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RachelW

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:00 pm

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

The board seemed to be moving a bit slow, so I thought maybe it would be good to have anothre topic to discuss.

The fandom seems to have a division between those who want canon only pairings in fanfic (diehard Ron/Hermione shippers for example) and those who like to see less conventional, but still somewhat believable (Snape/Hermione).

Now, then there's the further end of that an going into pairings that seem absoutely unbelievable. Some don't like that simply because the possibility in canon is ziltch. However, I think it's a great challenge to write two unlikely people coming together believably. I've read a few fics just to see if it's possible, and have seen something that is totally unlikely, and seems totally wrong on the surface, written in a believable way. It takes talent to do that.

So, what is your preference and why? Do you think we should just stick to what Rowling is likely to write or at least condone (which puts all the HG/SS shippers right out the door), or do you like to see the unconventional?

The only problem is, the more unconventional it is, the harder it is to do it. I can count on my fingers the good, believable Lucius/Hermione stories (and I'd love to see some more of the well known good writers tackle that one).

azazello

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:58 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

While I am a fairly loud canon thumper, I feel the point of fanfic is also to say "What if?" and that allows us to go away from what looks like being canon.

I think it's going to be Ron/Hermione in final canon (and Snape nobody, except for a long ago unrequited Lily) - and while that need not be a disaster for a girl to pull an essentially nice and loyal guy (please remember canon!Ron is not the eejit he is in the movies) we can play around a bit.

Within reason, mind! Sorry Hermione/Lucius is something I can never believe because he is such an entrenched racist. Therefore the only possible pairing I could see would either mean his being OOC, or non-con. Neither of which are for me.

BTW, the lj user, curia_regis (fanfic writer Ayla Pascal) is a keen LM/HG fan, you should check out her journal for linkies.

I cannot easily buy pairings between enemies, and as for incest- or breach of trust (say, Harry/Sirius) they are out too.

And I do not like splitting canon pairings, so stories which suggest that Severus fathered Harry on an unfaithful Lily is not something I care for either. Even if I do ship Severus/Lily (and a lot more than I ship SS/HG).

However, within those parameters, you have a fairly wide range of potential pairings.

I now believe firmly that the right writer can make the oddest pairing (provided it isn't utterly daft like Dumbledore/Squid) plausible.

Think Draco/Neville's a non starter? Try reading A J Hall's "Lust over Pendle" and the sequels.

Certain people on my lj friendlist followed some links in a recs list I suggested and found Snape/Hagrid and did not come back and threaten to lynch me the next day.

Cant buy Snape and Sirius Black? Read fics by Fabula Rasa.

SS/Hg fans might not know the history of their pairing, but it is interesting. Here's a brief run down.

It started in 2000 with a fic writer aged 13 called Lupin Lover who writes the first SS/HG fic and is nearly howled off ffnet. That fic is no longer anywhere on the net. However, an adult (and far better writer) takes that story and sequels it. The writer is Textualsphinx and her story, "Letter from Exile one Merciful Morning" is still one of the great classics of the pairing. Essentially, it is the mother ship. Laughing

At this point, SS/Hg is still a bit of a squick and the WIKTT list is formed in 2001 as a splinter group from the old Snapefans list, where SS/HG is pretty much anathema.

Then it kicks off. Pawn to Queen is being written (and whether you like it or not - I don't it generates bigger interest in this offbeat pairing).

That was three four years ago. The rest springs from that.

The pairing is big now. Over-big, some have said. I'm inclined to agree.

It's odd that ship stories have pretty much outstipped OFC stories in popularity. Eventually, as mature readers get fed up with the ongoing rehash of SS/HG stories, I think we'll get a backlash to SS/OFC stories. Who knows. Or as more canon comes out, we might have more canon character pairings to choose from. Who knows.

snapeaddict

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:24 pm

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

azazello wrote:

While I am a fairly loud canon thumper, I feel the point of fanfic is also to say "What if?" and that allows us to go away from what looks like being canon.

My words exactly. It's all about "What if?".

I can imagine a lot of pairings but am not likely to read some of them. It's quite possible, some good writers may make them appear believable and credible but they probably wouldn't interest me all that much. Draco/Neville for example. Sure, it's a challenge to make such an odd pairing credible but it's just not for me.

I'm not much of a Snape/HG shipper as there is not the slightest hint in canon to that. Nevertheless, I greatly enjoyed some Snape/HG fics I've read. And I'd have to agree to what you say about Lucius/HG, too. She doesn't really fit his prey-pattern. Then again, sometimes it is fascinating to see people move away from canon without being starkly OOC.

I'm very much into well-written OCs paired with canon characters. Don't know why. I like OCs, as long as they are no Mary Sues. (I enjoyed "Forbidden Fruit" by Leonora Christina Karlsson on Pureblood, for example). I think, those are my favourite pairings actually. And pairings that already exist in canon or are hinted at. I like Lucius/Narcissa for example and wouldn't mind Hermione/Ron or Harry/Cho or Harry/Ginny. I prefer adult pairings though.

Okay, I'm starting to sound picky here. *lol* I'm just talking about which pairings I like and enjoy.

But as I believe Fan Fiction is all about experimenting and fun, I think almost anything is possible and I'm willing to read almost anything if it's well written. I'm not too much of a slash enthusiast though and I would also have to agree on Dumbledore/Squid. Very Happy

That would definitely be a no go! Oh, and I agree on incest or breach of trust too. I wouldn't read those.

RachelW

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:04 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

azazello wrote:

Within reason, mind! Sorry Hermione/Lucius is something I can never believe because he is such an entrenched racist. Therefore the only possible pairing I could see would either mean his being OOC, or non-con. Neither of which are for me..

I don't care for Lucius/HG non-con...which is why I can count the good stories on my fingers. I've spent hours looking for good LM/HG or even LM/OFC stories that aren't non-con, written as porn. Lucius gets tossed into the cardboard cutout 'bad guy rapist' role when people want to write non-con and really I hate to see that.

What I find interresting about this pairing is the conflict of worldview, belief systems, his racism espically...how does he get over that? I've seen a few where he justifies it by saying he's not going to have children with her...which sounds a whole lot to me like the horrid attitudes of some slave owners before the American Civil war who had no problem carying on a relationsihp with their slaves, but still saw them as inferior, but a few went beyond that (I have a distant great-great-great-something uncle back on one side of my family who ended up getting shuned from the family about 150 years ago for freeing, and marying a slave of his and having a lot of kids with her). Anyway, what's interresting about the pairing to me, is the charachter development that takes place in order for it to happen. I think the good ones adress his racism, either head on or in a roundabout way, but it does get addressed in some way.

azazello wrote:

And I do not like splitting canon pairings, so stories which suggest that Severus fathered Harry on an unfaithful Lily is not something I care for either. Even if I do ship Severus/Lily (and a lot more than I ship SS/HG). .

Agreed. Don't like it when Sirius or Lupin turn up as Harry's father in fanfic either. It's a matter of taking canon as Rowling has presented it, and then moving the charachters...believably...together, even if Rowling would never think to put them together.

azazello wrote:

I now believe firmly that the right writer can make the oddest pairing (provided it isn't utterly daft like Dumbledore/Squid) plausible. <snip>
Certain people on my lj friendlist followed some links in a recs list I suggested and found Snape/Hagrid and did not come back and threaten to lynch me the next day.

It takes talent to make Snape/Hagrid believable, and then it also goes beyond stories written for their pornographic fantasy factor. Really, Hagrid and Snape in bed is not the stuff of fantasy, but as a story, a friendship moving into romance, in the hands of a good writer who keeps them in charachter, it can be done, and done well. And, some people were so impressed they went and rec'd a Snape/Hagrid story and likely got laughed at from many sources. Wink

Then, some people get really silly...saw a Lucius/Pimpcane oneshot on Pureblood the other day...it was a combination of hilarity and 'I can't believe I'm reading this'...it was funny, and kind of sick.

azazello wrote:

It's odd that ship stories have pretty much outstipped OFC stories in popularity. Eventually, as mature readers get fed up with the ongoing rehash of SS/HG stories, I think we'll get a backlash to SS/OFC stories. Who knows. Or as more canon comes out, we might have more canon character pairings to choose from. Who knows.

I hope there are a few new charachters...decent ones, coming up in Half Blood Prince...maybe a decent DADA professor? Of course, in the last book she introduced Firenze, but I don't think there's much following on shippers including him (at least I hope not). I like OFC stories too when they're not Sues, they're just harder to find than the canon pairings.

I'll be checking out some of the authors you reccomended...I have read Fabula Rasa's 'Rat's Alley' series...SS/SB with Vampire!Snape, it was good. I think I may have read some of Curia Regis's stuff, and I'll go check her out to be sure.

liquidscissors

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:57 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

http://www.sweetandsour.netfirms.com

Bernice/iibnf was the first person to guide me through Snape/Hagrid, and she's one of the few people who can make that pairing work, and really work at that.

Diana

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:45 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I think that it really comes down to personal taste, creativity, and at least some canon undertones. I do not believe that all possible pairings (i.e. each and every character) are in fact plausible.

I'm very into HG/SS stories at the moment. However, I was spoiled early on in my journey with HG/SS, and I'm finding it more difficult to find compelling and well written stories for my particular ship.

Despite the fact that I prefer HG/SS in my fan fiction, I would not be pleased if it were to surface in canon per J.K. Rowling. I can understand how odd and confusing that may sound, but HG/SS is just not something I care to see actually happen.

I really don't ship anyone in the canon world, with the exception of perhaps RW/HG and SS/LE (note that I did not say LP, as I do not see Lily as an individual capable of adultry).

I have to admit that I do have a strange fascination with HG/LM, but not in the sense that I go out of my way to look for stories featuring them. I've read a total of two LM/HG stories that I deemed acceptable, and I found both by accident.

I think one of the interesting trends in the HP fandom community is the abundance of OFC's, in particular female OFC's. It is an odd thing to find a HG/OFC story or a GW/OFC story. It is usually only the male characters who get paired with these original characters. I attribute the female OFC to young female fan fiction writers. I generally avoid these stories like the plague, simply because I do not have the time nor desire to read fangirl fantasy. I do realize that not all original characters shape up in the fangirl fashion, perhaps I am simply too cautious for my own good.

I have read a few well written OFC stories, but I find that they are few and far between. Perhaps once the newness wears off of HG/SS and HG/Any Breathing Male in Canon, the issue will improve.

I will admit that there is one particular non-canon pairing that really burns my toast...Ginny Weasley and Draco Malfoy. I'm sorry, but I cannot even suspend belief long enough to read the story summary.

RachelW

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:04 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

Diana wrote:

I'm very into HG/SS stories at the moment. However, I was spoiled early on in my journey with HG/SS, and I'm finding it more difficult to find compelling and well written stories for my particular ship. .

I've been branching out into Lucius/OFC and Snape/OFC for this reason. I started reading 'The Knight Errant Chronicles' which is on Occlumency and Lumos...excellent story of high caliber quality, and a unique OFC. 'Leda' is another story which was very good, and is over on Lumos and is Lucius/OFC. It's hard to find OFC's who aren't just author fantasy inserts with a bunch of superpowers, but the ones I've found that are good, are really really good when I do find them.

Diana wrote:

Despite the fact that I prefer HG/SS in my fan fiction, I would not be pleased if it were to surface in canon per J.K. Rowling. I can understand how odd and confusing that may sound, but HG/SS is just not something I care to see actually happen. .

Probably no chance of that...I'm not sure what I would think if Rowling did have that happen...but I don't think she ever would just because she's only going to write seven books, and so it would be a Student/Teacher relationship which I think she would see as wrong on so many levels both as a former teacher and as a parent (I remember reading she was a teacher at one time). Now...if she wrote an epilogue as in what happens ten years down the road and Hermione and Snape are together, or getting together, I'd be really interrested...but, I can't imagine she'd do that and I wonder what she thinks of all the HG/SS shippers out there.

Diana wrote:

I've read a total of two LM/HG stories that I deemed acceptable, and I found both by accident. .

Curious, what were they? Just on the off chance I haven't seen them...I'm always on the lookout for a believable and well-written Lucius/Hermione, they're so rare I'll jump to see them.

Diana

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:01 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

One of them was titled The Best Revenge. I'm unsure as to who authored the story.

The other story is no longer online.

NeoQBirdie

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:23 am

Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Quote:

I attribute the female OFC to young female fan fiction writers. I generally avoid these stories like the plague, simply because I do not have the time nor desire to read fangirl fantasy. I do realize that not all original characters shape up in the fangirl fashion, perhaps I am simply too cautious for my own good.

I very much feel the same way when it comes to OFCs. Part of this is because I love reading fics that follow cannon rules, and OFCs are definitly the antithesis of that, for the very fact that those characters do not exist in the Harry Potter world. Then there is the ever present fangirl fantasy, which you mentioned. No matter how good the writers (even professionals are guilty of this), it is difficult to write about original protagonists who have absolutely nothing in common with your own wants and wishes. I believe this goes doubly for any writer creating one original protagonist to be paired off with his or her favorite character.

Although there are striking, well written fics in the genre, I would almost always rather read a well written fic either about pairing already existing characters, or all original characters.

~Birdie

Razzberry

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:01 am

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

I'm finding the comments about OFCs largely entertaining if for no other reason than that there is a significant *lack* of characters in the HP world that are so well developed in canon that they can be put into fanfiction without the author making it up as she goes along.

For instance, I boggle at the concept of fanfiction involving Pansy Parkinson. Or fanfic involving Bill and/or Charlie Weasley. We have little snippets about these characters, but no so much that fanfiction can claim to share much more than a name with them.

I find it amusing at best to read fiction that pairs, say, Hooch and Snape. We don't know enough about Hooch to make that realistic in a canon concept, so she's given a life of her own so to speak. If all you know about a character is that she likes Quidditch, is knowledgeable about brooms, has short grey hair and yellow, wolf-like eyes... why not just create an OFC to spec and leave Hooch alone for further development from JKR?

There are two ways to classify characters: round/flat and static/dynamic. Round characters are fully developed. Flat characters are partially developed. Static characters can be either round or flat, but they stay largely the same. Dynamic characters can be either round or flat, but they grow.

Round, dynamic characters in canon-- Ron, Hermione, Harry, Snape, Dumbledore. These are the characters we could really make good, solid judgements about, and who have evolved over the course of the books.

Flat, dynamic characters-- Neville, Ginny, Luna, most of the Gryffindors in Harry & Co's year... There are probably others but I can't think of them. They're characters who have evolved over the course of the books, but we don't know a huge lot about them. I suspect that Ginny is going to be moving into the round and dynamic realm in the next book, and it won't surprise me if Neville does too.

Round, static characters-- Draco, Lupin, McGonagall, Sybil, Lavender, Parvati, the Weasley twins, Percy, most of the teachers we've met... These are the characters who really have a fair bit of development behind them, but who haven't changed. McGonagall as she is in OotP is easily recognizable as the same woman we first met in PS. Sybil is as batty as always, Lupin remains forever mild-mannered, Lavender and Parvati were giggling in the first book and they're still giggling in the fifth. Draco is still a bragging, drawling snob.

Flat and static characters-- Gilderoy Lockhart, most of the other students. Most of the Death Eaters, most of the Order of the Phoenix. The two older Weasleys, Fleur... in other words, most of the other characters we've seen.

Now, the round and dynamic characters are perfect for fanfic, and the round static ones aren't a bad choice. The flat ones, though... With the exception of Ginny and Neville whom I classified as flat and dynamic but whom I think are becoming more rounded, I'd say all the others are too flat to really work with beyond letting them be living scenery.

Now, I can see the lure of a Gilderoy Lockhart. He might be flat, but he's hilarious. I can see the lure of Draco or even Lucius because they already have significant roles.

But when I see fanfic with Fleur, I want to say 'what's the point?' WHy not create a new character who you don't have to worry about keeping true to canon?

I have some general gripes about the use of characters, though. Even as an OFC fan, I get bored with OFCs who look, walk and talk like, say, Hermione. There are a few too many student OFCs who are essentially Hermione with prettier hair and I want to ask 'if you want to write about the brightest, most talented witch in the school, why not use the one who's already there? Why create a new one?'

But if you're talking about pairing Snape (or Lupin) with an adult woman, give me a good OFC who is a believable fit into the HP world. If the only thing the character has in common with canon is a name, I'm sorry, she's an OC.

RachelW

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:00 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

Razzberry wrote:

I agree here. Hermione is really the only well developed female charachter(McGonagall somewhat, and I'd like to see her in more fanfic too, went looking for some today). Someone said something to me once about being upset that I'd killed off Narcissa in a fic because they'd always liked her charachter and I was like, What? All we know about her is she sends Draco cookies, has blonde hair, and looks like she' smelling something nasty. That's it. And, she's married to Lucius and she helped raise Draco...so, can't say there's much to like there. lol. Same goes for others like Blaise Zabini...he's a 'stringy' slytherin boy, yet there are diehard shippers who like Blaise/Hermione or Blaise/whoever. He's nothing more than a name and a body who is in Slytherin, so anyone writing him in a fic is basically writing an OC who is male and Slytherin.

I think there is a large bias agains OFC's because of the prevelance over on ff.net and aff.net of 'American Transfer Student Sue!' with superpowers. Yes, there are those...but the stories generally are bad too. I've read a few great stories with OFC's as the main charachter. One of the classics would be 'Brave New World' about a Muggle who teaches Muggle studies. Another is of the Fae in the Knight Errant Chronicles. I'm going to start looking over on Occlumency and Wolfsbane for some more good OFC's...it might be nice to find some good OMC's too.

The wizarding world is a large enough place that you could write nearly origional fiction with several origional charachters instead of the canon ones too, and just follow the rules of the Wizarding World as set by JKR. I think the world she created is just wonderful, and there could be so many stories to tell within that world that have little or nothing to do with the main players in her story. Actually, for someone who wants to get practice in setting up origional charachters for eventually writing origional fiction, fanfic is a great place to get started in it.

I think as long as an author avoids self-insertion writing of a Mary Sue, and builds a realistic person complete with faults and strong points, there's no reason not to have OC's. And, I've been greatly enjoying 'Mistakes Men Make' and need to go look up your other stories...you're on Occlumency, right?

Diana

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:52 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

Quote:

One of the classics would be 'Brave New World' about a Muggle who teaches Muggle studies.

I could never imagine reading this. Not for the fact that it contains an OFC, but because it contains an OFC and (from your description) throws a huge chunk of groundwork canon right out the window.

I'm sorry, but if I'm going to suspend belief enough to read about an OFC, the canon better be spot on, or I can't be bothered in wasting my time.

Quote:

For instance, I boggle at the concept of fanfiction involving Pansy Parkinson. Or fanfic involving Bill and/or Charlie Weasley. We have little snippets about these characters, but no so much that fanfiction can claim to share much more than a name with them.

At least eighty-five percent of all Hermione centered fic is basically OC anyway. I'm sure it is obvious by now that I am an extremely picky reader, so I can see where you are coming from, but I wanted to make it clear where I'm coming from as well.

OFC's have a stigma attached to them. The good ones are rare. They are so rare in fact that I've avoided them, like I said, "like the plague." At least with Hermione or other canon created characters I can get a pretty good feel about how in canon they are being written within the first one or two chapters. A common trend with OFC's is to introduce them quietly and then go along until about chapter ten or so and then BAM! we're now reading about a Sue.

I realize that Sue's can happen to even canon characters in the best of fics some ten or so chapters down the road, but at least when it happens I can hit the back button and not feel so bad about wasting so much time on that particular story. I've read ten good chapters of good canon based fiction. Of course this is only my opinion on how I feel about the matter.

snapeaddict

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:53 am

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

I think Razzberry is right in saying that there simply are not enough well-developed characters. Taking a canon character we know next to nothing about - let's say Hooch and pairing her with for example Snape would basically be the same thing as using an OFC.

As for self insertion and projection of the author's wishes to OFCs...hm...I've seen a lot of Hermiones around that look a lot like wishful thinking of the respective author to me. Wink

So using a canon character does not get you around that problem.

So in a way I think using an OFC is more honest. But if and when you do so, you should try and stick to canon with the rest of the story (IMHO). I'm willing to suspend disbelief for quite a while but if things become too strange and unlikely, I will hit the back button.

A Sue disguised as a canon character is still a Sue and a well-written OFC is much more likely to peak my interest than a canon character moulded into the writer's needs in the lines of pairing and plot.

Max

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:58 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 17 Location: Germany

[looking around shyly] Does AD/HG count for an unusual pairing? It's my favourite (done in three fics) and although I got a lot of bashing for it - I still like working with the big age gap and the (very romantic) idea of "amor vincit omnia".

But in the moment I'm proud that I'm working on a pairing I've never read before: AD/Poppy Pomfrey (and I wonder why I haven't read it before. At the start of the first book he replies to a compliment from Minerva with saying he wouldn't have blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey said she'd like his ear muffs. That made me believe they're flirting with each other - and why shouldn't they do more?).

So yes to unusual pairings! When done by authors which don't do it only to shock, it can be fun. And sometimes I become surprised myself - as just a few days before as I read a Hagrid/Snape fic which I really liked.

azazello

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:14 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

I read a Hagrid/Snape fic which I really liked.

Was that "Care of Magical Creatures"? I've heard loads of recs for that.

I'm very pro-odd pairings. Because they can be very interesting in the hands of the good writer.

And BTW, Max, I always follow the reasoning of Minverva McTabby who insists that in his day, Albus must have been HOT.

Embarassed

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