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| RachelW |
 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:03 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 64
Location: The Republic of Texas
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anna_kat wrote:
Language and mannerism
The first thing that strikes me about his speech patterns is that they don't hint at where he grew up, or which social class he belongs to. His verbal weapon is sarcasm, not crass rudeness. He regularly insults students but he uses 'polite' language doing it. It is not what he says, but how and to whom.
<snip>
His speech patterns lead me to think that Snape wants to project a certain image of himself, and to conceal personal information that might be used against him. His clothes corroborate this impression because they don't reveal his status or any particular quirks. They are black. Period.
On this, I wonder if it could be related (and later reinforced by his spying and DE activities) to the strong probability that he grew up poor? Reading this just struck me on that...because really, even though there have been some interresting stories with 'Snape Manor' involved, there's no evidence that he's from 'old money'.
Anyway, a lot of people who grow up poor end up either just staying where they're at in life, fairly undereducated, bad speech (localised accents that are often associated with the lower classes), and so forth. However, some rail against this fate, and become educated, and work very hard to distance themselves from hints of their background. Speech is often a strong factor...people want to 'sound' educated. So, perhaps his controlled speech could be an offshot of that?
Or, maybe I'm overanalizing again. But, good points Anna_kat. |
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| LariLee |
| Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:33 pm |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Kentucky, USA
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RachelW wrote: However, he doesn't wear trousers...with or without buttons...as we see when he's 'holding his robes up above his knees' for Filtch to look at his mangled leg. So...damn...movie Snape is fanon basically, so all refrences to frock coats are out (blast and double blast!).
I might keep with the buttons on some of my ficlets (yep, plural... damned plot bunnies keep multiplying faster than a kneazle on a lust potion), but I'm determined if "Great Plans" heads into NC-17 status or the lastest germination of Snape with an OFC actually makes it into a story, he won't be wearing anything but boxers and a smile under those robes.
But I'm not sure it can be said he never wears trousers. He still might. It's possible he might have rolled up one leg. Okay, okay, I'm still hoping for buttoned down flies. 
~Lisa/LariLee |
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| snapeaddict |
| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:19 am |
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 48
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Canon Snape does not seem to wear trousers. At least it appears that way on several occasions. For example when Potter and Black have him dangling in the air, his underpants are revealed. That means, he didn't wear trousers underneath his robes. Okay.
But I think we're being too dogmatic. If writers of fan fiction want him to wear trousers...why not? I don't mind. Actually I like the idea and I liked the outfit they created for the films.
Though it was not described like that in the books, somehow it was what I'd imagined his clothes to look like when I read the books. Don't know why, but I always pictured him in some kind of black suit with robes over it. Maybe because my mind's not used to men in skirts, dresses or "robes". I just pictured him with trousers and some sort of frockcoat long before I saw the films and I did, too, when I wrote fics. I don't think that ruins it for everyone, does it?
Maybe I should give canon Snape clothing a chance though. I mean...the idea of "easy access" trouserless robes..... *g*
Reminds me of a stupid "Knock knock" joke. (Nicholas. Nicholas who? Nicholas Potions Masters shouldn't climb trees.) But canon Snape does at least wear SOMETHING underneath his robes.  |
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| anna_kat |
| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:22 am |
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Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 33
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RachelW wrote:
On this, I wonder if it could be related (and later reinforced by his spying and DE activities) to the strong probability that he grew up poor?
<snip>
Anyway, a lot of people who grow up poor end up either just staying where they're at in life, fairly undereducated, bad speech (localised accents that are often associated with the lower classes), and so forth. However, some rail against this fate, and become educated, and work very hard to distance themselves from hints of their background. Speech is often a strong factor...people want to 'sound' educated. So, perhaps his controlled speech could be an offshot of that?
Hm. Someone raised in the UK would be better suited to answer this, but I'll try anyway. I think in the UK localised accents are not considered 'bad speech' exactly. They are more a factual statement that one grew up or lives in a specific part of the country. Almost everybody's speech has a local lilt. In addition, speech patterns and cadences may indicate one's background, but not always one's social class, and class in Britain is a mysterious thing.
It's possible that Severus began to modify his language when he realised that he sounded like Stan Shunpike (the knight bus conductor), and that it stood in the way of his ambitions. It depends on the emphasis that people, who at one point mattered to Severus, place on his background as opposed to his bloodline. If bloodlines matter more than anything, speech won't make any difference whatsoever. In that case, social advancement would not have been the motivating factor.
My guess is that speech, clothes and a general air of menace all add to the imagine Severus wants to project. When that image is shattered in the pensieve scene, Severus' reaction shows that he is deeply ashamed of the boy he was 20 years ago. Dumbledore confirms it later, when he tells Harry that some wounds don't heal.
It still doesn't explain why Severus joined the deatheaters. I mean, the boys who bullied him were purebloods, at least two of them. Joining a cult that sprouts the superiority of people you loathe doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Deep rooted political beliefs about the superiority of purebloods are Lucius' obsession. With Severus everything is much more personal. |
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| LariLee |
| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:33 am |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Kentucky, USA
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anna_kat wrote:
My guess is that speech, clothes and a general air of menace all add to the imagine Severus wants to project. When that image is shattered in the pensieve scene, Severus' reaction shows that he is deeply ashamed of the boy he was 20 years ago.
I've often wondered if the real humiliation wasn't so much that two guys got the drop on him, but his graying underpants which were an indicator that he was poor. I'll assume Hogwarts has some sort of house-elf laundry so they were clean, but old.
When you consider that James and Sirius seem to come from money, it would only emphasize the differences between the boys.
I see Snape's mannerisms as someone who has been trying to escape his past... and some of the Occlumency lessons suggest to me that he was raised in a household that lacked many things, but specially money.
In fact, I've often wondered if, in his school days, he didn't try to emulate Lucius Malfoy... rich, aristocratic, mannerly... and powerful. And I won't believe otherwise unless JKR tells us herself, that good old Lucius was the one who got him into the Death Eaters in the first place.
~Lisa/LariLee |
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| snapeaddict |
| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:45 am |
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 48
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Yes, he definitely seems to be ashamed of his past, maybe even for his family and the boy he used to be. There are indeed a few hints that his family might have been poor. So maybe he is trying to compensate.
There are a lot of theories why and how he joined the Death Eaters. Personally, I think someone who is not very popular and is bullied might be easy prey. If someone told him they would give him power...power to take revenge...that sort of thing. These kind of "dark" and "forbidden" groups often appeal to people who are insecure or being shoved around. There they can feel powerful, strong and important. So maybe that is why he became a Death Eater in the first place, maybe even persuaded by someone like Malfoy. He might have realised it was wrong through some kind of traumatic experience but that's all just me and my theories... |
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| LariLee |
| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:53 am |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Location: Kentucky, USA
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I think there is a lot to show why he would join. He had to be ambitious to be in Slytherin House (and JKR said you can't head a House unless it was your House). I think he was poor. Even though Sirius said Snape ran with a group of Slytherins who almost all turned out to be Death Eaters, his memories in the pensieve show him to be alone an awful lot. Add it all together and I think he was ripe for the plucking.
But why he left... not only left, but became Dumbledore's spy... I see the fact that Dumbledore apparently took no action on Sirius' "werewolf prank" as a rift the size of the Grand Canyon. Yet, somehow, he ended up a spy prior to the murders of the Potters.
And then, I believe he continued to spy on other Death Eaters. What could cause him to basically dedicate his life to that?
I really hope JKR gives us much more Snape in books 6 & 7. Cut the scar-headed kid if you must, but give us more Snape!
~Lisa/LariLee |
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| anna_kat |
| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:00 am |
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Joined: 01 Jan 2005
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LariLee wrote:
I've often wondered if the real humiliation wasn't so much that two guys got the drop on him, but his graying underpants which were an indicator that he was poor. I'll assume Hogwarts has some sort of house-elf laundry so they were clean, but old.
I can't really put my finger on it but I am getting the impression that magical power is at least as important as wealth. We don't know anything about Dumbledore's financial situation, but we know that he is widely revered for his magical power. Severus himself sounds awed when he explains to Harry why Dumbledore has the confidence to use Voldemort's name.
I'll admit though, that I'm not fond of the the idea that Severus envied James and Sirius for their magical superiority. I don't want him to be a mediocre wizard!
Quote: When you consider that James and Sirius seem to come from money, it would only emphasize the differences between the boys.
But Peter and Remus weren't rich, and Severus hated at least Remus just as much.
Quote: And I won't believe otherwise unless JKR tells us herself, that good old Lucius was the one who got him into the Death Eaters in the first place.
Because you like the idea, or because you see it hinted at in canon? |
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| LariLee |
| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:10 am |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Kentucky, USA
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[quote="anna_kat"]LariLee wrote:
Quote: And I won't believe otherwise unless JKR tells us herself, that good old Lucius was the one who got him into the Death Eaters in the first place.
Because you like the idea, or because you see it hinted at in canon?
I think both. Snape is referred to as Malfoy's lapdog. But Malfoy seems to have a lot of influence. And it just feels right to me.
But I think Remus the prefect earned his hatred by Snape for being a prefect and doing nothing during the "Graying Underpants" scene.
~Lisa/LariLee |
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| aphrodeia |
| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:15 am |
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Moderator
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 46
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Does all of this mean that I have to cut the tu-tu scene from my newest fic?
Aphrodeia, thoroughly kidding (no, really, me? write a new fic? heh.) |
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| Diana |
| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:40 am |
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Head Moderator
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 116
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I think one of the biggest pitfalls for any writer attempting to write a Snape fic is that he or she tends to view Snape as he appears in the movies. I'm not saying that Alan Rickman isn't great and that I do not like his performance, because I do, but the Snape we see in the movies and the Snape we read in the books, in my opinion, is hardly the same character.
As I mentioned above, I do not place blame with the actor, but I do place blame with the screenwriter.
In addition to Snape as a character being skewed for the sake of "artistic movie license," there is also the problem of a lot of authors, particularly young fangirls, who only see Alan Rickman. Many of these novice writers are not writing fan fiction based on Snape the character, they are writing fan fiction based on a character played by Alan Rickman, in a movie, who happens to be named Severus Snape.
Another huge problem that I've noticed in a lot of Snape fics is in fact the dreaded control issue. The man is controlling, yes we have established that, but that does not mean that he prowls the halls of Hogwarts with a horse whip striking out at anything that does not walk, talk, and act in a completely controlled fashion one hundred and fifty percent of the time.
Snape's perceived social control also does not mean that he has a ripe and eager virgin strapped down to a rack in his dungeons with a ball gag in her mouth waiting with baited breath for his return, or that he is just as eager to return. Control in ones mannerisms and career actions does not automatically make that person a control freak in the bedroom or in every single facet of their lives. In fact I find it odd that so many writers attribute this rigid line of thinking to Snape...he blows up all the time, completely losing control.
I also have issues with how the theory of Snape's sex life, or lack thereof, is constantly portrayed in fan fiction. The man is either a virgin sex god, a dirty pervert who leers at his students (Hermione Granger in particular, but then again that is okay because she is after all "mature" for her age *snicker* please...spare me!), or a man who has had a bazillion lovers in the past followed by a abnormally long stint into the world of celibacy...but man can he still jump to the occasion and perform for hour long intervals bringing his virgin prey to multiple orgasms!
Why can't a first time sexual encounter between two individuals who are *realistically* interested in one another occur with a bit of awkwardness? There is no shame in being sexually awkward on your first few passes with a new lover, it is real, and it happens, and it has the power to make a relationship stronger, both inside and outside of the bedroom.
My final thought on Snape writing really goes for all Death Eaters. Just like the MLC's and the BDSM with Azazello, nothing will make me hit the back button faster than a Death Eater orgy. Please! Voldemort is a little preoccupied at the moment with attempting to reach immortality and taking over the world to care about his Death Eaters getting their groove thing on with a bunch of disposable Muggles.
Besides isn't it kind of odd that it is always Muggles and muggleborns providing the nightly "entertainment" at these little festive gatherings? In my opinion I can see someone like Lucius Malfoy being more likely to rush home and bathe in a bath full of lime after a simple brush to the side by a muggleborn strolling down Diagon Alley than actually raping a Muggle. Plus the only festive entertainment I see Voldemort being into is casting multiple Avada Kedvra's on a hogtied Dumbledore and Harry repeatedly until they turn green.
Basically writers fall into three categories: those who write strict canon (thanks but I can read the books), those who write a story about a character named Snape with images of Alan Rickman in their heads (again I can read the books, and if I need my Alan Rickman fix I find him much more accommodating in other movies), and those who strike a pretty damn good balance. Canon is your guiding point. As a good fan fiction writer you are constantly walking a high wire and you have to know when to leap forward and when to stand firm. Canon is not a restriction, there are so many avenues you can take with any character and still keep them in canon, but at the same time you have to know exactly when and how to make that leap and when to avoid it.
And just to give the brief run down on what I deem to be in very bad taste are the following...
Detention PWP Snape. I've read it as a fantasy (HG/SS) where Hermione is no longer a student and it simply becomes one of those things couples do which wasn't as bad. I didn't particularly care for the story, but I actually finished it as it was only a one-shot. Hermione as a student who goes to her teacher Snape for detention is not something I enjoy. I think it is sick and in my opinion in rates pretty high up there on my hit list (which includes such things as rapefics). These stories are really just psychological rapefics in my opinion. Snape is taking Hermione's trust and abusing it for his own satisfaction, and that is something I do not think canon Snape would do...no matter how big of a bastard he may be.
Rapefics. This goes without saying, I don't care who the raper is or who the rapee is, I won't read them. I've read one on Ashwinder that was recently posted that I did not mind as it dealt with the real effects of rape, it wasn't a tragic love story and Snape was not the rapist. In fact it was a response to all those horrible rapefics...I'm sure it sailed right over the heads of the hysterical fangirls.
Timeturner Fics. The bane of my existence. Cannot stand them and I especially cannot stand how teenage Snape is portrayed in these pieces of fiction. He is either a whiny jerk, or he's a 40 year old in a 17 year old's body who is a whiny jerk.
MLC's. The second bane of my existence. I've read three total that I could tolerate...ever!
Quote: I've written over 350,000 words about the guy in 16 months. Most of what I've written has been very well received (alright, the fangirls hate me, but like I care?).
A side note here, and completely OT, I apologize in advance. I love your stories, and I'm not a fangirl, but if I don't get my BYA fix soon I'm going to be forced to go "like totally" fangirl on you. |
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| zyliel |
| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:15 pm |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Sydney
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Well. I think that summed it up nicely. A lot more pleasant than page two, I must confess.
(The real purpose of this is to thank LariLee for the wonderful link. I absolutely squealed in joy, especially because his birthday's January 9th... It's a pity it's not 11, my birthday, but still. Thanks so much!) |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:49 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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Cathing up on this after a longish layoff, and a cooling off period, too (?) - always timely.
Coupla points:
1. Three chapters (or a three in one monster 15,000 word chapter) of BYA will be posted barring internet loss on Sunday 16 January sometime in the morning (GMT). Only on Ashwinder.
2. Snape does NOT always wear black. There is actually an incident of his wearing coloured clothes in canon, in the plain sight of c. 1000 onlookers. It's actually at the Quidditch final in POA. He wears green. This is the only colour wearing Snape in canon.
3. The business of his accent is difficult. Clearly Rickman (to me) sounds self-made - and he is indeed a boy from a lower middle class background who has educated the way he speaks. He has a beautiful tone, but it is not upper class. That's "real Alan". He's more clipped in tone as Snape. It is still modulated.
The main Snape origin theories are as follows:
1. Posh rich manor house owning Snape. Dead as a dodo since the Occlumency memories. AK-ed by the flies and gloom in Snape's bedroom as a teen, the rowing parents, and the grey scanties. Grey does not indicate dirt - it indicates over frequent washing, caused by not owning many scanties.
2. Snape the Guttersnipe, as someone suggested to me on my lj. Bilge. We do not have guttersnipes in the UK. What century is some of this fandom living in?
3. Lower class parents - possibly the son of an apothecary, or similar. Snape has pulled himself up by his bootstraps, and has worked on the common "in trade" accent.
4. Old money, new poverty. My theory (though not exclusively mine). They lost their money, ended up poor, and he smarts about it. Pureblood and resentful- and that's how he was attracted to the DE.
The way he talks is not as formal as some make it, just a bit RP (that's "received pronunciation") and having a way with words. Textualsphinx argued in "Letter from Exile" that the man has the soul of a poet. I agree. It does not matter where his origins are - if you are doing SS/HG - remember he's the poetic one (though he's private about it) not her.
Poetic does not mean sappy, either. |
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| LariLee |
| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:25 am |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Kentucky, USA
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zyliel wrote: Well. I think that summed it up nicely. A lot more pleasant than page two, I must confess.
(The real purpose of this is to thank LariLee for the wonderful link. I absolutely squealed in joy, especially because his birthday's January 9th... It's a pity it's not 11, my birthday, but still. Thanks so much!)
Always glad to help. ;-D |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:45 pm |
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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 164
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I still maintain that anyone who writes Snape as if he swallowed a thesaurus and then jammed a formal dictation guide up his bottom hasn't just missed the point, but wildly overshot the mark by a matter of miles.
He's well spoken and fluidic in speech, but he's no great orator. I won't quite stretch to poetic - knows the value of words, yes, but I wouldn't go so far as describing him as being deliberately melodic - but somewhere along the lines he's been grilled about not dropping his Gs, enunciating his words and generally not speaking as if he's got a mouthful of marbles.
If I chance across a really overwritten Snape, I mentally dub in the voice of Stephen Fry. |
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