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LariLee
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:51 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Kentucky, USA
azazello wrote:
if you are doing SS/HG - remember he's the poetic one (though he's private about it) not her.

Poetic does not mean sappy, either.


What do you mean by poetic? I'm a bit confused by that. And regardless of Hermione, I do want to write a believable Snape.

~Lisa
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azazello
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:25 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK
Sorry had not spotted this one, and am therefore abysmally (and unintentionally rudely) late in responding.

Poetic in this context means that I think Snape has a definite touch of poetry in his diction:

Example one is the famous "Bewitch the mind, ensnare the senses" bit. It's the bit I always quote at antiSnape folks who think the man could not be a figure of romance.

Any guy who can give a spiel like that and not sound stupid is of romantic interest. And think a moment about having your senses ensnared, if you will...

Then "bottle fame, brew glory, and even put a stopper in death..."

How more poetic do you need him to be.

This is the man who made a trap on the way to the hidden philosopher's stone, with a versified logic riddle, too.

Yes, he's sarcastic, but his diction is one of the best things about the books. Most people get it wrong and see the sarcasm and write that he's just a bastard, and ignore the lyrical way he uses English. What we end up having to read is some thick yobbo who bears not the slightest resemblance to the man in the books.

Or worse still, some stilted refugee from the seventeenth century. If he does refer to women as chits or wenches, in canon, then don't you do it, either.

Writers of Snape should seize on the fact that he uses English beautifully - his words are measured and his use of image very fine - at his best. Even when he's furiously angry, words are his weapon. He manages to send Sirius Black section 8 in their exchange in the kitchen at Grimmauld in book 5 - and Snape knows exactly how to do it. He's come a long way from the angry teenager in his own worst memories, by that time, he can effortless press all the right "angry" buttons of his own worst enemy, and boy does he take pleasure doing so. He swears when furiously angry - though only rarely, because his vocabulary is more than adequate to expressing rage without profanity.

His sarcasm is never vulgar but sophisticated and razor edged: best example of this is the sequence in GOF when he reads the Witch Weekly article out to the class. He's having a huge laugh there, and he knows it. I'm not saying he's nice, the "I see no difference" quip being a case in point (though I recall teachers being equally bitchy to me and my schoolfriends).

He's got great timing too. "..And maybe he's wondering why you two weren't on the train" was the most disgraceful cut from COS the movie that I could imagine. It's a wonderful moment that.

Yes, poetic. Get that diction right - and you're close to getting him right. Miss it and miss out. If the diction is not right, I won't be reading. The diction is what pulled me in to his fan-harem anyway.

Lots of writers get it wrong. They make him sound vulgar. He most emphatically is not.

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Aeryn
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:31 am Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 35
Wow...just found this thread (though I admit I got rather turned off by the first 2-3 pages...so glad that's all been sorted out). I won't get into my opinion on BDSM or such, cuz I really think that's getting rather beaten like a dead horse.

However, about Snape and his background...in my fic (okay...our fic, I have a co-writer) Snape comes from a wealthy background. We haven't mentioned it yet, and indeed, we won't be until Place is done and we hit the sequal. But in short, he is from money, there is a Manor, he's not as high on the pureblood chain as the Malfoys and such, but certainly there is some family prestigue. Now, how do we reconcile it with canon? Not too hard, really. He simply doesn't give a rat's patotie about his appearance. He's got greasy hair (by gentics, potions accumulation, or simply waiting a couple days between hair washings...we say genetics I think) and grey underpants. So?! He's got grey underpants...maybe they were his lucky underpants, since he was taking the DADA OWL. Or maybe he's like most men I know...hates buying new underpants and uses his till they fall to bits. Or maybe all his nice ones were in the laundry that day and he had only his old faithfuls at hand. Personally, I don't see Snape caring about the condition of his underpants as long as he's not falling out of them and they're clean.

My point is he could still be rich, but not dandy like Lucius...just doesn't care about his clothes. That and I think we gave him a rather penny pinching father. Have to check on that one. Mostly, Snape didn't care about his personal appearance all that much.

As for Snape of the now and wealth...I can only say what's in our fic, and at the moment, it's a non-issue (his money is in the bank and he doesn't touch it, just his salary and some interest off the main capital for those rare book purchases...heh. But like I said...in our fic.), and his gal pal (our indominable OFC) has no clue. She assumes he's a poor schmo like her.

Um...I'm sure there was something else I wanted to say...but I can't remember! Possibly about Snape, love, romance, etc...

Well, in Place, Snape is rather the smitten kitten. Sorry...he is. 'Course we stuck him through the wringer first...but hey, we gave him a break...for now. He's in love, he's romantic, and though still snarky and a jerk to everyone else (politely of course), he adores her (well...in private...the whole Muggle thing and him being a DE spy thing going on). Now, we have reasons why he's this way, and hopefully built it up and with some new info...well, we hope it explains why.

We have also been putting together a fic where Snape is not a nice guy. It's after the war, he's no longer a teacher, but still works for the Order. He's manipulitive, cunning, and not above using anyone to achieve a goal. Will this guy ever say "I love you?" Hell, no! Will he fall in love...that remains to be seen...will it go well? Very likely not.

Now, are we following canon in any of this: We're trying! Truth is, I'm not perfect. LFire isn't perfect. And we do have a plot and try to stay as true to the character as we can. Personally, I see Snape as a human being who is able to grow and change as needs be. Yes, he's got his set quirks that you have to take in, but still, under the right circumstances and proddings, people change and become very different that what you started out with.

Just look at Ebenezear (ugh...spelling!) Scrooge.

Not saying I'm right or even close...just my small opinion. Like it, hate it, throw it in the dust bin! Smile

Right...must go and now delve into more Victoriana...Sherlock Holmes awaits me!

~Aeryn (What is it with me and hawknosed men who are repressed! Snicker!)
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sariah snape
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Snape's office
After reding all those posts, and considerring everyhting I have ever learned from this site... I am still having difficulty portraying snape correctly.

I mean, i've got the mannerisms and the wit. I've got his movements down pretty well. I just can't get the "romantic" side of him down well... I can write him based off the movie, but i cannot get canon written well at all. can someone give me some really general pointers?

Sariah

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Razzberry
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:47 am Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82
Is there a romantic side to Snape?

From a strictly canon POV, probably not. From a more interpretive stance, though, you can probably extrapolate the things you do know about him into foreign areas.

Or, perhaps the real question is: what is 'romantic'?

Are you trying to cast him into a regency romance? I see a lot of fanfic where this is the case-- he's being shoved into a frock-coat, lord of the manor sort of role. He has the personality for it! I can envision him stalking down a broad staircase, the vein in his temple pulsing as he barks out orders to servants who cringe and cower. I can see him storming in late at night, hauling a valet out of bed to tend some wound he earned scuffling with a three-headed dog (or wait, was that Filch instead of a valet?)

There's a lot of potential for a woman to 'reform' him-- someone who can stand up to him and tell him in no uncertain terms that he is not the center of the universe and to quit pouting over it.

The trick? Let the female lead reform him instead of giving into the temptation to reform him yourself. In other words, don't succumb to the appeal of explaining away his snarkiness. Don't explain that the reason his hair is greasy is because he's a potions master and it has something to do with a flame-proof pomade he puts on it. Let the female lead berate him for his poor hygiene and dunk him in a bathtub, scrubbing his head while he sputters indignantly. Don't say that his attitude towards students is a result of his need to put up a good front for the Death Eaters. Just let him be a bastard and have the female lead in his face telling him that he can put his attitude back in the same box he got it out of.

So much Snape-fic is so busy making him a perfect and lovable man that it misses these types of opportunities. Cast him into a role he'd be comfortable in.

(and if you write such a fic, let me know, because it sounds like something I'd like to read)


Or is it the rogue you want?

A confirmed bachelor, a dangerous man, a chaotic hero type... After the model of the highwayman or hired assassin, he lives on the edge between good and evil, and walks a fine line. Every time he leaves, there's the distinct possibility that he may never return. The last thing he wants or needs is to be burdened with anyone who will slow his getaway or be a potential liability. He doesn't need to care enough about someone that he hands Voldemort a bargaining chip; he doesn't need to be looking after someone who is going to wander into danger unwittingly. He's hard, cold, and he's never found it difficult to make sacrifices. He knows when and how to save his own skin, but when an innocent woman with a talent for trouble manages to keep put herself in harm's way, we see his sense of decency emerge, and he adopts as his new duty the task of keeping her safe/seeing her out of danger. Somewhere along the way, he comes to admire her courage.


Or maybe you're looking for a softer hero. An intellect, attentive to the needs and desires of his lover.

An unfortunate (nose) circumstance has kept him from ever finding love, and when he finds a woman who is willing to look past that (ungodly appendage on his face) which he cannot control, he is loath to ever lose her. He is poetic, soft-spoken, intensely loyal. He would do anything to keep her, to hold onto this ray of hope and happiness that has pierced the dark prison of his soul. He is brooding and insecure, and extremely jealous. He's spent his whole life looking for a woman worthy of his attentions, and now that he has found her, he will make her the center of his universe.


In other words, start with the role you want him to play, and then look at how to bring it about, and keep his character in mind. Don't try to perfect him, and start with a plan. Unplanned fics are the fertile birthplaces of Mary Sue and Gary Stu.
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sariah snape
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:47 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Snape's office
okay, thatnks... you've made it much easier now.

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Owlbait
Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:47 am Reply with quote
Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92
azazello wrote:
Sorry had not spotted this one, and am therefore abysmally (and unintentionally rudely) late in responding.

Poetic in this context means that I think Snape has a definite touch of poetry in his diction:

[snip]

Yes, poetic. Get that diction right - and you're close to getting him right. Miss it and miss out. If the diction is not right, I won't be reading. The diction is what pulled me in to his fan-harem anyway.

Lots of writers get it wrong. They make him sound vulgar. He most emphatically is not.


This is really interesting, considering it is now pretty well established that he is from a pretty lowerclass background. He may not speak vulgarly, but he does spit on the ground.

He must have spent a lot of time reading that roomful of books in Spinner's End to develop his love of and skill with the language.

-Liz

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LadyWhitehart
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:20 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 193 Location: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
This is really interesting, considering it is now pretty well established that he is from a pretty lowerclass background. He may not speak vulgarly, but he does spit on the ground.

He must have spent a lot of time reading that roomful of books in Spinner's End to develop his love of and skill with the language.


That, or he very much wanted and/or needed to put that lowerclass background behind him at some point. It's doubtful that the Blacks and Malfoys would have taken him seriously unless he was a bit more 'polished.' But I agree, the only times I would consider him vulgar are the times he completely loses his temper.

Maybe it's just me, but the formality of his speech sometimes seems a bit forced, like each word is carefully annunciated to make sure the accent/speech patterns don't slip through. Not that he sounds like he's a time traveler from the 17th century, but just excessively correct and proper.

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froggiebecky
Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:42 am Reply with quote
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 7
Okay, so I feel like I need to add my two cents to this. And it has nothing to do with Snape's sexuality, I swear!

So it's pretty much agreed upon that he's a mean, sarcastic jerk with a bad hair life....but take a look at what he's dealing with:

Bad hair. I'm going to go with the genetics vote as well, and add in a little bit of location to that. I've always thought of it as very fine hair which, when you spend your entire day (or most of it) in a dank dungeoun that's probably got fairly high humidity in comparison to the rest of the castle AND in a potions lab, where various liquids are getting heated up all day, it makes sense that it would appear greasy. At least to me. Actually, I recall to mind an exchange made at the teacher's lunch table at the school I taught at. We were contemplating a student's long hair, and the conversation went something on the order of:
"I wish that kid would wash his greasy hair"
"It's not greasy, it's just fine. It's always falling out of it's ponytail when he gets to me (in the afternoon"
"Still wouldn't hurt if he washed it more than once a week"

Black clothes that aren't especially nice: I'm going to refer again to the potions classroom. There's a bunch of nasy stuff that's potentially dangerous that smallish children are cooking up and could potentially get on you when things don't go right. If I were teaching that class, I wouldn't want my good stuff ruined either. Besides, black goes with everything, is good for lurking in shadows, and doesn't show stains. Wink

The sarcasm...There's tons of theories abounding here, and they are all good...I'd just like to point out that most days of the week, he's dealing with teenagers, who are themselves just discovering sarcasm as a form of humor. It's pretty cack-handed at 12 and 13, but they get better at it as they get older. That's something I think Rowling does a great job of capturing--as he gets older, Harry's one-liners get much more scathing, smart-alec-y and cut closer to the bone. As such, it's an (I think) fairly common way of getting your point across with them is to use what they're using, i.e. sarcasm. I'll be glad to acknowledge that his brand sarcasm is fairly age-inappropriate for the younger groups he teaches, and probably content-inapproriate for the older ones (he's mean about it). But I'd also like to point out that he may be using it because it works and it gets their attention and gets them to obey you. And in the case of a potentially chaotic lab, you want to have a quick way of getting attention if necessary. (Hey, it worked for me teaching HS seniors who were 6 years my junior) I do believe that someone said he does things for a reason....I just happen to think that his reasons, at least in the classroom, do have a pragmatic base of sorts.
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asheraz
Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:02 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Dec 2006 Posts: 2 Location: Singapore
Personally I think Snape and BDSM is fine (seeing all the evidence above) however, I see him as a more refined person. What I mean is that I think that a person of his intellect would find mind games much more appealing rather than the crudeness of rape.


Forcing the body against the will of the mind


This can be taken in two ways.
One: Rape fic Two: The art of seduction (I believe that Snape functions here) (part 1).

Ok fine how can Snape function somewhere so close to rape?

Rape fics:
I think is extremely out of character for Snape to be a rapist as I don't think that he needs to resort to such crude and violent measures to get what he wants. [Hell, what did he ever do to get fan girls drooling over him?]

The art of seduction:
This is a subtler and refine way of 'forcing' a woman to bend to his will. This involves the meeting of the minds and the woman, after going through some mental torture (no I do not mean Snape coming up with some sort of brain freeze potion that stops her from thinking because that would just be rape.) before well, heading off to 'a long and well-deserved bed'.

I think that he sees himself as an elitist and smarter than most people to submit to the common physical domination over the fairer sex. I think of him as those who value intellect over crude brute force. I believe that Snape would find this much more appealing as he would have maintained that kind of control over her that no other bondage paraphernalia could hold. (Just a thought: SS/Maxime? Hold your fire!) Furthermore, I believe that he would like the idea of proving that he has persuaded her or, if you'll excuse the rather sexist Shakespearean theme for 'Taming of the Shrew', tamed her.

Personally, I don't really buy into the whole Snape and prostitute thing with the exceptions of a few. I think that he would rather be much more satisfied with seeing a person seek him out on her own free will, instead of the other way round.

With words or with his small gestures (he has rather beautiful hands), these are the differences that set Severus Snape from a common rapist but still maintain that longing of control within him. Shocked

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jehove-@hotmail.com
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Yukimor
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:47 am Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 14
I've been reading all these debates on how to write Snape and now my head is spinning.

For the record, I think snape does drawl- I'm not sure where I've read it in canon, but if I have time, I will find it and post the reference here.

Second... Snape is such a complex charactet that it's very difficult to write all parts of him.

and yes, reading about a virgin snape shagging like a off-set porn star just about kills me with the sheer stupidity of it.

Still reading all the debates. o__0

Oh, and RachelW, I tip my hat off to you- I've read your fics, and though "You can't have one without..." made me cry a bit, it was still good. Not entirely my cup of tea, but I feel that if the writing is good, it deserves to be read.
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Yukimor
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:38 am Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 14
Razzberry wrote:
Is there a romantic side to Snape?

From a strictly canon POV, probably not. From a more interpretive stance, though, you can probably extrapolate the things you do know about him into foreign areas.

Or, perhaps the real question is: what is 'romantic'?

Are you trying to cast him into a regency romance? I see a lot of fanfic where this is the case-- he's being shoved into a frock-coat, lord of the manor sort of role. He has the personality for it! I can envision him stalking down a broad staircase, the vein in his temple pulsing as he barks out orders to servants who cringe and cower. I can see him storming in late at night, hauling a valet out of bed to tend some wound he earned scuffling with a three-headed dog (or wait, was that Filch instead of a valet?)

There's a lot of potential for a woman to 'reform' him-- someone who can stand up to him and tell him in no uncertain terms that he is not the center of the universe and to quit pouting over it.

The trick? Let the female lead reform him instead of giving into the temptation to reform him yourself. In other words, don't succumb to the appeal of explaining away his snarkiness. Don't explain that the reason his hair is greasy is because he's a potions master and it has something to do with a flame-proof pomade he puts on it. Let the female lead berate him for his poor hygiene and dunk him in a bathtub, scrubbing his head while he sputters indignantly. Don't say that his attitude towards students is a result of his need to put up a good front for the Death Eaters. Just let him be a bastard and have the female lead in his face telling him that he can put his attitude back in the same box he got it out of.

So much Snape-fic is so busy making him a perfect and lovable man that it misses these types of opportunities. Cast him into a role he'd be comfortable in.

(and if you write such a fic, let me know, because it sounds like something I'd like to read)


Or is it the rogue you want?

A confirmed bachelor, a dangerous man, a chaotic hero type... After the model of the highwayman or hired assassin, he lives on the edge between good and evil, and walks a fine line. Every time he leaves, there's the distinct possibility that he may never return. The last thing he wants or needs is to be burdened with anyone who will slow his getaway or be a potential liability. He doesn't need to care enough about someone that he hands Voldemort a bargaining chip; he doesn't need to be looking after someone who is going to wander into danger unwittingly. He's hard, cold, and he's never found it difficult to make sacrifices. He knows when and how to save his own skin, but when an innocent woman with a talent for trouble manages to keep put herself in harm's way, we see his sense of decency emerge, and he adopts as his new duty the task of keeping her safe/seeing her out of danger. Somewhere along the way, he comes to admire her courage.


Or maybe you're looking for a softer hero. An intellect, attentive to the needs and desires of his lover.

An unfortunate (nose) circumstance has kept him from ever finding love, and when he finds a woman who is willing to look past that (ungodly appendage on his face) which he cannot control, he is loath to ever lose her. He is poetic, soft-spoken, intensely loyal. He would do anything to keep her, to hold onto this ray of hope and happiness that has pierced the dark prison of his soul. He is brooding and insecure, and extremely jealous. He's spent his whole life looking for a woman worthy of his attentions, and now that he has found her, he will make her the center of his universe.


In other words, start with the role you want him to play, and then look at how to bring it about, and keep his character in mind. Don't try to perfect him, and start with a plan. Unplanned fics are the fertile birthplaces of Mary Sue and Gary Stu.



For my two cents worth, lets see what he was like with the only romantic or love interest we know of: Lily (nee Evans) Potter.

As a child, he was open but evasive (he told her all about the wizarding world, but when asked about his parents, was a bit terse/bitter and then changed the subject.) As an adult, still dealing likely with feelings of rejection, he's still intesely loyal: he hears the prophecy and betrays her, but then rushes to rectify it. And even when that fails, he seems to still try to fix it, or at least atone. he is someone who makes a lot of mistakes but tries to fix them as best he can, I think. And then there's the attitude- I think that would indeed depend on the woman in question. Someone who either explains away his attitude is walked over on the way Snape's father probably walked over/argued with his mother (assumption here only), or someone who stands up to his attitude and tells him where to stick it is more likely to have a more... "romantic" Snape- still making mistakes, but with someone to kick him in the shins to remind him to fix it.

Am I mistaken here? ._.;
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Overhill
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:36 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 263 Location: Central Oregon, near a wyer, but the dragons are downstairs....
Am I mistaken here? ._.;

No. Actually, we'll never know, as JRK seems to have closed the book, or rather books, on the subject.

There are plenty of theories played out at the archives here, esp. Occlumency. That's the beauty of fanfic--you can try out your ideas, and when the HP books were still not finished, you could find out if yours work out.

By the way, welcome to the boards here. Sorry that there are so few of us posting now adays.
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Overhill
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:52 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 263 Location: Central Oregon, near a wyer, but the dragons are downstairs....
It was a very lively place here. That things would get quiet after the last book was sort of expected. Unfortunately, soon after that the place got spammed really bad, so a lot of people left.

I'm glad that the archives are still going on as they were before. I don't think Ashwinder saw any dip, and Chaos (where I'm currently posting) never did have a crowd there, but it's still going on! Unfortunately, Illusions went down, and I have not been able to find the art works there elsewhere.

So from time to time we survivors and the moderators check here at the boards and see what's going on. Again, welcome to SH!

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Yukimor
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:26 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 14
Overhill wrote:
It was a very lively place here. That things would get quiet after the last book was sort of expected. Unfortunately, soon after that the place got spammed really bad, so a lot of people left.

I'm glad that the archives are still going on as they were before. I don't think Ashwinder saw any dip, and Chaos (where I'm currently posting) never did have a crowd there, but it's still going on! Unfortunately, Illusions went down, and I have not been able to find the art works there elsewhere.

So from time to time we survivors and the moderators check here at the boards and see what's going on. Again, welcome to SH!


Thank you very much for the warm welcome. =D

I can understand the spamming- that's one reason I left neopets awhile back. Spammers should go to hell! *shakes fist angrily*

But I sure am very glad that Ashwinder is still going strong. I think most of what went on on the boards here were probably theories and discussions, and now that the final book came out...

D=

Maybe it'll pick up when then next movie comes out?
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