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< The Library ~ The quality of the book itself |
| Verity Brown |
 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:46 am |
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Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Midwest USA
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Two Methyloctane wrote: I guess most of the debate on the characterizations comes from *how* we read the books. Verity, you mentioned you can't relate to any of the characters now, and I now understand why I didn't quite get what you were saying: it was because I do not try to relate to the characters. I mean, I have a lot in common with Hermione (in the fact I'm smart, have male friends, and like reading), but it doesn't help my understanding of the story to put myself into a characters shoes.
I read the books as an observer, someone watching what's going on without involving themselves in the story. I've never been very good at visualization.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I visualize constantly while I'm reading--it's as if I'm watching my own private movie in my head. And if I can't relate to any of the characters, I'm not as likely to enjoy a book (or even to bother reading it, if I can help it).
Quote: Another thing I considered was the ages of the readers. Children will obviously want to be like Harry: he's the hero. But older readers see things and understand them from an adults perspective.
I think this is also very true. I probably tend to get more frustrated with Harry and his friends than a young reader would because I am a parent and a former teacher. This is one of the reasons that I really started identifying with Snape in OotP, because in that book particularly, I can look at Harry and see all the traits that Snape finds so aggravating about him. I wouldn't react to them in quite same way Snape does (thankfully). But I still can and do find myself stepping back from Harry's POV more and more often as the books progress, looking at him from an adult perspective, and feeling frustrated.
Verity |
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| JackieJLH |
| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:27 pm |
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Joined: 23 Mar 2005
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Location: Florida, USA
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Quote: Verity Brown wrote:
I've never done anything unethical over a boy. I never did anything stupid or irrational over a boy (well, a man, really) until after I became engaged to one (the same one I'm married to now, 18 years later). Maybe I'm in a very small minority. But none of my friends, either in high school or college, ever acted the way that Hermione, Lav and Won-Won act in this book. That level of immaturity is so low, I think most of my friends probably passed it in elementary school.
I can pretty much say you would be in the minority. I can't actually remember being that immature at that age, but I've learned from years of working with teenagers from age 14 to 19 that a great deal of them do stupid things in the name of 'love'. No, not every one of them. Some have a bit more sense then others at that age. But teenagers naturally act more irrationally, more impulsively, than the average adult, and are sometimes prone to do immature (and yes, occasionally unethical or stupid) things over a boy or girl of their liking. |
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I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway. |
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| Lady Whitehart |
| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:17 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Location: East Coast USA
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I think a more interesting question would be: How will Ron react when he finds out? Somehow, I just don't think he will be all that happy about it. 
Like a lot of people, I felt like the book was rushed. There was just so much information that was crammed in there. The biggest part I felt was missing was the emotional level of the characters. We were shown way too much of their hormones. Sorry, but Won-Won and Lav-Lav made me gag! Right along with the 'creature' in Harry's chest or points south more likely.
If I've ever done anything that embarrassing or immature over a boy, I must have been so mortified that I've blocked out the memory. Then again, I never really had much of a social life in high school 
On that note, I should really go and tend to my plot bunnies. |
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| Diana |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:58 am |
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Quote: I've never done anything unethical over a boy. I never did anything stupid or irrational over a boy (well, a man, really) until after I became engaged to one (the same one I'm married to now, 18 years later). Maybe I'm in a very small minority. But none of my friends, either in high school or college, ever acted the way that Hermione, Lav and Won-Won act in this book. That level of immaturity is so low, I think most of my friends probably passed it in elementary school.
Of course, to be fair, you probably didn't have the threat of a derranged wizard on the loose and after your head on a silver platter either. I'm not saying this to be sarcastic, but if we look at the issue rationally, then we have to take all aspects of the story into consideration.
I think another issue to consider, as well, is did you attend a boarding school? Believe it or not, that makes a difference. A huge difference. Unlike regular high schools (of course, to be fair again, I wouldn't know, I never attended one) where you go home and are with your family at the end of the day, at boarding school friends and school is basically your whole life. Incidents such as the ones with Harry and Ginny or Ron, Hermione, and Lavender are heightened because, essentially, their whole lives revolve around these issues. That is basically it...there isn't any ditching the friends to spend the weekend at Grandma's house with your ten cousins and family issues to deal with and take your mind off of the friendship stuff.
Quote: Like a lot of people, I felt like the book was rushed. There was just so much information that was crammed in there. The biggest part I felt was missing was the emotional level of the characters. We were shown way too much of their hormones. Sorry, but Won-Won and Lav-Lav made me gag! Right along with the 'creature' in Harry's chest or points south more likely.
Again, with the boarding school issue. It is roughly at this age (15-17) when the hormones explode. Being in close proximity with basically no escape for most of the year will lead to this sort of behavior. I can say, that compared to my experience at school, Harry and his friends were positively tame. Of course, JKR does have a fanbase of children to consider when she is writing this story and there is such a thing as going too far. Basically, she has miles and miles to go before she reaches just how insane and immature the whole situtation can realistically get. |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:21 am |
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Quote: at boarding school friends and school is basically your whole life
Seven years of boarding school here, and I can vouch for that. If you haven't been to boarding school, you can only guess at how big a role it plays in your life. Your friends are now like your sisters, arguments turn into bitter battles and everything is heightened three-fold.
99% of boarding schools aren't mixed, and in a way that makes the whole issue of raging hormones far worse. Outside of holidays, a chaperoned trip to the city or the annual heavily monitored school dance, there are no outlets. Many women I went to school with have no idea of how to relate to men, or how to manage being without a large support network.
Confunding someone or DELETE face in the common room is unbelievable tame and exceedingly normal, no matter how much you think the Hogwarts students should be sexless or Dick and Jane clones.
Also, anyone who says that they've never acted silly over a crush or generally acted like a teenage is either a.) a liar or b.) deliberately claiming selective amnesia. No matter how mature you feel you were, you were a bundle of developing hormones once as well  |
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| Lady Whitehart |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:33 pm |
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I'm not saying I didn't do immature things, because I did. I will own up to all of them. Actually, some are very funny twenty years after the fact. It's just none of them were to impress a boy. As for making out in the hallway, my dad was the principal at my high school -- detention at school followed by death at home -- not worth it! Anyway, I was the nerdy girl with the thick glasses and her nose stuck in a chemistry book.
I think the reason Hermione came across as so irritating was because she had always been the level-headed one, the voice of reason, etc. and now she is just your garden-variety teenage girl. Such is life. |
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| Owlbait |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:43 pm |
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I was the nerdy girl too, reading SF, playing D&D. Since nerdy boys had hormones too, it was rather like shooting fish in a barrel. No boarding school necessary ;^)
I'm not admitting to anything, but boy was I a twit. I think it's so irritating seeing Hermione and WonWon Act like that because it is too true to life. I lived it, I'm deeply grateful to be over it, and I don't really want to relive it by reading it. KWIM? |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:03 pm |
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Diana wrote: I think another issue to consider, as well, is did you attend a boarding school?
No, I didn't. And you're right, that probably does make more of a difference than I had considered. Having one's parents around is a very steadying influence (at least it was for me).
Thinking about this actually reminds of summer camp, which I hadn't been thinking of before. Having observed the high level of emotions there (even among pre-teens of only one gender), I can imagine that co-ed teenagers could get very...overwraught.
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:12 pm |
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liquidscissors wrote: Also, anyone who says that they've never acted silly over a crush or generally acted like a teenage is either a.) a liar or b.) deliberately claiming selective amnesia. No matter how mature you feel you were, you were a bundle of developing hormones once as well
Silly is one thing (and I will definitely confess to having been that, on a number of occasions). Stupid and unethical is quite another. As for hormones, I grew up in an environment where heavy moral weight was placed on controlling one's own developing hormones, rather than allowing them free rein. Please don't suggest that I'm untruthful, just because my life experiences differ from yours.
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| Max |
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:13 am |
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liquidscissors wrote:
Confunding someone or DELETE face in the common room is unbelievable tame and exceedingly normal, no matter how much you think the Hogwarts students should be sexless or Dick and Jane clones.
As a former student of a (mixed) boarding school I can confirm what liquidscissors said. Although my school (the same Hermann Hesse was in) is owned by the Lutheran Church and around 75 % of all kids there were offspring of clergymen snogging and a bit more in the common rooms was (in 1974-1977 as I was there) quite normal and nothing any teacher (even not our director who was a clergyman) would have bothered about. No one expected us to be little saints. We were seen as teenagers and teenagers' main interest is the other gender - so what? |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:37 am |
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Personally, I liked Hermione much better in HBP simply because we might see an end to silly stories where she's supposed to be more intellectual than Camille Paglia.
I blame that "cleverest witch of your age" remark. It actually means she's clever for 14. Not that she's the cleverest witch of the time. It's been talked up to ridiculous proportions, and poor Hermione has been suified beyond redemption. I've seen fics where she taught herself classical greek in an evening. It's just stupid. She's brainy and swotty, that is all.
I'm also personally smug she did silly things. In my own fanfic, some loser reviewed that I'd written her out of character when she behaved emotionally unwisely, and that she'd never do such. Well, HBP upheld my characterisation of her as smart enough, but as capable of emotional errors as any of us.
Of course HBP blew my characterisation of Severus in that story to smithereens, but seeing as everyone's characterisation of him was shot to shit, I don't mind that much. |
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| Pace |
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:44 pm |
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Please don't go all ballistic on my after I say this, but in some places I had the feeling I was reading bad fanfiction. The reason for this feeling was already elaborated: there was so much information being 'transmitted' in a very short time, although I found it refreshing to find out more about Voldemort & his past.
I admit that some things, like Hermione's actions concerning Ron, irked me, but then again: Hermione's acted like a 40year old throughout the series and it was about time that someone introduced her to the highs and lows of puberty - and you don't have to attend a boarding school to (repititously) do something absolutely emberassing and immature because of a guy you like. Also a theory of mine was confirmed, namely that Hermione is not the little genius most make her out to be. She is undeniably smart, but people, especially teachers, are easily impressed if you know books off by heart - I should know: that's what kept me on top of most of my classes.
What I also found disturbing was Harry's apparent lack of grief. He falls into a fully-fledged depression over the death of someone he knows only barely (Cedric), but the death of his godfather, the closest thing to a parent he ever came, appears to be of minor importance (I think it's not even a whole paragraph). It can't be all because of him growing up; remember his reaction when Dumbledore dies.
On the other hand, the book has to be different from the others because it marks a turning point in the series. Until now, Harry was not acting, he was merely reacting to whatever fate (JKR) threw at him. Now he finally goes out to DO something. |
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| mouseII |
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:01 pm |
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I just got through my second reading of the book (which was accompanied by reasonable breaks and proper amounts of sleep, unlike the first time), and I'm feeling much more charitable about it now. I still don't think Half-Blood Prince was as well written as some of the other books in the series, but I don't think it's badly written now - which was my first impression.
I do still think that the sheer quantity of blossoming romances was unbelievable, and that some of them needed more foreshadowing - Lupin/Tonks being the main example, I didn't see it coming at all, so I think the foreshadowing on that one (which was there) was too subtle. Won-Won and Lav was still icky, but I guess that was the whole point; it was supposed to make you want to retch. Still, some of the book was like bad fan fiction - Harry smooching Ginny out of the blue, and having their relationship suddenly become instant perfect love, was far-fetched.
I still think a lot of characters got short shrift, Mytle, Luna, Neville and Ginny in particular. And Hermione's personality seemed muted, perhaps because she was reacting to things most of the time, instead of popping out with great insights, or building SPEW, or just generally being passionate about things. Normally she's a more active creature in the books; in this book, she spends a lot of time trying to hide what she's feeling. Ron also seemed muted, but that may have just been because the story centres so much more heavily around Harry this time around. Dumbledore becomes more of an important character than Ron or Hermione, where he's always been a vaguely Father-Christmas-y figure in the background up to this point.
And I still love the way Harry, Snape, Draco and Dumbledore all became much more believable people. I also still love the sheer volume of information we got this time around, how cleverly things in this book were foreshadowed in previous books, and how there are all sorts of tantalising clues lying around but I still can't guess what the ending for the series is going to be.
I do agree that Harry doesn't freak out nearly enough over Sirius' death. He stays at the Dursley's house for two weeks, and appears to basically be over it by the time Dumbledore picks him up. Based on the end of Order of the Phoenix, I thought Harry would be at Snape's throat for the whole of this book, but instead, they got on in a more civil manner than they have before... Weird. They BOTH were behaving in a less childish manner to one another. |
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| Sakuruth |
| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:15 pm |
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mouseII wrote: Harry smooching Ginny out of the blue, and having their relationship suddenly become instant perfect love, was far-fetched.
Keep in mind the books are largely from Harry's perspective. As far as he, a sixteen-year-old boy, is concerned, it's strong emotional attachment of a sexual nature. The division between lust, infatuation, and love is blurred for sedate adults; for teenagers, it may as well not exist at all. Of course Harry feels strongly for Ginny; he feels strongly about nearly everything, and I don't see why Ginny should have been an exception.
Sure, I don't think it would be reasonable for him to find - and acknowledge - his One True Love at sixteen. But he might well think he had, and that's what the books will communicate.
As for smooching 'out of the blue,' I didn't much see it that way. He acknowledges his emotions regarding Ginny well in advance of the kiss (or at least their existence). Is it impulsive? Sure. But then, I wouldn't expect anything else from Harry, who has been ruled by his impulses since we first met him, and is now faced with impulses spurred by hormones. Normal boys can rarely resist that; Harry wouldn't stand a chance. |
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| gidget |
| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:59 pm |
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| I have always loved Hermione in the books, but it astounds me that noone considers why her behavior changed. Example: Harry's personality went from normal(as normal as it got for the Boy-everything-happens-to anyway) in Gof to angry CAPSLOCK!Harry in OotP. This was a huge character change and everyone was all, well, he saw Cedric die and Voldemort rise, of course he'd change. Doesn't the same apply to Hermione? She had the first casualty that affected her happen in the end of the Fifth book, in that she actually knew and was somewhat close to Sirius, and she was almost killed herself. I think a large part of the reason she acted the way she did in HBP was a reaction to almost dying. I can only hope that as we go into the Seventh book, she realize she overeacted and get back to the character we all love. |
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