Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - My Why-Snape-Is-Not-Evil Theory (Spoilers)

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< The Library ~ My Why-Snape-Is-Not-Evil Theory (Spoilers)

blah_blah_blah

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:14 pm

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 20

odsbodkins2005 wrote:

I kind of get the feeling that Harry, Ron and Hermoine are kind of breaking away from the Order. Harry wouldn't even tell McGonnagall about where he had been with Dumbledore. I think it may be a case of the new young DA coming in to their own. Although obviously they will need the rest of the Order, but I can kind of see Harry taking over now.

I am wondering if Harry (also Ron & Hermione) will be working with Remus & Tonks. JKR really made a big deal about Tonks & Remus throughout HBP and then she "outed" them at the end of the book. I can't help but think she wasn't mentioning them lightly. I mean, it wasn't just filler. They must be important in book 7.

odsbodkins2005

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:17 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 17

blah_blah_blah wrote:

Where did Remus and Tonks come from anyway? I thought that was quite unexpected, or did I miss some major hints in the last book.

Sorry, off topic.

blah_blah_blah

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:22 pm

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 20

odsbodkins2005 wrote:

Where did Remus and Tonks come from anyway? I thought that was quite unexpected, or did I miss some major hints in the last book.

Sorry, off topic.

Yes, a bit off topic but I am guilty of it too! And I think most of the threads started about HBP have ventured away from where they started.

Anyway! There were several strange mentionings of Tonks and Remus throughout the book. Both of them looking "off" andd Molly pestering both of them and then the whole thing with Tonks and her new patronus shape. I wondered what it all meant and then the revelation happened at the end. But it all still seemed...odd...like I missed something or there is still more we will find out later (in the next book.)

Kismet

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:33 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 34

odsbodkins2005 wrote:

Kismet wrote:

He might not have continued at Hogwarts as a spy but he could have continued as a spy for the Order. I don't think the Order will fall to pieces (totally) without Dumbledore.

Sorry, my reply was in response to Lariff's statement that Snape made a slip up in chapter two when talking to Narcissa and Bellatrix.

Lariff

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:38 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Calgary

Quote:

He might not have continued at Hogwarts as a spy but he could have continued as a spy for the Order. I don't think the Order will fall to pieces (totally) without Dumbledore.

I agree with that, and that's why it surprised me that Snape said specifically Hogwarts and not the Order. I'm thinking it's an indication that he didn't know what Draco was supposed to do.

_________________
"I trust Severus Snape completely"

Animagus

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:05 pm

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 1

I read this with interest and it comforts me a great deal, because I just cannot bring myself to believe that Snape's evil. So here's some modest thoughts of mine....

Then there's the question of why Snape finally got the Dark Arts job. Dumbledore knew that the position was cursed (although Quirrell is going to require some explanation, after Dumbledore's assertion that no one has lasted more than a year in the position since Voldemort asked for it and was refused). I doubt very much that Dumbledore was willing to lose Snape as a teacher. So what made him finally change his mind?

That's really the big question, I think. Especially because I really thought before that Dumbledore might have kept Snape off the position because he feared a relapse. I sort of knew from the beginning that Snape might have to show, or pretend to show his true colours and maybe Dumbledore knew all about it, as you say, and thus knew he'd lose him as a teacher anyway.... because this is one of the strangest things about it, really. The job being jinxed might be another reason why Dumbledore never gave it to Snape, though. He might not have wanted to lose him, but now that he didn't see how it could be prevented...

I think--given that everything we've ever seen suggests that Snape tells Dumbledore everything--that Snape would have told Dumbledore about the vow. So there was every possibility that this was going to be Snape's last year at Hogwarts anyway, since he could hardly continue as a teacher if a) he were dead, from not fulfilling the oath, or b) he were accused of Dumbledore's murder. So there was no longer that reason to withhold the position from him.

Sounds 100% plausible.

And if Dumbledore knows, as I postulate, about the Vow, then he knows that either Draco or Snape will have to kill him, or else Snape dies. And Dumbledore (and, I think, Severus) are categorically not willing to allow Draco to taint his soul by such an act.

True. Dumbledore might have been trying to keep Snape alive, I never thought of it that way. I thought that he might just be forced (Snape, I mean) to finally show his true colours as Dumbledore's man, but you're right I guess, that he might not have survived....

I think the biggest key in this scene, though, is Dumbledore's character. Can you imagine the Albus Dumbledore we've known all this while begging for his life? Dumbledore does not fear death--we've had that pointed out over and over. Ergo, if he is not begging for his life (which I think he would not do), then he must be begging Severus for something else. And just a short while before this, Dumbledore had a little conversation with Harry about following his orders no matter what. Can you imagine just how hard it would be for a good Snape to have to kill Dumbledore?

Another good one which I didn't spot, though I did think that the hatred and disgust on Snape's face might have shown what he was feeling towards himself just then - not Dumbledore.

Finally, Snape has both the opportunity and the motivation to kill Harry. We've never seen Snape angrier than he was when Harry called him a coward and tried to use his own spell on him (just like James). But he doesn't kill Harry. In fact, he stops some other DEs from doing so, with the fairly lame excuse that "LV wants to kill Harry himself." (That's certainly not the excuse that he gave Bella for not having done so, back in chapter 2. And that would have been a much more plausible reason to use on her--especially at that moment when Bella was so concerned about "LV's word is law.")

True. And Dumbledore seemingly not knowing about the plot when speaking to Draco might have been him putting it on. Which would fit, if you postulated that he knew there was no way of getting around what happened in the end. But then why did Snape knock Flitwick out? Where was the need for that?

On the other hand, Snape's character would be kind of inconsistent, if he proved to be a really devoted follower of Voldemort's, wouldn't it?
It connects with what you said about him not killing Harry: On the one hand he hates Harry and he hated James - he has the chance of killing him, but doesn't and he even keeps others from doing it - saying that he should be left for V. But he didn't ever show as much devotion for V. before, did he? He never went into Azkaban or anything. He joined Dumbledore? For protection? Not sure... :/

Then again, didn't J.K. say somewhere that book 6 was to be book 2? If that's true, it rather suggests that Snape is actually evil. She'd sort of use him as the baddie-suspect in PS - and prove everyone who believes that wrong. Broken expectations- she's good at that. BUT then, Snape would have noticed during PS, or learned afterwards, that Voldemort was still around and would have decided to rejoin him, thus she would have broken our expectations AGAIN, because we only just got to believe that Snape's a kind-of-good guy and suddenly he turns out evil. (Thus HBP might have worked as a second book, even.)
And maybe, Snape is evil now and the broken expectation worked out even better, because she's been enspiring confidence in Snape for over four books. It would be kind of ingenious, because quite a shock to all of us - and it fits, plot-wise. Well, almost....
Oh. I don't know....
I'm tired and I'm devastated. Am I even making any sense?

Crying or Very sad

Maybe cannon should just end with book four. Sirius alive and well and things nice and easy....

Garbo

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:05 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 2

First of all I want to say that before reading all that's been said here, I thought Snape was evil. This is probably because Dumbledore was my favorite character and Snape killed him.

But now after reading this, I now believe that Snape is still on the good side.

There were a lot of things said that I have responses to, but by the time I reread all five pages and found what I wanted to talk about, I would have another page or so of new posts to read.

So I chose this recent quote to respond to:

Quote:

Maybe cannon should just end with book four. Sirius alive and well and things nice and easy....

Yeah that would be good, except for the fact that Voldemort had just got his body back. But maybe that would be ok as long as Dumbledore stayed alive.

Yeah that's all.

Moyra

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:44 am

Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Southern Germany

I can only agree with a lot guys here - especially animagus, Lariff and odsbodkins - concerning the inner attitude of Severus Snape.

He´s also DD´s man through and through, perhaps more than Harry, because S. had to do the "evil dead" of killing his mentor and friend. One of the most courageous things I can imagine to do. But nethertheless I was dumbstruck shocked when I read this the first time. (BTW, I´m not able yet to picture post-DD live at Hogwarts, at the Order, at the fight against LV ...)

Anyway, I think, DD was dying at this moment, because of the potion he drunk in the cave and probably because of the by-effects of his black hand. Perhaps in the first place he drunk this dangerous potion because these by-effects would have killed him (painfully?!?) in the long way in any case.
At this moment it was even an act of mercy, because Fenrir was there ready to jump at DD and bite him to death! Certainly more painful to die than at a "simple" Avada Kedavra.

An other POV for me to concider Snape as not as horrible or even as evil a person is the way he´s portrayed in HBP. He´s more calm than ever, he´s the least harsh, mean, malicious, cruel and hateful than in any other book. He´s even compassionate in handling the situation with Narcissa in the second chap.
But we see all the events through Harry´s eyes, we read a lot of his mistrust to and his hate for Snape, and that´s what is in the forehead after the end of the book. Therefore I reread all the chaps where Snape is in action in any kind, and I´ll stand to my opinion that he´s not so terrific as many see him. What won´t say that he´s any easy, lovable, nice guy ... Wink

The only point where he really lost his temper was when Harry accused him to be a coward for killing DD. Very understandable, because he didn´t want to do that in the first place, ever, never. But he´s always the one who has to do what has to be done.

What I can´t stomach is the attitude of the Order members, easily accepting that Severus is the traitor he seems to be. I hope it´s only because of the first shock of DD´s death and that they will come to their sense and that they´ll interrogate Harry for more details. And I hope that Harry will be able to tell the whole story, for example that DD knew of the danger of the potion and that he let Harry explicitly promise to follow his orders and so on.

But enough for the moment – that´s not the subject of this thread here.

What remains is that Snape is more ambiguous than ever!!

Lariff

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:27 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Calgary

Quote:

He´s more calm than ever, he´s the least harsh, mean, malicious, cruel and hateful than in any other book.

That's true. In the other books he would always blow up, and we haven't seen any of that. In fact, we barely heard him speak directly to Harry.

_________________
"I trust Severus Snape completely"

sani

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:02 pm

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Location: USA

I agree with most of the posts that Snape will turn out to be not completely evil. I just think from all of JKR's books she always has us belive something and then turns it around. In the first book we thought that Snape was trying to kill Harry, and then JK reveiled it was Quirell(sp?). The we thought that Sirius was evil and then it turn out he was not. I think that the book 7 will be the same way. I think we will find out that Snape is still on the good side, because it would be way to obvious to have him be actually very evil.

_________________
"In Severus Snape I trust"

Owlbait

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:34 am

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

I'm rereading Spinner's End, and I think there are a couple of interesting discrepencies between Snape's explanation of his actions to Bellatrix, and what we know to be true.

First there is his self-incrimination regarding informing on the order:

"The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."

Here is my question - what could Severus have told Voldemort that led to Sirius'es death? We know for a fact that it was Kreacher who told Narcissa that Harry loved Sirius and would probably do anything to rescue him. We also know that Voldemort learned about the mental tie between himself and Harry when Harry saw him as Nagini attach Arthur Weasely so it wasn't Snape who betrayed that either. I can't think of any other crucial piece of information which might have led to Sirius being in the MOM that night.

Now I don't put it past Snape for a moment to take the credit for it, in order to deceive Bellatrix. If he is doing so regarding Siruis it is also possible that he is lying regarding his role in Emmaline's death. Really, we can't take anything Snape says to anyone at face value unless perhaps he is so angry he's forgotten himself.

The second discrepency about which I am curious is in regarding his explanation of how he came to Hogwarts:

"I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he embraced me with open arms -- though, as I say, never allowing me nearer the Dark Arts than he could help."

The phrase 'fresh from my Death Eater days' sounds as if he is telling Bellatrix he went to Dumbledore after the Voldemort was defeated, when he believed the Dark Lord gone for good. We know from Dumbledore though, that Snape came to him before the Potters were killed.

The third thing I wondered about is Dumbledore's injury:

"The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were."

Now, how likely do you think it is that Snape does not know how Dumbledore came by his injury? That is surely information of vital importance to Voldemort, but Snape is passing it off without saying anything about it.

I realize none of the above proves anything, but they are points worth keeping in mind, for when we finally get our hands on book seven.

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Owlbait at Occlumency: http://occlumency.sycophanthex.com/viewuser.php?uid=3671

Verity Brown

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:57 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Owlbait wrote:

Here is my question - what could Severus have told Voldemort that led to Sirius'es death?

I can think of one thing: the fact that Sirius is important enough to Harry that Harry could be lured to the Ministry by the belief that Sirius had been captured and was being tortured there.

However, that doesn't really account for Sirius coming to the Ministry, does it? In fact, I've never understood Harry's feeling that it was Snape's fault that Sirius died. Yes, Snape did taunt Sirius with having to stay put at home. But come on, they're at least marginally adults. To suggest that Snape is responsible for Sirius's choices is ridiculous. So there's no rational reason to place the blame for Sirius's death on Snape. Sirius came to the Ministry because he was afraid for Harry. The fact that he was killed there is not, in any way that I can discern, Snape's fault. Any of the group--kids or Order members--could have been killed there.

Harry was in such a rush to rescue Sirius on his own that he couldn't be bothered to stop and check in at headquarters on the way to the Ministry, at least to try to get some better reinforcements than a bunch of other kids. In a very real sense, it was Harry's own foolishness that resulted in Sirius's presence at the Ministry. So if blame is going to be passed out, Harry should get quite a large share. I was rather disappointed (but perhaps not surprised) that he is avoiding taking his share of the blame for that in HBP.

Also, Harry has been conveniently ignoring the fact that Snape did eventually alert the Order to the possibility that Harry and Co. had gone to the Ministry. If the Order hadn't shown up, it's very possible that all of the kids could have died. The only element in all of this that I think might cast blame on Snape is the fact that it took him a while to decide to alert the Order that Harry was missing. He ought to know, better than most, that Harry is very likely to have run off half-cocked to try to save the day on his own.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Seamoor

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:55 am

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

I think you have made some very good points, Verity.

I've had a thought too--

I don't think Snape is the Half-Blood Prince at all. I'm almost positive I read in an interview that JKR said he was a pure-blood.

With all the warnings in the early chapters for people to check that a person really is who he appears to be, and all the talk later on about Polyjuice Potion, I think it quite likely that Dumbledore may not have really died, or Snape really killed him.

Seamoor

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:57 am

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

Verity Brown

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:31 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Seamoor wrote:

I don't think Snape is the Half-Blood Prince at all. I'm almost positive I read in an interview that JKR said he was a pure-blood.

Nope, she didn't say that. In fact, she hinted that he might not be. That was one of the clinchers, for me, to my pre-HBP theory that he wasn't a pureblood.

It's clear from HBP that Snape is the Half-Blood Prince. He makes that plain to Harry in their final duel scene. (And Hermione had already figured it out.)

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

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