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RachelW
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:57 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas
How about a discussion on writing Snape? His manarisms, speech paterns, and so forth....

I usually find the 'thesarus' feature of MS word comes in very handy when writing Snape...I write a sentence to the effect of what I want him to say/mean, and then about half the words get changed through the thesarus option.

However, something I believe I saw Azazello say once was to the effect that while he may be formal, he shouldn't sound like he just stepped out of the 17th century...so, you can go too far in the formality and thesarus usage. I may have gone a bit too far on this at times! LOL

Also, can you go too far in analyzing him? Is he really just a greasy-haired git with bad manners?

Also, Snape sexuality can get interresting. I'm working on a Virgin Snape story, but he can be anywhere between Virgin and SexGod depending on how he's written.

Any thoughts here?
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carecrystal
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:03 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 87 Location: Michigan
This is one of my favorite topics, so yes, I'll be glad to jump in and help get this going. Getting Snape just right takes work, but the results are worth it (especially when you can keep him canon yet still have him do something unexpected.) I can't wait to see what everyone else says about this topic!

One thing, though---when I first started writing my humble fanfic, I tried so hard to portray my Snape as canon that later on, when I steered him away from canon, I got all kinds of unhappy feedback from readers. I found out that keeping him close to canon right from the start has real drawbacks, which is something novice writers need to know as they reason out how close to canon they want to portray him right from the start. Obviously, we have to keep him Snape-like (one of the requirements of SH is keeping characters recognizable.) But how to do that, while having him do new and different things, is the challenge.

I will post just a little bit later today some of the helpful factoids I jotted down for my own writing---it's info a lot of people know, but beginning writers may find it useful. I hope you'll add some hints from your own writing as well. Your Snape is especially nasty and very interesting, and I know you'll have lots of advice to share.
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RachelW
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:18 am Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas
carecrystal wrote:
I hope you'll add some hints from your own writing as well. Your Snape is especially nasty and very interesting, and I know you'll have lots of advice to share.


Hmmm, I have a hard time writing about writing. LOL. But...mostly I try to look at him from the inside out...before I start writing a story I think up which Snape I'm going to have. I have three WIP's I'm posting now and all three are very different interpretations.

For the first story I started, I didn't take a very deep look at him and mostly went with 'mean teacher who has aversion to shampoo and few social skills' and didn't really look beyond that much. But, people think he's prety good there too (Soulmates Rejoined).

Then, I'm also writing one where he's a bit on the 'sweet on the inside' Snape...and bi-sexual. He's still kinda Snapey though.

I've got the most hardcore charachterization in 'You can't have one..." and with that I really built him ahead of time. I made a psychological profile, complete with personality type, IQ, traumatic or influential past history, and two personality disorders/difficulties.(Can you guess which ones? lol). I probably overanalized for that. Anyway, once I had his personality profile down, it was just a matter of writing down what he said(he resides in a corner of my brain now, as does Hermione...it gets confusing in here sometimes).

I'm also outlining and building another Snape for a future story in which he'll be quite different from the way he is in 'You can't have one..." but in a good way. GahhH! I've got to get my WIP's done first!!

I espically like LariLee's Snape. Check Occlumency for 'A Right Bastard'...she got a new PWP on Occlumency too and I can't remember the name right now. She also has 'Great Plans' on Ashwinder which is more like a series of vinegettes that portray the progression of the relationship between Snape and Hermione and I think he's perfect in that.
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LariLee
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:21 am Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Kentucky, USA
RachelW wrote:
I espically like LariLee's Snape. Check Occlumency for 'A Right Bastard'...she got a new PWP on Occlumency too and I can't remember the name right now. She also has 'Great Plans' on Ashwinder which is more like a series of vinegettes that portray the progression of the relationship between Snape and Hermione and I think he's perfect in that.


Rachel,

I am honored, indeed, by your praise. Very Happy

I try to keep Snape more formal with no slang and few contractions. I see him as having infinite control and less likely to voice a positive emotion. He hisses, murmurs, and whispers. He people-watches a bit, so knows most buttons to push and exactly how to push them. I also feel Snape thinks he deserves the bad in life, yet rails against his fortune. Very complex in thoughts and ideas and apt to brood. I also see him as exceptionally intelligent and more apt to appreciate intelligence in others as long as he is not in direct competition. And who can mention Snape without saying "snarky"? I can't. Smile

Everyone has a different idea they pull from canon. I'm not saying my view is right, but it is one I enjoy.

~Lisa/LariLee
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carecrystal
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:52 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 87 Location: Michigan
I've noticed that "canon" Snape has a very limited amount of expressions: He says, he smirks, he sneers, he barks (but only one or two times in all of canon JKR---mostly, Sirius "barks". but Snape also does this on occasion.)

I plan to go through ALL of my Snapey quotes, just to double-check---but can anyone think of more expressions before I do??
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LariLee
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:03 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Kentucky, USA
carecrystal wrote:
I've noticed that "canon" Snape has a very limited amount of expressions: He says, he smirks, he sneers, he barks (but only one or two times in all of canon JKR---mostly, Sirius "barks". but Snape also does this on occasion.)

I plan to go through ALL of my Snapey quotes, just to double-check---but can anyone think of more expressions before I do??


Darn it! I need to get a highlighter and highlight all the Snape passages, but I think he also hisses and whispers and he spits out his words and in the Shrieking Shack, he also shouts and yells. Come to think of it, I believe he does all of the above in the Shrieking Shack. As soon as the snow melts here or the neighbor plows out my drive, I'm off for highlighters.

~Lisa/LariLee
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snapeaddict
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:06 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
Quote:
I try to keep Snape more formal with no slang and few contractions. I see him as having infinite control and less likely to voice a positive emotion. He hisses, murmurs, and whispers. He people-watches a bit, so knows most buttons to push and exactly how to push them. I also feel Snape thinks he deserves the bad in life, yet rails against his fortune. Very complex in thoughts and ideas and apt to brood. I also see him as exceptionally intelligent and more apt to appreciate intelligence in others as long as he is not in direct competition. And who can mention Snape without saying "snarky"? I can't. Smile


That's almost exactly the way I see him, couldn't have said it better. Someone mentioned something about a virgin Snape. This is something I can hardly imagine. I always imagine him to have quite some experience. After all he may not be someone who is attractive at first sight like Gilderoy Lockhart. But the latter turns out to be pretty shallow if you look a bit closer and Snape only gets more appealing the closer you look. So I guess with the right women a character like Snape might be very successful. I mean, he has all of us drooling helplessly, doesn't he? *g*
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LariLee
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:04 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Kentucky, USA
[quote="snapeaddict"]
Quote:
That's almost exactly the way I see him, couldn't have said it better. Someone mentioned something about a virgin Snape. This is something I can hardly imagine. I always imagine him to have quite some experience. After all he may not be someone who is attractive at first sight like Gilderoy Lockhart. But the latter turns out to be pretty shallow if you look a bit closer and Snape only gets more appealing the closer you look. So I guess with the right women a character like Snape might be very successful. I mean, he has all of us drooling helplessly, doesn't he? *g*


I usually work the phrase in (somehow, somewhere) that sex=power and I can't imagine any Slytherin not being proficient in power... of any nature. Or it could just be my fevered imagination. Wink
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Snape's Patronus
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:25 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 10 Location: Inside my own head.
carecrystal wrote:
...when I first started writing my humble fanfic, I tried so hard to portray my Snape as canon that later on, when I steered him away from canon, I got all kinds of unhappy feedback from readers. I found out that keeping him close to canon right from the start has real drawbacks, which is something novice writers need to know as they reason out how close to canon they want to portray him right from the start.


I have a WIP now in which I am trying to write Severus as close to canon as possible. The story started out as a straightforward romance, and needless to say, that did not work. It's moving in some very unexpected--but much more interesting--directions now.

Quote:
...we have to keep him Snape-like (one of the requirements of SH is keeping characters recognizable.) But how to do that, while having him do new and different things, is the challenge.


I finally had to accept that there were some things I was never going to get Severus to do, think, feel, or say, no matter how much I wanted him to do those things, at least not if I was to remain true to him. I think any well-drawn character has limits, just as real people do, and some characters have much more sharply-defined limits than others.

Severus is both heaven and hell to work with because he imposes so many limits, and maintains them so fiercely. There may be things I want him to do--fall in love, for example. If I'm going to keep him in-canon, however, I have to accept that getting him there is going to take a lot of time, effort, and patience. Even when he does finally fall in love, he will have very different ways of showing it; he is unlikely to engage in traditional "romantic" gestures. And can someone like him actually sustain a relationship? That's open for debate.

I admit that I end up feeling sorry for Severus a lot of the time because, despite his considerable virtues, he's so howlingly dysfunctional. I mean, really--the man is fascinating, but psychologically he's a mess. Occasionally I look back at what I've written and realize I've portrayed him in a far more sympathetic light than canon could possibly begin to support. When I do that, he's saner, more sensitive, and far less bitter, paranoid and vindictive; he also has good, logical reasons for behaving abominably. I find myself making excuses for him, or ignoring his worst moments, rather than include scenes that make him look bad.

I can't let myself pretend that he doesn't behave in monstrous ways for stupid, petty reasons. Writing wicked, witty, snarky dialogue for him is lots of fun, but I also have to explore the ugly, ill-concealed rage that lies beneath it. However, he isn't evil; I do think he has some ability (however limited and conditional) to form emotional attachments to other people. Figuring out what conditions have to be met before he will take that kind of risk is part of what makes him so interesting to write.
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Snape's Patronus
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:58 am Reply with quote
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 Posts: 10 Location: Inside my own head.
snapeaddict wrote:
...Someone mentioned something about a virgin Snape. This is something I can hardly imagine. I always imagine him to have quite some experience.


I have no trouble imagining him as either a virgin, or having only limited sexual experience (and none of it recent).

He's skinny and physically unattractive, neglects the finer points of grooming, keeps people at arm's length (either through formality or hostility), and is obsessed with self-control (even as he frequently loses it in explosive rages). When he was younger, all of these liabilities, plus coming from a poor background, would have made him even more undesirable.

I've always seen him as a Potions geek. While he's very skilled and intelligent and has managed to acquire a veneer of civility, his social skills are sorely lacking. I don't think he'd be a hit with the ladies (or the gentlemen, for that matter), and it would be a very rare person who could find him sexually attractive as he is.

Quote:
...Snape only gets more appealing the closer you look.


Ah, yes--but you have to be willing to stick around for a closer look. That's not a hard task for a reader, but if you're a witch hanging out at the Three Broomsticks, hoping to meet Mr. Right (or at least Mr. Will-Do-For-Tonight), that's another story.

Besides, I don't think Severus would willingly put himself in a position where he might face rejection and humiliation, and pursuing women would definitely qualify...
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snapeaddict
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:08 am Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
Snape's Patronus wrote:
I admit that I end up feeling sorry for Severus a lot of the time because, despite his considerable virtues, he's so howlingly dysfunctional. I mean, really--the man is fascinating, but psychologically he's a mess. Occasionally I look back at what I've written and realize I've portrayed him in a far more sympathetic light than canon could possibly begin to support. When I do that, he's saner, more sensitive, and far less bitter, paranoid and vindictive; he also has good, logical reasons for behaving abominably. I find myself making excuses for him, or ignoring his worst moments, rather than include scenes that make him look bad.

I can't let myself pretend that he doesn't behave in monstrous ways for stupid, petty reasons. Writing wicked, witty, snarky dialogue for him is lots of fun, but I also have to explore the ugly, ill-concealed rage that lies beneath it. However, he isn't evil; I do think he has some ability (however limited and conditional) to form emotional attachments to other people. Figuring out what conditions have to be met before he will take that kind of risk is part of what makes him so interesting to write.


Hm, I don't know really. Is he that pitiable a character? I don't think he appears that much of a psychological wrack in canon. I strongly suspect him to have something like a secret life which he does not want students to know about. (Being a teacher myself that is something I would REALLY understand. *g*) Often, he puts on a show. He's probably only half as bitter and paranoid as he wishes people to believe.

When he is giving Harry (the little brat!) Occlumency lessons he says something about showing emotions and that it makes you vulnerable:
"Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!"
And I think he does not only refer to Voldemort. It is his belief that showing emotions makes you appear weak.
He is very right about that given the evidence of his memories. He has reason enough to hate Sirius and James - and even Lupin. Still, he helps Harry and he brews the Wolfsbane Potion for Lupin.

I can see, he has been hurt in the past and there is something he never really got over but he appears pretty sane to me and he is able to control his anger.

He does not overreact when he finds Harry in the pensieve. Don't ask what I would have done with that nosy little fellow. Imagine someone you don't particularly like. You turn your back on them for just five minutes and you catch them reading your diary - and what is more - one that contains only your worst memories and your most embarassing moments. Given these circumstances I think his reaction is actually rather controlled. Well, that's just my view of Snape. Probably I sympathise too much...
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liquidscissors
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:21 am Reply with quote
Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164
Overthinking and overwriting are the two easiest deaths to apply to a written Snape, in my gold-plated yet humble opinion.

Stick to canon, sure, but don't get bogged down in the hows and whys. He's a jerk, his voice is reasonably easy to hit and he's a tremendous amount of fun to write. Leave it at that.
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snapeaddict
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:25 am Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
Snape's Patronus wrote:

I don't think he'd be a hit with the ladies (or the gentlemen, for that matter), and it would be a very rare person who could find him sexually attractive as he is.


But....but...I do! *pout* Smile

No, serious for a minute. Well...as I said before in my post, I probably sympathise too much but I have this theory about the canon Snape.
The narrator takes very much Harry's view on things and often follows Harry in his misinterpretations of the situation like when Harry is about to fall off his broom and Snape is actually muttering a counter curse not jinxing the broom. There the narrator takes very much Harry's (or let's say the trio's) perspective for reasons of suspense and to make it possible to sympathise with the main characters.

So I think Snape may also be portrayed from the trio's POV to a certain extent. And students are very likely to see their teachers in a much more negative light, especially when they are very strict and frightening like Snape. So I think he is only half as ugly as he appears in the description. At least that is the way I depicted him in my fan fiction. He is certainly no Brad Pitt but he is not completely unattractive. From a thirteen year old girl's point of view though.... rather hooked nose, pale, skinny... not exactly the stuff a teenager's dreams are made of. *g*

Well...maybe I'm just too much in love with the character and as we all know love is blind. But I DO see him pull in the Three Broomsticks. He just lurks in some corner looking aloof, reading something or so until a witch with a "helper's syndrome" comes along and ask him why he looks so broody and sad. Very Happy He will react very Snape-like and say something snarky and then she's hooked. (Because women suspect that he is hiding a soft core and feel it is their calling to tickle that out.) Okay...just a theory sprung from my warped mind.
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LariLee
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:39 am Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Kentucky, USA
Quote:
So I think Snape may also be portrayed from the trio's POV to a certain extent. And students are very likely to see their teachers in a much more negative light, especially when they are very strict and frightening like Snape. So I think he is only half as ugly as he appears in the description. At least that is the way I depicted him in my fan fiction. He is certainly no Brad Pitt but he is not completely unattractive. From a thirteen year old girl's point of view though.... rather hooked nose, pale, skinny... not exactly the stuff a teenager's dreams are made of. *g*


Especially a teenage boy. Laughing One who has feared and hated him since day one. The descriptions of Snape seem almost like a caricature of a person.

~Lisa/LariLee
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RachelW
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:27 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas
[quote="Snape's Patronus"]
snapeaddict wrote:
He's skinny and physically unattractive, neglects the finer points of grooming, keeps people at arm's length (either through formality or hostility), and is obsessed with self-control (even as he frequently loses it in explosive rages). When he was younger, all of these liabilities, plus coming from a poor background, would have made him even more undesirable.
<SNIP>
Ah, yes--but you have to be willing to stick around for a closer look. That's not a hard task for a reader, but if you're a witch hanging out at the Three Broomsticks, hoping to meet Mr. Right (or at least Mr. Will-Do-For-Tonight), that's another story.


In fanfic, Snape seems like a very desirable individual. But, you're right. If I were at the Three Broomsticks, and saw this man leering across the room at me, I'd stay far away. Now, if he has more finesse, he wouldn't leer across the pub at someone...but still, a guy like Snape isn't going to be picking up supermodel type girls left and right.

Actually, I'd like to see more Snape/OFC fics where his partner of choice isn't attractive. This bugs me a lot in TV, and commercials, too. Some fat, balding, slob of a guy who's standing over a BBQ with a beer in one hand and a spatula in another, has a lovely, well groomed, slim and trim wife alongside him. Alrightie, getting a bit off-topic here.

Virgin Snape makes sense to me, and I can see Sex-god Snape too. Depends on his back-story. Odly enough, the more I plot out and outline the Virgin Snape story, the more difficult it gets to write the Sex-god he is in my other fics.
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