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< The Library ~ My Why-Snape-Is-Not-Evil Theory (Spoilers) |
| delphi |
 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:56 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| I think Snape has retained his white hat status for several reasons. In re-reading the things that DD said while drinking the potion, it almost seemed to me to be a replay of Snape's memories. One of the last comments he makes sounds like what Lily was saying before Voldemort killed her. This would place Snape at GH that night. I think he knew what the plan for Draco was and was cornered by Narcissa when she asked for the unbreakable vow. I think DD was also well aware of it and was insisting that Snape perform. He is still the only one truly in a position to help Harry fulfill the prophesy. It occurs to me that in OotP it appeared to Harry that Snape was using DD pensive. I am wondering if DD wasn't keeping all of Snape's truly emotional memories, those he might not be able to hide from Voldemort in his own head. It obviously wasn't safe keeping them in a pensive. When Dumbledore's body burst into flames and Harry thought he saw a phoenix fly out of the smoke, perhaps it was a communication set in place to be delivered on DD's death. It will be interesting to see who assumes control of the Order. I had assumed it would be Snape. |
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| Lariff |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:08 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Calgary
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I think while leaving the grounds, Snape was all CAPSy with Harry, because he was frustrated that he didn't have the time to explain what happened. He seemed distressed that Harry was so upset with him. He seemed like he was in pain, at least that's way I perceived it.
Now he just needs to find a way to get the Order to hear him out.. and once that's done, I think he would be the most logical choice to head up the Order. The only thing then would be, does he keep this from LV or does he somehow spin a nice little tale about how the Order still trusts him implicitly, even after the DD incident.
LV isn't exactly stupid, so I think that little tale might be hard to pull off. Oh well we'll see I suppose.
But I'm adamant in my beliefs that Snape was acting on DDs orders, and that he's still inherently Light, if not the nicest guy ever. |
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| Kherezae |
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:09 am |
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Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Maryland
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| Oh, wow, the idea that Harry saw a Patronus phoenix communication in the smoke at Dumbles' funeral is... interesting. I wouldn't put it past JKR. |
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| Delirium |
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:11 am |
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 34
Location: New York
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| I don't know if this has been brought up, but there were also comments made by Phinaeus Nigellis (well, the protrait), and he would most likely have been privy to whatever went on in Dumbledore's office between Snape and Dumbledore. |
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| Isobel L |
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:48 am |
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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I think that JKR's underlying message throughout the series, that love is the most potent power, would be undermined if Snape did kill Dumbledore with malicious intent. How would that serve the plot? It would only discredit Dumbledore and his unshakeable faith in Snape and therefore taint what he tried to teach Harry about love in HBP. His death would have been for nothing then and that doesn't sit well with me. I agree with all of the readers who believe that Snape acted on orders from Dumbledore and that they had been previously arranged. Dumbledore had been shown as capable of making mistakes but to have made an error of this magnitude, after categorically stating, throughout the whole series, that Snape was trustworthy, just isn't on.
Add to that the fact that almost everything Snape has done in the series initially looks bad but is seen in a different light eventually. Why should this example be any different? The fact that he didn't harm Harry at the end and in fact kept him from harm at the hands of another deatheater leaves me feeling pretty confident that he is very much the same as he ever was. As for some reader's concerns that he's just too horrible, well he hasn't changed there either. Once again he's acting in a manner that provokes distrust while he childishly snarls, stomps, screams, spits and endlessly metes out emotional abuse. I can't imagine he's going to get any nicer now that he has to live with what he was forced to do.
I really hope that Snape won't end up the tragic hero; not entirely redeemable so therefore sacrificed in the end in the name of morality.
Why is it all the guys that capture my imagination end up dead? Damn. |
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| Marston Chicklet |
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:56 am |
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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So basically, I agree with all the why-Snape-is-not-evil points. But there's one more that everyone keeps missing. Everything is told from Harry's POV. In every other book, what Harry thinks is going on is wrong, but for some reason or the other in this book, he appears to be right. Either he finally got lucky or there is a twist. Personally, I'm leaning towards the twist--the other option just doesn't fit with JKR's writing style thus far. It would be too simple, and whatever else her writing may be, the plot is never simple.
Personally, if she were to make it that simple, I would take it as an insult to my intelligence... That said, watch me be wrong. |
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| ashley_mc_3 |
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:12 pm |
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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Jk herself has said that Snape has a redemptive pattern and this will be shown in book 7.
Also she has said that in the movie for Prisoner of Azakaban she was rather taken aback at the hints which where present in it as to the outcome of Snape, and that she had told Alan Rickman things about his character, which she had never told anyone else, in order to help him play his role. It always struck me as odd that Snape would shield Harry, Ron and Hermione from the werewolf, placing himself in harms way.
Also I think that having Snape reveal himself as evil at this point is extremly odd for JK. It's far to cut and dry for her style of writing to have the answer to is he or isn't he answered so early and in such a simple manner.
However unfortanetly we all could have a couple of years of waiting and debating before the final verdict is in. |
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| SlytherinSexGod |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:02 am |
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Joined: 19 Jul 2005
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ashley_mc_3 wrote: Jk herself has said that Snape has a redemptive pattern and this will be shown in book 7.
Also she has said that in the movie for Prisoner of Azakaban she was rather taken aback at the hints which where present in it as to the outcome of Snape, and that she had told Alan Rickman things about his character, which she had never told anyone else, in order to help him play his role. It always struck me as odd that Snape would shield Harry, Ron and Hermione from the werewolf, placing himself in harms way.
Also I think that having Snape reveal himself as evil at this point is extremly odd for JK. It's far to cut and dry for her style of writing to have the answer to is he or isn't he answered so early and in such a simple manner.
However unfortanetly we all could have a couple of years of waiting and debating before the final verdict is in.
sigh... two more years... thank god for fanfiction. |
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| odsbodkins2005 |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:11 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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I do believe Snape is innocent, but I'll play Devil's Advocate here...
A lot of the theories are based on the fact that Snape made the vow with Narcissa to prove his loyalty to Voldemort. I did consider that Snape didn't even know what Bellatrix and Narcissa was talking about, and was bluffing, but why didn't he just say,
"Listen ladies, I'm not interfering in what the Dark Lord wants, and neither should you."
Would that not prove his loyalty too? Maybe more so, because he's not challenging Voldemort's orders that Draco should kill Dumbledore. |
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| blah_blah_blah |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:25 pm |
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Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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odsbodkins2005 wrote: "Listen ladies, I'm not interfering in what the Dark Lord wants, and neither should you."
Would that not prove his loyalty too? Maybe more so, because he's not challenging Voldemort's orders that Draco should kill Dumbledore.
Perfect! He was not forced to meke the vow! Yes, "Cissy" (jeeze) was there crying and begging and Bellatrix was there just itching to cast crucio (or worse), but Snape still did not have to take the vow. He did that on his own free will and he even seemed glad to do it.
But of course, people can argue somthing like this:
Snape, being a spy, knew that LV wanted Draco to kill Dumbledore and Snape already told Dumbledore about it and Dumbledore begged Snape to do whatever it took to "save Draco's poor innocet soul" and Dumbledorte probably already knew he was dying because maybe the issue with his withered hand was worse than we thought; it was spreading and killing him slowly and there was nothing that would save him from a slow painful death so Snape was reallly showing mercy by killing him quickly.
Maybe in some warped way that might be possible but we still have the issue of Draco. LV ordered Draco to kill Dumbledore. Draco did not kill Dumbledore. Draco failed. How does LV feel about failures?
So, if Dumbledore did ask Snape to kill him to save Draco (rolls eyes) it was all for nothing because LV is going to be pissed! |
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| Lariff |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:26 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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Location: Calgary
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Quote: I did consider that Snape didn't even know what Bellatrix and Narcissa was talking about, and was bluffing, but why didn't he just say,
"Listen ladies, I'm not interfering in what the Dark Lord wants, and neither should you."
Because if he said that, he would have no legitimate reason to question Draco about his plans afterwards. I hardly think that Draco, smart as he is, would just accept that his mother asked Snape to watch over him, without checking with his mother first. |
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"I trust Severus Snape completely" |
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| Lariff |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:46 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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Location: Calgary
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I was just rereading Spinner's End and there is one line in particular that convinces me that Snape, at the time, was not aware of the plan:
Quote: "He intends for me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as a spy."
Now, although it's never been a garantee that Hogwarts would close without Dumbledore, it should be plainly obvious to both Voldie and Snape that without DD, Hogwarts would be in such shambles that there wouldn't be so much of a war resistance coming from there. So what would be the use of Snape as a spy? Wasn't Snape placed there to spy on Dumbledore in the first place? This little slip up makes me certain that Snape wasn't yet aware of the plan. |
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"I trust Severus Snape completely" |
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| SlytherinSexGod |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:52 pm |
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Joined: 19 Jul 2005
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| maybe he didn't know, but wanted to find out? and that the only possible way for him to find out was to agree to the Vow? and after he knew, we was shocked, and refused to do it? which caused the argument between Snape and Dumbledore that Hagrid overheard? Snape refused to do it but Dumbledore said that he must? |
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| Kismet |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:05 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 34
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| He might not have continued at Hogwarts as a spy but he could have continued as a spy for the Order. I don't think the Order will fall to pieces (totally) without Dumbledore. |
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| odsbodkins2005 |
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:08 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Kismet wrote: He might not have continued at Hogwarts as a spy but he could have continued as a spy for the Order. I don't think the Order will fall to pieces (totally) without Dumbledore.
I kind of get the feeling that Harry, Ron and Hermoine are kind of breaking away from the Order. Harry wouldn't even tell McGonnagall about where he had been with Dumbledore. I think it may be a case of the new young DA coming in to their own. Although obviously they will need the rest of the Order, but I can kind of see Harry taking over now. |
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