annoying 12 year olds who don't have any common sense or reasonable debate skills.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Owlbait

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:52 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Two Methyloctane wrote:

I realize now I wasn't quite clear what I meant. I think it takes a certain amount of power to drive a spell, if you put more power into the spell than is taken up by the spell, the excess goes into kinetic energy. A super-powerful but skilled caster would normally not put more power into the spell than necessary; that would be wasteful and a sign the caster is uncontrolled, poor style. Under extreme emotion, even a normally controlled person might go overboard.

To look at another example, in PoA, the trio knock out Snape with the same disarming spell. This time all three are casting it - so there is at least three times the spell power necessary to disarm him flying through the air. The result is he gets disarmed and also thrown back with great force.

Now, it may take more power to curse a magically powerful opponent, but I think the kinetic energy comes from the excess power, not the quantity of power necessary for the spell.

Of course I too could be talking out my backside, but this is an interesting bit of trivia. Any more examples you can think of that might shed light?

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Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:47 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Ah, okay, I understand you now... I agree.

It's odd... we're using physics to describe fictional magic! Wink

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

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