Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - Dumbledore - Secret Keeper for the oRDER

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alwaysafan

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:52 pm

Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 2 Location: USA

I have a question...If Dumbledore was the secret keeper for the Order, and he's now dead, does that mean that all and sundry now know the location of 12 Grimmauld Street and who is in the Order?

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Kelly

Sakuruth

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:57 pm

Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 7

I would assume it means that that information is no longer so concealed - that is, anyone who makes a concerted effort to find it can now do so. Likewise, its immediate neighbors are more likely to notice loud noises within the building and suchlike, and you can see it from the street again.

But without making the effort to find out either piece of information - and getting around the general secrecy of the Order - the DE are still unlikely to know anything more than usual.

mouseII

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:25 am

Joined: 05 May 2005 Posts: 76

The house itself was probably at least partly protected before the Fidelius charm was added - recall what sort of family Sirius Black came from. They would not want the Muggle postman knocking on the door. So even if the Fidelius charm is now broken, Muggles probably can't come to call (like they can't get into the Leaky Cauldron), and the building is probably still unplottable.

Wizards are another matter. Can Snape now tell Voldemort about 12 Grimmauld Place? Is the Order now forced to move?

Something I've been wondering about is whether spells can be made permanent, or if they always fade away when the spell-caster dies. Harry is released from Dumbledore's spell on top of the Astronomy tower because Dumbledore has died, but what about (for example) the various enchantments on Hogwarts? Do they become weakened when someone dies, or are they permanent? I would tend to think they are permanent. An enchanted portrait or a defensive ward should not break down if someone dies unexpectedly.

And what if the Fidelius charm is permanent? Then Snape still can't admit to where the Headquarters are, but because the Secret Keeper is dead, no one new will ever be able to get into 12 Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore is no longer able to tell them where the Headquarters are.

Diana

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:46 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

Quote:

Something I've been wondering about is whether spells can be made permanent, or if they always fade away when the spell-caster dies.

Perhaps it depends. Sirius says that Mrs. Black placed a permanent sticking charm on the back of her portait at 12 Grimmauld Place. Now, the matter at hand is did she do this before she died, and if she did why did she have a portait if they are only supposed to materialize after the person has died, or before? Maybe on the back of the frame? If she placed the charm before she died, then I would assume that some spells do not fade once the user dies.

I would venture to guess that charms and possibly transfigurations (if they can be made permanent) last even after the caster has passed on. Hexes and curses are probably a different matter. Dumbledore hexed Harry, so if we follow this theory (which I'm sure, like most of my others, will be blown to hell in two years time) then hexes break once the caster dies. Curses, on the other hand, the only information on this matter comes from the end of the first war. Many witches and wizards who claimed to be under the Imperius Curse during Voldemort's first attempt to capture power, were suddenly freed from the curse after the incident at Godrics Hollow. Voldemort, however, did not die. And I'm sure that at least half of the witches and wizards claiming to be operating under the Imperius Curse were full of crap.

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alwaysafan

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:17 pm

Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 2 Location: USA

Hmm..so basically, each question begets more questions. I wonder if DD 'put his affairs in order' since he appeared to know he was getting more frail and was trying to teach Harry about the horcruxes (sp?). If he had, he could have appointed someone else as secretkeeper for the Order.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that the portraits have to be painted before the person dies and that they can't talk until they've died (it was probably a fan fic, I've read so many of them I had a hell of a time trying to sort canon and fan fic in my mind while reading the HBP. If Mrs Black had her painting done before she died (it seems vanity plays a large part in the Purebloods), it makes sense she wanted it in the front where everyone can see it as soon as they enter the house. The permanent sticking charm makes sense then also, for the same reasons. The Black Family Tree also has the sticking charm, doesn't it?

Oops, gotta go..I'm late!

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Kelly

Owlbait

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:27 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

mouseII wrote:

And what if the Fidelius charm is permanent? Then Snape still can't admit to where the Headquarters are, but because the Secret Keeper is dead, no one new will ever be able to get into 12 Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore is no longer able to tell them where the Headquarters are.

Supposedly the charm works by hiding the secret inside a living soul. It is debatable whether that means the soul has to be connected to a living body. You could also argue that the soul lives on and the secret is safe within it.

Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper, but that doesn't have to mean he was the one to cast the spell. It is possible that another person cast they spell, and when they, die the secret will be freed.

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Owlbait

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:39 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

In fact, thinking more about it, I'm becoming certain that the secret keeper is not the spellcaster. Consider the Potter's house at Godric's Hollow:

Pettigrew is the Secret Keeper, no one can find the place to whom he has not told the secret.

Nobody knew Pettigrew had been switched to Secret Keeper, except the Potters and Sirius.

Hagrid was able to go into the house after the Potters were killed and get baby Harry. Since he did not know that Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper, Pettigrew could not have told him the secret. Therefore, The Fidelius charm must have been broken. Since Pettigrew is still alive, it is most likely the death of Lily or James which released the spell - one or the other of them must have cast it. Dumbledore likely knew that this would be the result and sent Hagrid to the house knowing he would be able to find it and enter.

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Lady Whitehart

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:19 pm

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 38 Location: East Coast USA

Maybe that was why Dumbledore wanted to be buried at Hogwarts. Perhaps his death and interment will help keep the new wards and protective spells intact, similar to Lily's protection on infant Harry.

As for #12, Dumbledore's death may have made it inaccessible to anyone outside members of the Order. Keep in mind that Snape will still be able to find it. Hmmmm..... food for thought indeed.

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Owlbait

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:58 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Re #12 - what about Kreacher?

The way Fidelius was explained, you have to be told where the house is by the Secret Keeper. Dumbledore wouldn't have told Kreacher that - he was in the house already, why bother? Yet he was able to leave and come back.

Also Narcissa and Bellatrix, they would have known about the house, and what the address was. They wouldn't know that it was the headquarters of the Order - but you'd think they'd have been suspicious when they can't find a house they've probably visited a zillion times.

For that matter, when Kreacher went to Narcissa, he couldn't tell her that the house was Order headquarters, but he was able to tell her significant information about Harry and Sirius's relationship. Wouldn't that make her suspicious why he would know such a thing?

Pace

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:33 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Cologne (Germany)

Kreacher was unable to say anything about the Order because Sirius forbade it. That is why Kreacher was able to share information about Harry and Sirius whenever he felt like it because the depth of their relationship was not order-relevant. He is bound by blood to do as Sirius says and now, through the will of his late master, to Harry's word.

Also, I think it is somewhat naive to assume that Narcissa or Bellatrix didn't know where the headquarter was. They knew what Sirius' politcal orientation was and Grimmauld Place WAS his home, not theirs; and once Kreachers appeared it was clear where the order had its headquarters. However, I think that there is more to the Fidelius Charm than knowing the address of a place. Dumbledore's note to Harry read 'The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London' - Harry needed the full information to be able to see it: that it was the headquarters of the order and which house it was. Also, in another volume (I think PoA) it was said that Voldemort could have looked into the Potter's house and NOT SEE THEM as long as the Secret Keeper didn't tell that they were there.

So to be able to find headquarters, you did not only need to know where it was and that it was there, you needed the Secret Keeper to tell (=confirm it to) you. Only then would the magic allow you access to the hidden house.

I think I messed that up so I'll try again: knowing the address or knowing for a fact what was located at no. 12, Grimmauld Place does not automatically mean you can find the house; only with the Secret Keeper's confirmation, that is information, of one's persona is one possible to access it.

It 11:32 pm... please tell me that made sense... Embarassed

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Owlbait

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:28 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Pace wrote:

Harry needed the full information to be able to see it: that it was the headquarters of the order and which house it was. Also, in another volume (I think PoA) it was said that Voldemort could have looked into the Potter's house and NOT SEE THEM as long as the Secret Keeper didn't tell that they were there.

So to be able to find headquarters, you did not only need to know where it was and that it was there, you needed the Secret Keeper to tell (=confirm it to) you. Only then would the magic allow you access to the hidden house.

Ah, I'd forgotten that bit. The Grimmauld Place bit all makes more sense now. That still leaves the question of how Hagrid got Harry from the house if the secret keeper never told Hagrid the secret (which was the Potters location) and the secret keeper (PP) was still alive. I'm still inclined to think that it was the death of the spell-caster (James or Lily) that released the secret.

If this is correct then it begs the question: who cast Fidelius on the Order Headquarters? Dumbledore was the secret keeper, so likely not the spellcaster.

-Liz

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Lady Whitehart

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:42 pm

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 38 Location: East Coast USA

But if Sirius was the spellcaster for #12, wouldn't HIS death have caused the spell to be broken? If the spell is truly broken, then Snape (loyalties or not) could still have access to the place. This would leave the place really vulnerable. The one thing that I can see happening in the next book is that if they intend to continue using #12; they will need to put up a whole new set of security measures.

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Owlbait

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:01 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Lady Whitehart wrote:

If Sirius was the spellcaster than the charm would have been broken all year, and Dumbledore would have known it and done something about it, or at least mentioned it. I don't think we've seen anything other than his animagus ability to suggest that Sirius was a good enough wizard to cast Fidelius though. Snape is one likely candidate for spellcaster, but not the only possibility. If he is, and it works the way I think it does, then the charm is still active.

Snape would have access to the place regardless of whether the charm were still active, he had been given the secret by the secret keeper. If the Order wants to continue to use #12 and keep Snape out, they will have to cancel the last spell and cast a new one with a new keeper. I'm not sure that is possible.

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Verity Brown

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:09 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Owlbait wrote:

That still leaves the question of how Hagrid got Harry from the house if the secret keeper never told Hagrid the secret (which was the Potters location) and the secret keeper (PP) was still alive. I'm still inclined to think that it was the death of the spell-caster (James or Lily) that released the secret.

I've been wondering about that myself. We haven't been told quite enough, I think, about the Fidelius Charm to know the details of how it works.

Verity

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