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< The Library ~ spotted on the reread |
| Owlbait |
 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:45 pm |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 92
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I'm dipping back to OoTP for reference as I reread HBP and found something really cool. We've seen that Sectumsempra spell before - remember Snape's Worst Memory?
"Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of Jame's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about; a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of graying underpants."
Clearly that wast the Sectumsempra spell Snape used on James - and he cast it silently. He'd already learned the wisdom of not teaching his enemies new curses.
Also note that James cast the Levicorpus spell silently. Sirius on the other hand, verbalizes all his spells. For all James's fooling around, he's on his way to being a really powerful wizard - remember they are only finishing fifth year now. |
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| mouseII |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:07 pm |
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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Check your HBP again  - Levicorpus was always a non-verbal spell.
The fact that Snape also didn't verbalise the sempra spell may be a sign of restraint on his part - James only got a cut on his face. When Harry used the spell on Draco, it sliced Draco open pretty seriously, all across his chest and face. Snape may have known that to hurt James too badly would get him expelled - or perhaps, like Harry, he really didn't have the stomach to hurt an enemy that badly. Either way, I think he did not vocalise the spell because that was a way to control its power.
Interesting that Snape could cast a spell non-verbally by the end of fifth year, but Harry's only learning to do it in sixth year, and finds it very difficult. If there's one thing that HBP has convinced me of, it's that Snape is a friggin' genius.
He invents spells, he corrects potion recipes, he makes Harry look like an idiot in a fair fight despite Harry having taken on groups of Death Eaters in the past... Yikes, that man is dangerous... |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:14 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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Location: Northern UK
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I got the distinct impression that the severity of the wounding caused by Sectumsempra is down to the gesture.
Harry makes a pretty big amount of handgesturing when he fights Draco - and remember he has no real idea at that point what the spell is or the damage it will do. As a result, I got the impression that Draco would have died if Snape had not come along. There was a big tangle of moral responsibility in that scene. Harry is responsible, but Snape himself takes some share of the blame, surely.
In the Pensieve memory, I felt Snape did it much more subtly and with more of a handflick.
The other difference I felt, was that in the Pensieve memory, I got no clear impression of Snape dangling by an ankle, the way we do in HBP when Levicorpus is used. Though to be honest, I don't think that is hugely important. |
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| Owlbait |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:09 pm |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
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mouseII wrote: Check your HBP again - Levicorpus was always a non-verbal spell.
You are totally right. I actually thought Harry had tried to do it verbally in the fight at the end, but he was thinking it.
This does beg the question of how James learned it, since Severus wouldn't exactly have been tutoring him. And don't tell me James was a better Legilimens than Snape was an Occlumens inside their 5th year.
mouseII wrote: Interesting that Snape could cast a spell non-verbally by the end of fifth year, but Harry's only learning to do it in sixth year, and finds it very difficult. If there's one thing that HBP has convinced me of, it's that Snape is a friggin' genius.
He invents spells, he corrects potion recipes, he makes Harry look like an idiot in a fair fight despite Harry having taken on groups of Death Eaters in the past... Yikes, that man is dangerous...
Not to mention the fact that the Death Eaters, and Greyback all defer to him and don't say boo when he kills Dumbloedore, even though they were saying just before he arrived that Voldemort wanted Draco to do it. They all act afraid of him.
And Narcissa is convinced that he would be able to kill Dumbledore if Draco couldn't do it. Something Voldemort has notably failed to do. Of course he killed a deathly ill, wandless, and cooperating Dumbledore so we don't see how it might have played out in a real fight, but it's something that she firmly believed it.
Snape is a totally kickass wizard. I find that pretty hot ;^)
There are so many paralells between Snape and Voldemort - including the dorky self-chosen nicknames - it almost seems as if Snape were a Dark Lord in training. If Voldemort were out of the picture, he could have been the next one nobody wanted to mention by name.
I have this notion that the greatest achievment of Dumbledore's life may have been preventing that from happening, by caring for him and having faith in him. You can all laugh at me in two more years, but I really wonder if that won't be suggested somehow. |
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| Owlbait |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:19 pm |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
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azazello wrote: I got the distinct impression that the severity of the wounding caused by Sectumsempra is down to the gesture.
I hadn't caught that, but it fits the descriptions perfectly.
Quote: Harry makes a pretty big amount of handgesturing when he fights Draco - and remember he has no real idea at that point what the spell is or the damage it will do. As a result, I got the impression that Draco would have died if Snape had not come along. There was a big tangle of moral responsibility in that scene. Harry is responsible, but Snape himself takes some share of the blame, surely.
Harry doesn't come out looking too good in several scenes. Trying to cast Crucio is not exactly showing his moral 'side-of-light' side, and neither is this. Hopefully by book seven he'll channel Dumbledore's reluctance to use that sort of spell.
I'm not sure how much culpability I would assign to Snape. Yes, he invented what looks like a Dark spell and he didn't take care that his book was safe. Still he's only responsible for his own actions, not everyone else's, and his own are quite enough to be going on with. |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:36 am |
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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
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mouseII wrote: He invents spells, he corrects potion recipes, he makes Harry look like an idiot in a fair fight despite Harry having taken on groups of Death Eaters in the past...
Such a Gary-Stu. |
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| mouseII |
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:56 am |
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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liquidscissors wrote: Such a Gary-Stu.
Such a wicked wit. 
Really, I think Liquidscissors is Snape. Surely no one else could be so effortlessly, elegantly sarcastic as that? (Well...maybe Azazello...)
You can't fool us, Severus! What have you done with the real Liquidscissors?  |
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| Lady Whitehart |
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:21 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Location: East Coast USA
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No, Owlbait, I have a feeling you may be on to something. Dumbledore firmly believed in the power of love. I have no doubt that he began to think of Snape as more of a son than an employee at some point. That feeling may have gone back as far a Snape's student days for all we know.
Thoughts of a sad, scruffy, friendless 11-year-old Severus would bring out the mom in me and I would want to do everything I could to make his life a little better... |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:17 am |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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Location: Northern UK
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Quote: He invents spells, he corrects potion recipes, he makes Harry look like an idiot in a fair fight despite Harry having taken on groups of Death Eaters in the past... Yikes, that man is dangerous...
Devils Advocate here:
He gets made complete fool of in book 5, he cannot allow teenage grudges to just die, Harry makes him look a complete idiot in an unfair fight at the end of book 6...
Essentially, I have Snape down as the clever kid with the glasses who no one likes. He's plain, weedy (the kid described in the book 5 memory is no sex god) but like a lot of nerds with a mission, if he cannot get your attention by being nice, he's sure as hell get it by being nasty.
Before the usual suspects start whinging let me say once again, I actually like Snape the character and feel the new book was a breath of fresh air. JKR took the character back from fanon. Go JKR.
But he is sooo not kewl. I felt that beneath the surface urbanity, as evidenced in his bravura performance (or indeed avowal) in chapter 2, is still lurking the nerdy kid with a chip on his shoulder. Most of the time, that kid is tightly buttoned up inside the urbane sounding adult, but under stress out it comes. And how.
The kid who is writing notes in the margin of an old book is not cool. The Potions instructions are brilliant but arrogant, while the spells are increasingly nasty. This lad was one mixed up kid. Did anyone else spot the screaming parrallels between Snape and Riddle, only poor Snape lacked the looks and the facile charm. Both brilliant, both something of prodigies in the Dark Arts.
What I really want to know is the missing bits:
Who, if anyone taught him stuff before school, or did he just use his mam's spellbooks and experiment?
Who loved ya, baby?
And finally, is he from Yorkshire?
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Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail |
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| Lady Whitehart |
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:46 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Location: East Coast USA
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The words were "dangerous" and "genius", I think. And yes, we all saw the parrallels, minus the good looks and charm.
As to where he learned it all, that's a grand question. What's your theory? Because I highly doubt he just grabbed the books and began experimenting willy-nilly. And going on what we now know about his background, I have a feeling that someone may well have recognized his potential and sponsored his education. Both Hogwarts and prior. I'm guessing the Malfoy's. Why? Money, love of power, and anything that will help them get either and both.
The bottom line is: good or bad, Snape is a very powerful wizard. Is he immature? Yes, mostly because the majority of his life has been spent in school. Yes, he is now a teacher, or he was up until the end of Book 6, but he still bullies and intimidates others. He never grew up.
What is the significance of him being from Yorkshire, or is that just a vile curiosity?
I need some sleep, badly. |
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There is no point in arguing with an idiot, they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. |
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| SPK |
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:20 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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azazello wrote:
Before the usual suspects start whinging let me say once again, I actually like Snape the character and feel the new book was a breath of fresh air.
Snape is dangerous because of the way he has chosen to use his skill and intellect.
I agree that Snape is even more interesting since book six and azazello’s comment about him being a kid inside an adult body is a perfect description of how he has acted throughout the series. That’s part of what makes him a sad character. He has the potential to make worthwhile contributions to his world and also could have a lot going for him, but his good points are buried so far under bitterness and insecurity that even he can’t see them, let alone anyone around him. Everybody sees characters differently, but I’ve always had trouble viewing Snape as a calm, collected person. In the books he often seems like a bit of a loose cannon. The man gets so furious he actually spits. His anger is so deep and out of control that he shoved Harry and threw a jar at him for looking at his memories (not that Harry should have been looking in the first place). Also, when he’s trying to teach Harry Occlumency he goes on and on about how Harry needs to hide his emotions, but all the while Snape himself has little or no control over his anger. He’s doing exactly what he’s telling Harry not to do. I think the movies have failed to show the more explosive elements of Snape’s personality, so the film version of the character appears more calm and collected than the book version. I just want to add that while the scripts have not included scenes to adequately display all elements of Snape’s personality, I think Rickman has done a fantastic job of capturing his uptight, serious side. He doesn’t quite fit my personal vision of Snape’s physical appearance, but his portrayal of Snape’s serious side is convincing enough to make me believe he is the potions teacher from the book. To me that’s more important than whether or not he looks exactly like my mental picture of Snape. With each movie I hope to see one of Snape’s emotional fits, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.
This is all opinion only, but from what I gather from the series, Snape has learned to carry himself among his peers because he is intelligent and educated, but his actions can be that of a “street brat” rather than a refined man. It probably sounds like I don’t like Snape, but he’s my favorite character. His flaws make him seem so human and easy to relate to. The only thing that bothers me a bit is the idea that he should be unappealing because of his physical description (thin, pale, yellow teeth, big nose, lank hair). First off, not everyone is swept away by conventionally handsome or beautiful people. What one person finds ugly another might not. Also it takes more than physical appearance to make someone appealing. For some it’s intelligence, for others the excitement of a fiery personality, for others still it might be the ability to identify with a character for whatever reason.
As for holding grudges, I can’t blame Snape in the least for still hating James and Sirius. For his own sake he would be better off forgetting about what they did, but it’s understandable why he’s not able to do that. James was an arrogant jerk who was lucky enough to outgrow his obnoxious behavior. Wonderful for him, but that doesn’t erase the emotional scars he probably left on others. Though there’s no proof in the books, it’s fair to guess that if he enjoyed making a fool of one nerdy kid, he probably treated other “misfits” the same way. Sirius’ little “joke” that could have gotten Snape killed and made Remus a murderer went beyond the usual “kid stuff” and shouldn’t have been taken lightly. The problem I have with Snape is he is so eaten away by hatred he can’t see that Harry is not James, but that’s part of the “child in the man” description. He’s still living in the past. |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:33 pm |
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I soooo want the full exposition on that "prank" (as fandom terms it, not me - I call it a total screw up that almost did murder) in book 7. I mean I literally want to see what everyone was up to in the lead up, and how they behaved afterwards. If there is a watershed moment in the backstory, that is one of them, big time.
I'd bet a great deal of money...
(Well actually about £5) ... that this was the BIG THING that pushed Snape towards the DE (or one of the big reasons).
I'm a Snape fan, not a whitewasher. However, the fact remains is that not only did Snape almost meet one of the most vile deaths you could think of, but Sirius Black nearly set up his best friend for a murder that would have surely damned him.
Clearly, there is a great deal to it. What made Sirius WANT to do that to Snape? At bottom, Sirius Black was not a bad man, and I doubt he was some entirely evil little toe rag at school either. I cannot believe that anyone could be so lacking in imagination as to set that situation up and have no inkling of the consequences. James Potter clearly understood what was at stake, all right, when he saved Snape's life, at risk to his own (and I can understand Snape's pathological resentment that it should be James who saved him).
So what the hell was going on?
/rhetorical question and one you need not answer.
Roll on book 7, I say.
Nothing vile about Yorkshire. I'd like him to be from Yorkshire. A friend is writing a very funny Yorkshire!Snape parody. She was delighted when I offered a certain amount of proof that it might be so. |
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Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:10 am |
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| Pace |
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:44 pm |
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azazello wrote: I soooo want the full exposition on that "prank" (as fandom terms it, not me - I call it a total screw up that almost did murder) in book 7. I mean I literally want to see what everyone was up to in the lead up, and how they behaved afterwards. If there is a watershed moment in the backstory, that is one of them, big time.
I'd bet a great deal of money...
(Well actually about £5) ... that this was the BIG THING that pushed Snape towards the DE (or one of the big reasons).
Hmm.. lemme think... one of the most popular guys in school, whom I hate with a passion and who hates me right back, sets me up for an extremely painful death by the claws of a werewolf, which happens to be one of his friends. I barely escape, saved by someone whom I'd rather push down that corridor so he can join the werewolf, and am now loaded with a life debt. But I am almost certain that the headmaster won't let this go unpunished. Finally they get what they deserve - or so one should think.
Instead, nothing happens. I am forced to keep my brush with death secret and the stupid brat that set the trap for me receives absolutely NO punishment. Life's a <enter noun for female dog here> and no one seems to care about how I feel about all of this, damnit!
And then there's this guy and he offers me what I wanted all along: justice (read: revenge)!
...
I agree that something like this would be motivation enough for someone - anyone actually - the sign their name with the DE. What I now wonder: Dumbledore left Snape to fend for himself when he fell victim to Sirius trap. Instead of punishing the evil-doer, he punished the victim. And Snape, as we know, can hold grudges.
Why on earth would Snape want to return to the man who disappointed him so? What possible reason could he have to side with that man who, by his favoritism, made a traumatic experience even worse thereby most likely ingraining the knowledge that no one is trustworthy into Snape? |
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| anna_kat |
| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:28 pm |
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Pace wrote: Hmm.. lemme think... one of the most popular guys in school, whom I hate with a passion and who hates me right back, sets me up for an extremely painful death by the claws of a werewolf, which happens to be one of his friends. I barely escape, saved by someone whom I'd rather push down that corridor so he can join the werewolf, and am now loaded with a life debt.
We need to look back even further. Ever since Snape's Worst Memory I was wondering why on earth Snape followed Sirius Black's invitation into the Whomping Willow. Almost-death by werewolf happened after the scene we saw in the Pensieve. How do we explain Snape's sudden trust in Sirius' genuine willingness to let him in on the marauder's secret?
Quote: What possible reason could he have to side with that man who, by his favoritism, made a traumatic experience even worse thereby most likely ingraining the knowledge that no one is trustworthy into Snape?
How do we know that Snape didn't feel enormously flattered when Dumbledore bade him not to reveal Remus' condition, thus showing his complete faith in Snape's trustworthiness? Suddenly, Severus was in the headmaster's confidences, suddenly, Severus had something to hold over the headmaster. Who else could claim this?
I see no evidence that Snape felt Dumbledore had betrayed him or had ever shown favouritism. |
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