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| azazello |
 Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:01 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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On the subject of Snape's sexual prowess...
Few things irritate me more than fanfic depictions of Virgin Snape who shags like an off duty pornstar.
Ladies, virgins are not good lovers - not until they have been taught one or two essentials (like lasting longer than three minutes, for instance).
Essentially, far too many fic writers do not think things through. If your fanfic Snape is going to be a sexgod, then to keep me reading (and I always ask how and why, that's because I write myself) you had better make me believe. And if he is a virgin AND a sexgod, I will be hitting the backbutton faster than I can say 'unmitigated cack'. Throwing in a suggestion that he can perform like this first out of the box because he is a wizard will not make me stay either. It might make me call you a silly prat before I hit the backbutton, but that's all.
What many writers forget is one essential fact going on. That Snape, or your depiction of him, is a human being. He is a man. He may well have magic powers, but he's a person. There's far too many Snapefics out there where he isn't even recognisable as human.
Therefore, in a nutshell, if you want to write sexgod Snape provide a sexual backstory. I've done that simply by implying he is a veteran of one night stands, or as he himself put it in my story, "The Only Warmth" - "A veteran of the one night erotic encounter". I don't personally believe he is a man who has an ongoing relationship - he'd not risk such a hostage to fortune in his position, and in fact, I doubt canon!Snape has any sex life at all. However, I think if he did have a sex-life (and face it kids, Jo is NEVER going to tell us) he'd want to be good at it. The man has type A overachiever written all over him.
Personally, I'm not interested in reading about a 36 year old virgin male, either.
So as always, we come back to set up.
Controlled Snape. We all believe control is important to Snape. Sorry kids, I think your BDSM obsession is looking old, already, and ascribing that to Snape is about as subtle as a mallet blow to the back of the head. This man's control freakery is inward. All these fics where some kind of sexual aberrance or kink is applied to him. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It might make for fun porn, but essentially, I'd say you are missing the point.
Oh, and finally. He is clearly English. My final plea is for more writers to try and write him that way. 70% of fanfic Snape's are not English enough, or end up being too damned English with him talking like a refugee from P G Wodehouse. We stopped saying things like "Old bean" many decades ago. There's nothing antique about Snape's English diction, it is merely rather formal.
And he never, ever drawls. Texans do that. Not Snape.
 [/i] |
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| snapeaddict |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:27 pm |
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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azazello wrote: Therefore, in a nutshell, if you want to write sexgod Snape provide a sexual backstory. I've done that simply by implying he is a veteran of one night stands, or as he himself put it in my story, "The Only Warmth" - "A veteran of the one night erotic encounter".
I don't really think it needs a backstory. The man is in his thirties and likely to have SOME kind of sexual experience. Despite his description in the books, he is not THAT unattractive. As I said, he certainly is from a thirteen-year-old's perspective, especially one who is constantly having troubles with him. I mean, why do so many women choose him as a fanfic character and why do we enjoy reading erotic Snape stories? He definitely IS sexually appealing, probably only to older women. He definitely wouldn't knock a teenage girl out of her socks. (They usually obsess much more about the Nick Carter or Justin Timberlake type.)
So for me it it obvious, even without a backstory provided, that Snape - even canon Snape - does have a sex life. It is just not important for the plot of the books and he would in all likelihood keep it well-hidden from his students. (I mean, all teachers do, don't they?) None of the canon teachers seem to have anything like a private life as it just isn't essential for the plot. After all, though many adults read HP, they are children's books. And teachers to pupils are a bit like parents. With a few notable exceptions (I had a crush on my English teacher), they are not supposed to have a sex life. Yuck! 
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Controlled Snape. We all believe control is important to Snape. Sorry kids, I think your BDSM obsession is looking old, already, and ascribing that to Snape is about as subtle as a mallet blow to the back of the head. This man's control freakery is inward. All these fics where some kind of sexual aberrance or kink is applied to him. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It might make for fun porn, but essentially, I'd say you are missing the point.
Okay, I respect your opinion but I think that is also a matter of interpretation. If Snape has a sex life - and I think I made it clear that I think he does - it is very likely that he does not want to grow emotionally attached to anyone. Plus I think he actually IS the type who hates to lose control and that might also be the case in more intimate situations. Why not? Isn't fan fiction all about our own imagination of the characters? It fills the gaps the story leaves and I think there is no such thing as WRONG or RIGHT. We can all just speculate. If you look at canon Snape there might be things like LIKELY or UNLIKELY but as Jo Rowling will probably keep his sex life a secret, there is no WRONG.
I mean, still waters run deep. For all I know, Snape could even be a cross dresser or a foot fetishist, we simply do not know.  Even though I would rather put those possibilities on the "UNLIKELY" list.
Let's not forget, this is all about having fun with the characters and enjoying a good read. Tastes are different, people's imaginations work differently... as long as Snape is not completely non-canon and OOC I will read anything from Fluff to BDSM. |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:52 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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Quote: but I think that is also a matter of interpretation. If Snape has a sex life - and I think I made it clear that I think he does - it is very likely that he does not want to grow emotionally attached to anyone. Plus I think he actually IS the type who hates to lose control and that might also be the case in more intimate situations. Why not? Isn't fan fiction all about our own imagination of the characters? It fills the gaps the story leaves and I think there is no such thing as WRONG or RIGHT. We can all just speculate. If you look at canon Snape there might be things like LIKELY or UNLIKELY but as Jo Rowling will probably keep his sex life a secret, there is no WRONG.
As the kink is usually based on highly dodgy extrapolation, we shall have to agree to differ. It's the current fanfic trend - and I personally think it's more often (really) due to a feeling by the underconfident writer that they have little new to say in a vanilla sex scene, rather than as a result of any character study at all.
What I will say is that reading kinky porn gets very boring very quickly, for me (like about word one - it's not often coupled with the best of writing). And I will also say that applying Occam's Razor as reasoning (what that means is that you say the absence of evidence to the contrary means there is therefore proof) to provide evidence of Snape's kinkiness is deeply flawed logic. And half the time, the kinks are not correctly depicted, either.
For example, BDSM is most commonly introduced into an established relationship of deep trust - whereas in fanfic it usually is not. I'm actually not terribly interested in the depiction of the writer's own sexual fantasies, either. I'd rather read real stories. I'd rather write them, too.
It takes skill to make consenting vanilla het or slash interesting, but it's not impossible. If readers are jaded by good quality and well written erotica, well, I'm pretty sorry for them. I think quality vanilla sex will never go out of fashion, there is not enough of it.
Writing stuff just for the sake of writing it is not actually that good either. whatever I am reading had better make me suspend disbelief for me to continue reading and enjoy. I've read lots of great fanfic, where what came over most of all, was a certain passion on the part of the writer to tell a good story, to entertain, to share their little world. The kink never gets that across at all. In fact the kink takes over the story so much, that there's nothing there for me.
And for what it is worth, I suspect most of the kink and non-con stuff is written with an eye to getting controversy stirred up, and lots of reviews. Only problem is, the fangirls who like that sort of stuff are a fickle audience. They move on.
And before everyone starts having hysterics (and behaving like fangirl armies of the night) over that last remark, I'm not necessarily saying that everyone who likes kinky porn is a fangirl. It sure tends to draw them like flies to honey, though. 
Could we have more actual stories please? Snape's a fascinating character without kink.  |
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| snapeaddict |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:52 pm |
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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Sorry but I can't really follow you. You say that only stories containing vanilla sex or BDSM as being introduced into a steady relationship (which canon Snape is rather unlikely to have) are "real stories". At least that is the essence I read from your lines. But I suspect we're actually just at cross-purposes.
I have read very good Snape fics that were more in the kink department. Some are a bit over the top for my taste and I wouldn't read them or enjoy reading them, that's true but that doesn't mean they are WRONG.
The books give us nothing about his sex life - that is agreed and I didn't use that as proof or evidence of anything, I just meant that it leaves a lot to the imagination of the reader.
I also don't like stories which are not able to make me suspend disbelief - but then: who does? Good writing is always about making events (even the most unlikely ones) appear plausible in the context of the particular piece of fiction. That's just a commonplace.
However, I think that there are writers who actually achieve just that and still move Snape a bit into the kink department. I don't see there is a problem. Of course it helps if it's not completely over the top. So much is agreed.
"My" Snape does have a tendency to avoid situations where he loses control and sometimes even enjoys playing games but it's not really BDSM or anything like that. And I'm not a fangirl either.
Unfortunately, I promised never to publish my Snape fic as I wrote it for a friend's birthday. I would really like to know if you would be able to believe in "my" Snape. It is really hard to explain what I mean here. Probably I'll write another Snape fic sometime and will find out what you think. |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:14 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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Sorry, I cannot see what you have a problem with about what I am saying.
I'm not telling anyone what to write. However, I am exercising my right to say what I prefer to read. And generally it has been my experience that lashings of kinky sex and QUALITY Harry Potter fanfiction are mutually exclusive terms, at least as far as my taste is concerned.
Essentially, it's become a way of "upping the ante" as successive writers vie to see who can write kinkier than thou and story value is usually sacrificed.
Most of the friends I have who are actually into BDSM - as a life style choice and practice and not as a fanfic-bugger-accuracy-lets fantasise, assure me that the sort of stuff being depicted is just not true to reality.
What's wrong with rooting your work into realism? That's actually the reason that the Potter books are so entertaining and successful because Rowling skillfully blends her fantasy (I'm talking genre not sex here) with lashings of entertaining reality. l
Essentially if people in fanfic want to paste their sexual fantasies over the internet (and that's what the bulk of the sort of stories I'm describing are) fine. Don't expect me to read them with pleasure, and certainly do not expect me to accord them any status. That's not what I read fanfic for. I read fanfic because there is not enough Severus Snape in canon. I'm getting a substitute fix until the next measly bit of canon comes out. There won't be enough in the next book, but there you go. Canon!Snape is the pure white heroin while good fanfic!Snape is the methadone solution, if you like. And someone else's sexual fantasy Snape - particularly if I just do not buy into their fantasy at all - is the sort of crap brown I could buy on the streets and fuck my veins up with. Scuse the smack addict analogy, I do not actually and have never taken heroin, but my Snape addiction is seven years old.
That's my view. I'm quite good at making up my own sexual fantasies, see, with or without Severus. So I do not want to read other people's sexual fantasies (with or without some guy who to my reading of canon bears no relation whatsoever to the guy I like). However, I do like reading good stories written by good writers about Snape. And if they include a really good sex scene, fine.
Sorry, much as you all (well there actually aren't that many of you) wish to insist that Snape is a bondage freak, I insist there is not a shred of canon evidence for your beliefs. You believe it because you wish it to be so, not because you can prove it, or satisfy a nay sayer like me, neither by canon evidence or by your writing. And generally, I read these stories one and all as out of character. Clearly you don't. that does not make me wrong or you wrong. However, I think from a canon point of view, I am standing more on the side of the angels.
So for the nonce, I will continue to shake my head and hit the back button. As is my right. And I'll continue to validate such stories without turning a hair so long as they meet the archive criteria. And look for a real story to read in my leisure time.
Essentially, nothing posted here, either today, or up this thread has convinced me that it's for anything other than sensation value.
And in the UK, we do not convict unless the case is proven. Therefore Snape the BDSM guy?
Case dismissed. |
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| RachelW |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:39 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 64
Location: The Republic of Texas
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Your post had me rolling with laughter!
azazello wrote: On the subject of Snape's sexual prowess...
Few things irritate me more than fanfic depictions of Virgin Snape who shags like an off duty pornstar.
I haven't seen many depictions of Virgin Snape...so I can't say on that. But yeah, if a virgin Snape shagged like a demon, then it wouldn't work for me. But, I imagine him as someone who generally doesn't have time to 'get out' and when he does, it's not in a relationship, he may have an aquaintance he gets together with once in a while when he can, or maybe has had a string of these kinds of casual relationships over the years, with large dry periods of several years at a time. I think this would apply to vanilla or kinky Snape too.
azazello wrote: Controlled Snape. We all believe control is important to Snape. Sorry kids, I think your BDSM obsession is looking old, already, and ascribing that to Snape is about as subtle as a mallet blow to the back of the head.
<snip>
but essentially, I'd say you are missing the point.
I like BDSM Snape...to me, he does seem like the type that might go for that, in that I think he has certain things in common with Dom types I've known. I totally couldn't imagine him as a sub. However, at the same time, it would be interresting to see a BDSM Snape that isn't in just a PWP. Also, I think in some things, it can make a point. I'm trying to write plot-driven BDSM Snape...maybe I'm missing the point in thinking I'm succeeding, but I think I'm not just writing a kinky PWP.
Anyway, while I agree that Occam's razor isn't proof for his kinkiness, neither is it proor for his vanallaness(is that even a word?). I think with the right backhistory, it can work.
I can also see certain things in his past leading him to desire complete control in everything, even sexually. We know through canon he wants recognition, and that he's been in powerless situations before, from that Pensive scene, Occlumency scene, and the fact that he joined up with Voldemort, probably as a youthful stupid mistake...and would resent a lack of control. I can see how this might build and morph over time into a desire for control sexually, as well as his tight self-control.
azazello wrote: Oh, and finally. He is clearly English. My final plea is for more writers to try and write him that way. 70% of fanfic Snape's are not English enough, or end up being too damned English with him talking like a refugee from P G Wodehouse. We stopped saying things like "Old bean"
'Old Bean'? LOL Generally, I'd think 'old bean' would be something that is in there with a lot of various cultural and period (even modern) phrases. I tend to think that Wizard society wouldn't have the same types of things because of the different culture, as surrounding English culture and manarisms. English, but still not enmeshed with English culture, does that make sense?
azazello wrote: And he never, ever drawls. Texans do that. Not Snape.
Okay...I've seen this a lot...however, some of Snape's speech patern as depicted by Alan Rickman, sounds kinda like drawling. I suppose...or not...oh hell. This has got to be the biggest problem I have. Does he purr? In fanfic, yes, but not in canon...I did that too much. Does he hiss? yes...I think the reason people put things like 'drawling' in is they're running out of words to describe his voice and speech without getting over-repettive. I'm experimenting with not placing descriptions and qualifiers behind his dialogue in a lot of places, hoping what he's saying and the situation will be enough, so I don't end up saying 'said' or 'hissed' or whatever fifteen times on a page.
Rachel
Texan, but doesn't drawl.  |
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| snapeaddict |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:00 pm |
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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Okay, let's leave it at that. One cannot discuss anything properly if one party is not willing to at least try and let themselves in for the other's argumentation.
Just don't read the stories then but don't take this self-righteous attitude in a discussion like this. You label all people who do not share your views kinky perverts who don't know anything about good story writing and who write this stuff just to get attention or release their sexual frustrations.
As for sexual phantasies, I have mine, other people have theirs, sometimes I find it interesting and inspiring to share them, sometimes I don't. I guess that does not make me a lesser being and having a different view on a fictional character does not make anyone an angel or a devil.
As far as BDSM is concerned, I do know the difference between what it is depicted like in some of the stories and reality, believe me but that wasn't the issue.
The point I was trying to make was: there is no right or wrong in writing fan fiction. If you don't like what these people write, simply don't read it. It is your right to dislike what they write. But you sound very patronising and that I didn't like. Live and let live. If others want to put their sexual phantasies into fan fiction, let them do it. Why look down at them from one's high horse? There are stories I don't like and which do not interest me but I would never dream of presuming to judge the people who wrote them. Maybe they do it to get attention, maybe they don't. How would I know?
azazello wrote: And in the UK, we do not convict unless the case is proven. Therefore Snape the BDSM guy?
The same goes for Germany by the way. I never said Snape WAS the BDSM guy, all I said was that he could be.
Well...I guess I have said everything there is to say about that. |
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| RachelW |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:36 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 64
Location: The Republic of Texas
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azazello wrote: The kink never gets that across at all. In fact the kink takes over the story so much, that there's nothing there for me.
And for what it is worth, I suspect most of the kink and non-con stuff is written with an eye to getting controversy stirred up, and lots of reviews. Only problem is, the fangirls who like that sort of stuff are a fickle audience. They move on.
Good points...I've been thinking more about writing to audiances lately, and realized one can alienate the audiance you're trying to actually write for, and then, when trying to write a longer story with more real meaning and less kink, can end up loosing the ones who were hanging on for the sex too when there's less depicted.
As to controversy...I think controversy is interresting, and not just for the fact that it pulls readers in just to see what all the ruckus is about. If there's controversy about ideas and opinions, it can give the oppourtunity for someone to explore their views on a particular subject, think about it, and perhaps see it from a different POV for a bit. All good things in forming opinions. |
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| RachelW |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:48 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
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Location: The Republic of Texas
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snapeaddict wrote:
The point I was trying to make was: there is no right or wrong in writing fan fiction. If you don't like what these people write, simply don't read it. It is your right to dislike what they write. But you sound very patronising and that I didn't like. Live and let live. If others want to put their sexual phantasies into fan fiction, let them do it. Why look down at them from one's high horse? There are stories I don't like and which do not interest me but I would never dream of presuming to judge the people who wrote them. Maybe they do it to get attention, maybe they don't. How would I know?
I'm not sure there is no right or wrong in fanfic...it's writing, and there is right and wrong in writing.
It is true that a lot of fanfic writers are just doing it for fun, just to write out fantasies, and I don't have a problem with it.
However, there are many of us who are writing fanfic because we want to write 'real' books someday. Fanfic is great writing practice. Analysis and debate about what works, what doesn't, and so forth, is a big help in learning to write.
I may disagree with a few of Azazello's opinions (really, Snape with a whip, it works for me! lol), but I really appriciate the fact that she is able to put her opinions out there so clearly. I can say I've probably learned the most about various things through debate with people who disagree with me. It gives me the oppourtunity to see the other side of things, and makes me really think about why I hold the opinions I do. Sometimes, opinions don't stand up under close scrutiny, other times, opinions are strengthened as I'm forced to come up with supporting argument for that opinion, and learn something in the process.
We're here to learn about writing. Some things don't work for some people, but finding out *why* those things don't work is very good for someone who wants to learn to write for a specific audiance. If people only read what they liked, and never talked about what they didn't like, it would be really hard to find out why people like what they do, and then to learn how to write better because of that.
Really, it's constructive, not destructive. I don't think Azazello is out to just put people down...she's just very outspoken. |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:54 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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I'm not out to put anyone out, however, essentially it is not me who is trying to get my position validated here, and that is inevitably what happens when folks seek validation for fic writing that features content that might offend.
Does it offend me? Damn straight it does, but not in the way you think. It's blatant OOC'ness. In fact, pasting personal sexual fantasy agendas AND insisting there is a basis to support them in canon, is just Mary Sueism in a more pernicious form.
The blanket assumption that Snape the rapist is forgiveable - er, that offends me. If I had ten quid for every time I've seen the writer of a rapefic go on forums to get praise for a badly thought through fic, and then start screaming when other readers commented they did not like their views.
Essentially, those of you who get off on BDSM insist on ramming it down our throats. You do not just post your fics, but instead go on every fic forum saying "Hey, guys, is my BDSM fic a bit controversial or what?" "What do you think, guys?"
Well you've asked me and I told you and now you neither of you like the answe. So, I'll now challenge you to go and write a story that actually has a plot.
Or alternatively, prove to me that there is any canon basis for the following things:
1. That Severus Snape is into BDSM, and insists on it in order to get his dick up.
2. That Hermione Granger secretly adores being treated like horseshit.
Because that my dears is what you are writing and that seems to be what you like. And ladies, I think I will be waiting for a long time for you to prove your points. And that I suspect is what annoys you, the fact that you cannot answer my points by logic so you have to descend the usual whinging when you are outgunned and outargued. That I'm dogmatic and inflexible. Well, I'm inflexible only on the point that there is no canon basis for your characterisation. I'm not saying do not write, and I am not saying do not read, and in many ways I'd like to bet I am more liberal and free thinking than any of you. I am simply arguing the writer's corner here. I say your characterisation of Snape as a Dom is wrong. You cannot defend it from canon. You are writing him that way because you think it is hot. Why not just fess up and say so? I don't mind if that is your attitude.
I actually have no problem with that, but you both came onto this forum and asked for opinions on writing Snape. I suggested that I prefer his characterisation to be largely canonical in origin. I continue to assert that your characterisation of him as some kink (and from my pov BDSM is NOT mainstream sexuality) is flawed and based on woolly thinking. For instance, you have repeatedly used the reasoning tool of Occam's Razor, which says that the absence of canon evidence that Snape is NOT into BDSM implies he can be. By that reasoning, I could argue that because my friend calls round when it is raining, she causes it to rain.
I also have refused to give anyone the validation for their BDSM agendas that they want for the same reason as I won't give validation for rapeficcers who seem to write rape as a rough and ready form of foreplay. Because it is out of canon and out of character - and the rape thing is even worse. It is offensive to rape victims to imply that rape can be fun. Or forgiveable.
All I am saying is write your shockers, do not call them stories - they are porn. Nothing wrong with porn, actually, and I prefer to see porn written by women for other women. It's a lot less exploitative, but these pieces are not writing, they are not stories, and what is more, I personally insist on the right to say and only say that I prefer to read stories that are soundly rooted in the canon as laid down in J K Rowling's fictional Harry Potter universe. Rather than stuff which merely serves the agenda of the writer without any regard for the way the characters are in canon.
Get real - Hermione Granger is not and never will be a submissive - dream on. You may wish to be submissive in your own private lives - do not bolt your personal preferences onto canon characters who clearly do not resemble you in any way. The fanfic term for that is Mary Sue.
I'd finally suggest that when you need to defend your views by launching a personal attack on someone who disagrees, then you might want to accept that you are backed into a corner.
Look, get this straight, I do not care what you write - because I do not have to read it, but do not ask for validation of controversial views on an open forum. You will never get 100% support.
Here's a challenge - write a straight up, love story, no kink, no rape. Consenting between two adults, slow burn. And make it a bit different. Either through situation, or set up, or whatever.
It's a lot more challenging to write that one, and still have readers saying it's excellent one year on. And yet there are writers doing that every day and they do not need any validation from anyone.
Stop screaming just because I don't agree with you. Forums are about having pro and contra views. I express my views forcefully but am not rude. And I'm not saying anything other than the fact that I think you are wrong. If I'd thought you were right, I'd have kept schtum.
Oh, yeah and edited to say this is my final word on the subject. I've said my piece. I think I am right, too. I'd suggest anyone reads what I've said carefully before having a hissy fit about it, as I've made no attempt to curb freedom of speech. Perhaps you'se in the BDSM camp would accord me the same courtesy.
Fire at will...
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| RachelW |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:52 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 64
Location: The Republic of Texas
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I thought we were having a lively discussion about Snape, and about more than just one thing about writing Snape too...manarisms, speech paterns, ect.
I was mistaken, apparently. Sorry. |
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| snapeaddict |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:57 pm |
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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Now you force me to say something again because you always misinterpret everything I say.
First of all, I never had a hissy fit about anything or launched a personal attack at anyone. I never shouted or swore or even offended anyone. I never meant to hurt anyone's feelings or annoy anyone. I just criticised your generalisations and your patronising undertone.
Secondly, I did use logic in my argumentation as well. And I find it incomparably harder to argue my point with such eloquence as English is not my native language. We can try continuing this discussion in German anytime if you like.
Thirdly, I have never been, am not and will never be "in the BDSM camp". You keep using collective terms "you write", "you say". I have only published one thing on Occlumency so far, which is actually a poem - not a very good one perhaps but there you go - and does not contain as much as a hint of kink or BDSM. Still, I don't want to lump together all the authors who do write kink.
I never wrote any rape fic about Snape or went on forums to get praise.
azazello wrote: Essentially, those of you who get off on BDSM insist on ramming it down our throats. You do not just post your fics, but instead go on every fic forum saying "Hey, guys, is my BDSM fic a bit controversial or what?" "What do you think, guys?"
As I never wrote a BDSM Snape Fic, the collective "you" does not apply.
Quote: Or alternatively, prove to me that there is any canon basis for the following things:
1. That Severus Snape is into BDSM, and insists on it in order to get his dick up.
2. That Hermione Granger secretly adores being treated like horseshit.
There is a vast spectrum of things that could count as BDSM. Phantasies of control are one. And control is something, Snape definitely is into. Canon Snape hardly ever lets down his guard or reveals too much of himself or his emotions. (When he teaches Harry Occlumency, he says something to that effect.) IMHO that goes to show that he is rather unlikely to "spill the beans" and express his feelings indulging in sentimentalities and drippy declarations of his love. Do we at least agree on that one?
It also suggests that he likes to keep his countenance and does not like losing control over himself. That, I think, makes it not entirely unlikely that he also likes to assume a more or less dominant role in a relationship.
I totally agree that rapist Snape is way OOC! (Actually, I still think we do not differ quite as much and are just talking at cross-purposes). But he does have a tendency to dominate. He has something like a natural authority. He can make a class fall silent just by entering the room. He does not need to raise his voice, yell or shout. He does not need a whip, chains or nipple clamps and what have you, I was never talking the whole kink department. I meant that he will want to have the upper hand and will want to be in control (or at least pretend that he is). He will do so in a subtle way, not by treating anyone "like horseshit".
I said I could even imagine Snape playing little games and by that I definitely never meant rape as I don't see that rape is a game.
Quote: Because that my dears is what you are writing and that seems to be what you like.
How would you know what I write? As I said before, I've never written a Snape rape fic or anything similar. So please stop generalising.
Plus I never used the terms inflexible or intolerant and I never criticised your opinion, just the snidely and derogatory way you talked about those who do not share your opinion. As I said before, you label them all perverts and their writings claptrap. I do think there are good fictions that play with the idea of a BDSM Snape.
Quote:
For instance, you have repeatedly used the reasoning tool of Occam's Razor, which says that the absence of canon evidence that Snape is NOT into BDSM implies he can be. By that reasoning, I could argue that because my friend calls round when it is raining, she causes it to rain.
This does hardly qualify as a comparison because the latter example would be a cause-effect conclusion whereas the former isn't. The fact that there is no evidence to proof the contrary simply leaves all possibilities open. Now, I accept that you think it is a highly unlikely possibility on the basis of canon. But the term "wrong" simply does not apply. The only one who could safely say if it is or is not "wrong" would be Snape himself or Jo Rowling.
Quote: Get real - Hermione Granger is not and never will be a submissive - dream on. You may wish to be submissive in your own private lives - do not bolt your personal preferences onto canon characters who clearly do not resemble you in any way.
Again, I can only say that I never did. I never wrote any Snape/Granger fics and am not very likely to do so. |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:55 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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| RachelW |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:29 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 64
Location: The Republic of Texas
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Snape's Patronus wrote: I finally had to accept that there were some things I was never going to get Severus to do, think, feel, or say, no matter how much I wanted him to do those things, at least not if I was to remain true to him. I think any well-drawn character has limits, just as real people do, and some characters have much more sharply-defined limits than others.
<snip>
There may be things I want him to do--fall in love, for example. If I'm going to keep him in-canon, however, I have to accept that getting him there is going to take a lot of time, effort, and patience. Even when he does finally fall in love, he will have very different ways of showing it; he is unlikely to engage in traditional "romantic" gestures. And can someone like him actually sustain a relationship? That's open for debate.
For some reason, I just thought of a fic, I think it was a one-shot where Snape and Hermione ended up in something of a non-traditional relationship. They would get together about once a month or so to spend the weekend together. Neither wanted to get married, but he would offer every few years, just in case that's what Hermione might have wanted. It seemed to me like the kind of thing he'd go for, since yeah, I think he would have a hard time maintaining a typical relationship.
Snape falling in love is difficult...very difficult. I tend to think he hasn't experienced much love at all in his life, and it may even be possible he wouldn't know love if he did experience it...he would oppose anything that might be seen as 'wearing one's heart on their sleeve'. |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:43 pm |
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| Keep on going, we might be able to get Sycophant Hex's F_W virginity popped. |
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