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| Max |
 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:17 pm |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Germany
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Dear Azazello,
azazello wrote: Quote: I read a Hagrid/Snape fic which I really liked.
Was that "Care of Magical Creatures"? I've heard loads of recs for that.
I'm sorry, but my memory is like a sieve when it comes to titles of fics. Yet I think it was this piece ...
<scrapes herself on the head>
Actually I even think I've got the fic recommended here. Is that possible?
Quote:
And BTW, Max, I always follow the reasoning of Minverva McTabby who insists that in his day, Albus must have been HOT.
So the question only would be: When were "his days"? 
Max
actually still finding him hot |
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| Sorcha |
| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:41 am |
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Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1
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I couldn't agree more about finding stories with pairings other than the conventional (though HG/SS is hardly in canon!)
Where are the stories with other pairings, do they even exsist?
Personally I kinda like LM/HG but I can count on one hand the number of stories that are in the realms of possibility. How come HG/SS is so popular? I have to admit I read it but I'm still curious as to why?
Any ideas? |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:47 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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SS/HG popularity grew after the first year or so of it being a minority interest. If you want the definitive history of the early days of the pairing, go and look here:
http://ashwinder.sycophanthex.com/viewstory.php?sid=9016
This is the oldest extant SS/HG. It is "Letter from Exile one Merciful Morning" by Textualsphinx. Her footnotes are compulsive reading for the keen fandom historian - and dammit, the fic is bloody fine reading too.
The first reaction to the pairing was largely ick. I think it remained a minority interest pairing until the interest was generated by the rows over Pawn to Queen (I'm not getting into the discussion on that) - that drew some good writers - some are still in the paring and others have moved on either out of fandom, or into other genres. The point being that the bar was set high early on.
Personally, I'd say it's in the last two years that the pairing became hugely popular, and sadly, to the detriment of the writing. There are still some good writers in the pairing, but the readership tastes have plummeted. Generally the taste is either purely for porn (and looking at the sort of stuff I see being recced, really stupid porn) or stupid fluff.
Take a look at the sort of fics that are generating the huge amount of reviews and come back and tell me if they bear comparison with the fic above, or even come close? The pairing is not necessarily doomed, but I speak to a lot of good writers whose work (plot and story led) is ignored against a plethora of utterly abysmal and stupid written stuff which seems to have taken over the entire agenda.
Blame the fans. I've been defending a plot led story since I posted the second chapter and folks realised I was not writing a Porn Without Plot. "Your story is too angsty!" "Me and my friends are going to stop reading because you introduced a female OC! " "I want a happy ending!" You know, I'd never tell a writer how to finish their story. I might sit with a fellow writer's hat on and think, "That's not how I'd have finished it." but I'd never review and say "You should have done that, or this."
It is clear to me, that the fanfic game has been overtaken by those who want porn or fantasy. They do not want stories. They are not interested in the fact that the Potterverse is set in the UK, that's why so many of the popular stories read to me as if they were set in Iowa. For the amount of care and attention these writers have paid to "getting the tone right" - they might just as well be about anyone. The characters are certainly not Snape and Hermione. We are drowning in fluff. Stupid ill written and silly stories which are basically people playing with dress up dolls.
The pairing is mainstream, and to its own real detriment. And it's a crappy mainstream at that. But don't blame me. Readers keep wanting fluff, and you always get what you want when it is crap. |
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Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail |
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| LadyM |
| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:34 am |
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Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 5
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I've been ruminating on Razzberry's Jan 6 post about using OFC vs. less-developed canon characters.
I can think of one reason to use canon characters, even those whom, we know little about, as main characters: their relationship to rounder, more dynamic ones.
For example, I like the idea of Hermione/Bill because a.) he was immediately intriguing to me as a reader and to Harry as well when we first met him and b) because he has a cool job and I enjoy reading well-written Egypt/curse fics. But, mostly I like it because it comes packed with potential sibling rivalry, Hermione becoming one of the Weasleys, Hermione feeling superior to or inadequate around super-mom Molly, etc. It's not that I really think anyone's Bill is particularly IC; Razzberry is right, we don't know enough to know what he his taste in music is, etc. However, as long as he is consistent with the little we do know of him, I love to read other people's ideas of him.
This addition to the discussion is not meant to dis anyone's OFC, but just to add that lesser known canon characters have a context already that makes them (well-written ones, that is) interesting to read about.
Lady M (P.S. my 3 yo wants me to add this... But I'm not really embarrassed yet...I'll wait to see if anyone shoots down my reply  ! |
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| Razzberry |
| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:35 pm |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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See, and to me that's a different animal all together, because the reason you're choosing to use the canon character in that capacity has something to do with the character's canon personality.
What I'm talking about is more that we want to hook Snape up with some adult female, so let's take Hooch and do it. And we're not going anywhere near the flying instructor/Quidditch referree Hooch. We're going to make her a hottie under those robes, and a dear friend of his and just completely invent a personality for her because we don't have anything to go on. What is the difference between that and creating an OFC to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts or Muggle Studies? In my mind, the ONLY difference is that Hooch is a character whose name JKR picked.
If someone decides to use Susan Bones because she has an aunt in a high position in the Ministry and it makes a great plot device to have the fear of Ministry involvement hanging over the head of the boy who just wants to shag her, then by all means, there's a reason to use her. But if you're just looking for someone to hook Ron up with and you're not intending to do anything with the fact that she's a Hufflepuff prefect or who her aunt is, then what's the difference between creating a personality for her and creating an OFC?
I get particularly tired of reading fics where the canon characters get paired off. Put Hermione with Snape and Tonks with Bill and Ginny with Harry and Ron with Luna and Remus with... gee... I'm running out of characters. Let's put Remus with Fleur and we'll stick Charlie with Cho and... etc. That can be an entirely different rant, but sometimes I see the pairings and I just shake my head and wonder what was the point.
And when folks *do* use these little known characters, why is it that they are innately 'better' than an OC used in the same capacity? |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:11 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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Location: Northern UK
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They are not different. A minor canon talked up to a major role in a fic is an OC by another name.
Take the dreaded Blaise Zabini, for example. He's done one thing in canon - been sorted into Slytherin. We have no description, no actions, and no speech by this character. Give him a role in a fic, and he's therefore an OC.
Technically, I'd argue that canons in non-canon situations OR years after the timescale of the books are OC's too.
I'm currently writing Hermione Granger aged 34. I think she's verging on OFC simply because we know the woman of 34 is going to be a very different person from the canon teenager of 16. Are you like you were at 16, still?
As regards pairings. I can tell you simply that Ron is going to end up with Hermione. Why?
Sit down and try and pair him with anyone else and see how it sounds!
Harry/Ginny, Harry/Luna both work. Ron/anyone but Hermione just sounds wrong.
So, anyway, lets stop slagging off OC's male and female. For me, the introduction of an original character proves the writer is competent enough to invent them. That's a plus in their favour.
Do not dismiss OFC's as Sues, either. Hermione can be the biggest Sue of the lot. |
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Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail |
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| Sulwen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:11 am |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 11
Location: USA
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I'll probably get flamed for this, but I'm not at all attached to the canon. In fact, I don't even really like the Harry Potter books. So why am I reading the fanfiction? Well, there are some great characters in the books and some extremely talented writers doing great things with them in the fanfic world. With something so pop culture as Harry Potter, it's not like the canon is sacred or anything. Now, I despise Lord of the Rings fanfiction, even though (or perhaps because) I absolutely adored the books. I hate seeing people mess with some of the best literature ever written. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to attack the Harry Potter books. I just think that in this instance (and in many others, especially movie/tv show fandoms), some the fanfiction is better than the original. Therefore, I have no problem seeing really unusual pairings...as long as they're well written.
-Sulwen |
_________________
All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
-J.R.R. Tolkien |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:18 am |
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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 164
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Quote: With something so pop culture as Harry Potter, it's not like the canon is sacred or anything.
I smell cultural snobbishness.
Be it One Hundred Days of Solitude or the back of a cereal packet, canon is canon is canon. I may think Dan Brown's Davinci Code is a flaming pile of horseshit, but if I suddenly lost my mind and started writing fic for it, I'd stick to the canon that he's set. A self-dictated notion of cultural validity is not an indication of canonical value. |
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| Sulwen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:33 pm |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 11
Location: USA
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| I'm not trying to be snobby or say I'm better than anyone else. I just think that sometimes it's more important to stick with canon than others. This is just my personal opinion, mind you, not the way I expect or want everyone else to act. |
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All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
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| azazello |
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:40 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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Location: Northern UK
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So sure, make Snape into some leather clad middle aged raver. Have him poncing about in dragon hide trousers (as seen in a crappy fic near you...)
Thing is, do that, and he's not Snape.
So what were we writing about again?
See, when I got into this game, it was as a canon fan and debater. My fanfic career started with a Snape backstory post for HPFGU that got too long and contained a tad too much conjecture. It was a musing over what Snape's psychology might be - and what he might say to a psychiatrist if anyone ever made him go to one.
At that time, I was an innocent - new to any fandom, not just this one. And I actually thought you had to keep it canonical. Or that positing the backstory of this character was like a jigsaw puzzle - canon had supplied you with maybe one third of the pieces. The fic would make up the rest, but before you did, you'd have to carefully place the pieces you had on the board, and put them in the right places, and only then could you create your own pieces that would complete this jigsaw. But they would have to fit the pieces you already have.
Essentially, a great deal of Snape fic deals with a guy I do not recognise and certainly have no desire to read about. He dances the tango. He dresses like a horrible middle aged creep and pounces on very young girls. Or he's a drug using perverted kink who really should be locked up. He's an unrepentant rapist who we are expected to accept as a suitable life partner for his victim.
Essentially, the free for all that is being advocated here, has no business calling itself Harry Potter fanfiction. It could be anything. And as I am generally mainly interested in reading Snape centric fiction, I'd better by god recognise the guy in the books ( not that fat actor who bears no resemblance to him whatsoever!  ) or I am not interested in reading. Generally, if I want to read made up characters (as fanon Snape so often is) I'd prefer to read made up characters by a professional who can at least get their grammar right. Generally, it is my opinion that poor attention to canon tends to be matched by equally piss-poor and bone idle writing.
Following canon shows me, at least, that the writer cared. She/he could be bothered to research, to read and re-read, and think. That usually leads me to writers who also cared about their grammar, presentation, and writing to make an effort.
Half the time, badfic emanates from lazy bandwagon jumpers who know perfectly well no one would read their stuff if it was not clinging to a popular fandom like some horrid parasite.
Does it have to be canonically perfect?
Nope. It should at least try, though.
/rant |
_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail |
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| Sulwen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:00 pm |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 11
Location: USA
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azazello wrote: Generally, it is my opinion that poor attention to canon tends to be matched by equally piss-poor and bone idle writing.
I completely agree with you on this point. I'm not advocating writers who just don't care. But since you brought up your introduction to fanfiction, perhaps I should tell about mine. The first fic I ever read was in the 10th Kingdom fandom (The 10th Kingdom is a fantasy miniseries that I was addicted to in my early teens...ok, I still love it!), and it was a PWP. There's a scene in the movie where it's implied that the two main characters run off into the woods and have sex. However, the scene itself is not there. The fic I read filled in the "missing scene." I just remember thinking that was so cool. After that, I was hooked. I've been reading and writing fanfiction for about six years, and I still love it just as much today as I did back then.
Now, I think that for a fanfic to be really great, to be a "classic," it needs to have these things:
-Correct spelling and grammar as well as good writing
-An interesting and unique plot or idea
AND
-Accurate characters that are as close to canon as possible
However, I think you can have all these things and still be able to put the characters in a situation that wouldn't happen in canon. Why shouldn't you take Snape (the Snape you recognize from the books) and put him in an odd, out of canon situation? As long as his reaction stays in character, I don't see the problem. Just because "that would never happen in the books!" doesn't mean that it isn't fun and interesting to write about. How would canon Snape react to being sent 100 years into the future or past, for example? It's a chance to bring out sides of a character we wouldn't normally see, and break away from the cliches.
Here's the thing about wildly OOC stories, Mary Sues, AUs and the like. Write them, if you feel the urge. Go right ahead. JUST DON'T POST IT. Mary Sues are great fun to write, but no one else is going to want to read it. So why not just keep it for your own personal pleasure and leave it at that?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree and disagree with the canon purists. Yes, attention to canon is important. But I don't think that canon should come before creativity. A perfect example of this is the entire humor genre. Have you ever read a humor fic that was really in canon? I haven't, but some of them still have me laughing so hard I can't breathe.
The last thing I want to say in this overly-long post is that we don't lose anything by having crappy fics out there. They're always going to be there, especially on sites like ff.net that have open submission policies. But the solution is so simple - just hit the back button! It's just like the rest of the internet. You have to wade through the crap to get to the goodies. And for me, that's ok.
Hoping my rant had something insightful in it,
Sulwen |
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All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
-J.R.R. Tolkien |
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| sophierom |
| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:05 pm |
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Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Sulwen wrote: I don't even really like the Harry Potter books. So why am I reading the fanfiction? Well, there are some great characters in the books and some extremely talented writers doing great things with them in the fanfic world.
Sulwen wrote: we don't lose anything by having crappy fics out there. They're always going to be there, especially on sites like ff.net that have open submission policies. But the solution is so simple - just hit the back button! It's just like the rest of the internet. You have to wade through the crap to get to the goodies. And for me, that's ok.
Hoping my rant had something insightful in it,
Sulwen
You have some very insightful things to say, Sulwen. (And I don't think that was a rant; you made your case very rationally!)
The one thing I don't understand - and I don't mean to sound snarky or confrontational about this - is how there can be fanfic writers and readers who don't like the canon in the first place. You said that you read the fics because they have interesting characters, but most everything that makes those characters interesting has to be traced back to canon. So I guess my question is, how can you not like the books at least a little if you like the characters Rowling created? And again, I don't mean any of that to come out as sarcastic or rude. I'm genuinely curious. I'm not badgering you for not liking the books; you're certainly free to hold whatever opinion you like. But I do wonder how you can argue that you "don't even really like the Harry Potter books" and yet still find a well-drawn Hermione or Ron or Snape or Dumbledore interesting to read (because, IMHO, if the characters are truly well-drawn, their foundation comes from Rowling. The unknown backstory may come from a very talented fanfic author, but in the end, the author couldn't have done it without Rowling's character and setting in the first place).
I can only speak from personal experience, but the only reason I would want to spend time wading "through the crap" and looking for the "goodies," as you put it, is because I can't get enough of canon. Fanfic is, ultimately, a way to continue playing in Potterverse until Rowling provides the next installment.
This is not to say that everything I read is a clone of Rowling's works (in either style or content). Indeed, I'm sure some of my favorite works contain plots and pairings that will never, ever appear in canon. But for me, there has to be something in the fic, particularly in the characters, that has that original spark that I believe Rowling put into the characters in the first place. And perhaps most importantly, I prefer to read fanfic that I feel respects canon. Not copies it or mimics necessarily, but on some level, pays hommage to it.
I think the big sticking point for many of us is what constitutes this "spark" or "respect." So there will always be debates about whether this version of Snape is really true to canon or if that version of Harry is OOC. My idea of a respectful hommage to canon may not match the next person's. But, there are pretty obvious example of fics that show no respect for canon. In this way, it's almost as if the author and her fans are stealing the HP world and using it for their own purposes. (Upon rereading this, I feel rather silly for getting worked up about fanfiction and Harry Potter, but what can I say, I'm protective of HP!)
So, to return to my original point, I just can't understand what draws the writers and readers who announce in the author's notes or in the reviews - "I don't like the HP books - your fics are so much better than Rowling's!" or even better yet, "I haven't read Harry Potter, but here's my fic." How can a fanfic author do a better job than Rowling? Sure, the fanfic author may be more talented a writer (though most aren't). But part of being an author is not just how one uses words (though this is important); part of being an author is also possessing the capability to develop one's own characters, plot, and setting. Fanfic authors may come up with their own plots (though often, we don't even do that); we may have made the characters more three-dimensional than in canon (but how can we blame Rowling for not making every one of her many characters three dimensional?); we may describe Hogwarts or explain magic more eloquently (though for the most part, I don't think we do). But in the end, even if there are fanfic authors who create exceptionally well-written, perfectly-plotted stories with dynamic characters and a vivid setting, those authors did not come up Harry Potter and his world.
None of this is to say that I think anyone who writes or reads fanfiction has to love every aspect of the books. The HP books are not the best books I've read, but I really believe Rowling knows how to tell a great story with some interesting characters, and I know that I'm only writing and reading fanfic because of Rowling's original works.
Again, I want to make sure that you understand that I mean all of this with the utmost respect. And I really would like to hear more about your reasons for reading fanfiction when you don't like canon. I'm very open to the idea that my own opinions on this matter are too narrow, so I welcome any correctives you have to offer!
Best,
Sophie |
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| Diana |
| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:52 pm |
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Head Moderator
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 116
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Quote: However, I think you can have all these things and still be able to put the characters in a situation that wouldn't happen in canon. Why shouldn't you take Snape (the Snape you recognize from the books) and put him in an odd, out of canon situation? As long as his reaction stays in character, I don't see the problem. Just because "that would never happen in the books!" doesn't mean that it isn't fun and interesting to write about. How would canon Snape react to being sent 100 years into the future or past, for example? It's a chance to bring out sides of a character we wouldn't normally see, and break away from the cliches.
I don't think you are grasping the intent of this argument. It isn't the act of taking a canon character and placing them into a situation that would never happen in canon that is pathetic, it is taking a canon character and turning them into something that doesn't even remotely resemble canon that is pathetic and piss poor writing.
The basic concept is two entirely different scenarios. Snape in a Muggle setting (although not willing, mind) is one thing, so long as he keeps his basic canon-based character traits. Snape as a rapists in a 'Dark Revel' setting is an entirely different matter. Of course neither scenario is likely to happen in canon, however, as the first scenario is not striping every character trait away from Snape, it is generally a more accepted form of plot development. However, when you place Snape, and yes I'm simply using Snape as an example here, in a scenario that not only would never happen BUT also changes his character and makes him unrecognizable, that is the essence of crapfic.
I find it a bit hypocritical that you can say that you cannot understand why people reading and writing Harry Potter fanfiction cannot simply allow for a suspension of belief in order to facilitate plot and character development according to the writer. Yet, at the same time, you also state the Lord of the Rings, another masterpiece in it's own right, does not deserve this treatment. Regardless of where you stand on the canon works of any author, the fact remains, that in fanfiction, each original work should be taken in consideration to the same degree. J.K. Rowling's works do not deserve any less attention to canon evidence in writing fanfiction, that Tolkiens. |
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| Sulwen |
| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:15 pm |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Location: USA
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Quote: The one thing I don't understand - and I don't mean to sound snarky or confrontational about this - is how there can be fanfic writers and readers who don't like the canon in the first place. You said that you read the fics because they have interesting characters, but most everything that makes those characters interesting has to be traced back to canon. So I guess my question is, how can you not like the books at least a little if you like the characters Rowling created? And again, I don't mean any of that to come out as sarcastic or rude. I'm genuinely curious. I'm not badgering you for not liking the books; you're certainly free to hold whatever opinion you like. But I do wonder how you can argue that you "don't even really like the Harry Potter books" and yet still find a well-drawn Hermione or Ron or Snape or Dumbledore interesting to read (because, IMHO, if the characters are truly well-drawn, their foundation comes from Rowling. The unknown backstory may come from a very talented fanfic author, but in the end, the author couldn't have done it without Rowling's character and setting in the first place).
I understand your confusion. I suppose I should have been a little clearer on what I meant by not liking the books. I adore the world Rowling created, I'm just not big into her intent. Though they are loved by people of all ages, JKR's intent is to write books for children. This comes through quite clearly in both her style and content. The books were fun little reads, but I found myself longing for something more adult. Therefore, I turned to fanfiction. I'm not saying that the quality is necessarily better, I'm saying that I enjoy the content that can be explored in fanfiction more. That's what I meant. No, of course I wouldn't read fanfiction for a fandom I really hated, but I didn't really hate the Harry Potter books. They were ok. I probably won't read them again. But does that mean I can't enjoy the much more interesting (to me) fanfiction? No.
Thanks for such a thought-provoking response. |
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All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
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| Sulwen |
| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:23 pm |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Location: USA
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Diana wrote: I find it a bit hypocritical that you can say that you cannot understand why people reading and writing Harry Potter fanfiction cannot simply allow for a suspension of belief in order to facilitate plot and character development according to the writer. Yet, at the same time, you also state the Lord of the Rings, another masterpiece in it's own right, does not deserve this treatment. Regardless of where you stand on the canon works of any author, the fact remains, that in fanfiction, each original work should be taken in consideration to the same degree. J.K. Rowling's works do not deserve any less attention to canon evidence in writing fanfiction, that Tolkiens.
I understand what you're saying. And yes, it is a bit hypocritical. But this is just my opinion, not what I expect others to think. Let me make a comparison. Think of one song that you really love, that's just perfect in your mind. What would you think of someone did a cover of that song - even a good cover? I wouldn't like it, because sometimes the original is just that good. That's how I feel about LotR fanfiction. I'm not trying to convince anyone that this is the way it should always be. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that attention to canon is directly proportional to how much you enjoyed and respected the original material. Does that make sense? I know this is a touchy subject, since some people are so very critical of the Harry Potter series, but I'm not trying to attack it. I would say the same thing about any of the other fandoms I read and write in.
Hoping I'm not making anyone angry over this,
Sulwen |
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All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
-J.R.R. Tolkien |
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