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< The Library ~ The quality of the book itself |
| mouseII |
 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:36 pm |
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Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 76
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I'm a little sleep deprived, having just ploughed through my recently arrived copy of HBP in a single eleven-hour overnight reading binge. As a committed Snape lover, I'm of course highly traumatised, but let's not get into that! It's a matter that's being dealt with very eloquently in other threads. 
Sycophant Hex is a community of writers and readers, so I wanted to get people's opinions on the book itself. Let me first say that I am delighted to (finally; that bloody stupid post office) have the new book in my hands, and will certainly reread it as often as I have all the other books, but I do have some criticisms of it.
Some of my comments below are positive, and some are negative; I doubt that JKR trolls around here very often, so I'm not going to bother being tactful. Please comment freely on what I've said, or what you personally thought of HBP as a work of fiction.
1) This book isn't as well written as the other books are. Things happen that aren't fleshed out very well. It feels less like a coherent story and more like an author trying to plough through a LOT of information in a hurry. JKR spends a bit too much time "telling" rather than "showing".
2) Hermione breaking the rules on Ron's behalf in order to keep him on the Quidditch team is something I would consider out of character for her.
3) Some characters became wonderfully adult and human in this book, where they hadn't been before. Examples: Snape, Draco, Harry, Dumbledore.
Other characters became two dimensional and cliche. Examples: Moaning Myrtle, Luna, Ginny, Hermione, Ron.
Still others essentially only had cameo appearances, like Neville and McGonagall. The case of Neville seems particularly odd to me, given that book 5 implied that the D.A. were going to be taking on a larger role in the main story arc, rather than fading into the background along with everyone else (which appears to be what's going to happen).
4) What a nasty mess of shipping this book contains. Is this canon or fanon? Has fanfic tainted JKR, or is she just too powerful a writer now to be subjected to the indignity of an honest editor? Ron and Hermione, okay, but Filch and Pince? Bill and Fleur? Who cares?
5) Is it just my bias showing, or are Snape's scenes all noticeably better written than the rest of the book is, in general? (I'm not complaining, mind you... Did I mention that I love Snape?)
6) And is it my bias again, or is Snape a sexier devil than ever (for those of us who already adored him) - even taking the murder into consideration? In his dialogue in book 6, Snape is witty, adult, shows great intelligence, and ... well ... just isn't as indiscriminately nasty as he has been up until this point in the series. For example, his comment to Harry about James always needing to gang up four to one on a target is a much more sophisticated jibe than Snape usually levels at Harry. Plus there are virtually no physical descriptions of Snape in book 6 that cast him in a bad light; JKR seriously eased off on references to his big nose and greasy hair, etc.
In fact, it almost seems a foil to what has gone before in the series: previously Snape was this ugly mean guy who might have redeeming qualities, and now he's a blandly-described lucid man who murders.
Again, I'm not complaining. I may be traumatised, but I still love Snape. He's still the most interesting character in the series.
So what do you all think? |
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| Two Methyloctane |
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:55 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Calgary, Canada
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I think most of the points you have brought up are being discussed in other threads at the moment.
Threads to check:
"Characterizations in HBP" for opinions on how JK handled the characters,
"We're taking on water! The ships, they are a-sinking..." for the discussion on the pairings (there are a couple more, but thats the main one), and
"Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?" has the sort of main discussion on the book itself, although it is obviously discussed in other threads.
Most of the points you listed have been mentioned, and there are some very good discussions in some of the other threads. |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:47 pm |
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Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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Location: Midwest USA
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mouseII wrote: 1) This book isn't as well written as the other books are. Things happen that aren't fleshed out very well. It feels less like a coherent story and more like an author trying to plough through a LOT of information in a hurry. JKR spends a bit too much time "telling" rather than "showing".
I didn't find it less well written, but it did indeed feel as if the author was trying to plough through a lot of info. There is virtually no "filler" in this book. One of my criticisms of GoF is that it has way too much filler; HBP may not have quite enough. It's lean and mean. Maybe a bit too much so.
Quote: 2) Hermione breaking the rules on Ron's behalf in order to keep him on the Quidditch team is something I would consider out of character for her.
I was really shocked at Hermione's behavior in this book. Not that she's never broken a rule before, but this book seemed to amplify all of her worst traits and diminish all of her better ones. I suppose the thing that seemed oddest about Hermione cheating to get Ron onto the team is that if she's hoping to get him to notice her, it seems like it would be in her best interest for him not to be on the team. At any rate, I found it next to impossible to identify with Hermione in this book, which is a big change.
Quote: 3) Some characters became wonderfully adult and human in this book, where they hadn't been before. Examples: Snape, Draco, Harry, Dumbledore.
I was really impressed at the way Draco fleshed out. He had become rather "cardboard evil" in the last couple of books, to the point where I thought it was unlikely he could ever be redeemed. But in this book he is definitely more human.
Dumbledore is less "perfect" than before, which I confess that I appreciated. Snape does seem a good deal more human (until the murder, of course). His interactions with Narcissa and Draco, in particular, showed that he does feel something for Draco, although there's no clear explanation yet why that's the case.
Harry...I don't know what to think about Harry. Yes, he isn't the little whiner he was in the last book. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be as good a friend as he once was. Of course, his friends are too busy snogging to need much friendship from his quarter, but still. I'm actually rather worried about Harry--he is so full of hatred, he has tried again to use an Unforgivable in battle, and his use of the Sectumsempra spell, when he had no idea what it would do, was actually criminally reckless, in my opinion. I hope that she doesn't choose to ignore this apparent "wrong direction" Harry seems to be heading off into.
Quote: Other characters became two dimensional and cliche. Examples: Moaning Myrtle, Luna, Ginny, Hermione, Ron.
Still others essentially only had cameo appearances, like Neville and McGonagall. The case of Neville seems particularly odd to me, given that book 5 implied that the D.A. were going to be taking on a larger role in the main story arc, rather than fading into the background along with everyone else (which appears to be what's going to happen).
I think this was a consequence of not having any room for filler. I was thinking today that there's very little humor in this book. Luna's commentating is one of the few examples of something funny.
Quote: 4) What a nasty mess of shipping this book contains. Is this canon or fanon? Has fanfic tainted JKR, or is she just too powerful a writer now to be subjected to the indignity of an honest editor? Ron and Hermione, okay, but Filch and Pince? Bill and Fleur? Who cares?
Tonks/Lupin really felt fan-fic-ish to me. But that was the only one.
Quote: 5) Is it just my bias showing, or are Snape's scenes all noticeably better written than the rest of the book is, in general? (I'm not complaining, mind you... Did I mention that I love Snape? )
I love Snape, but I didn't notice his scenes being any better.
Quote: 6) And is it my bias again, or is Snape a sexier devil than ever (for those of us who already adored him) - even taking the murder into consideration? In his dialogue in book 6, Snape is witty, adult, shows great intelligence, and ... well ... just isn't as indiscriminately nasty as he has been up until this point in the series. For example, his comment to Harry about James always needing to gang up four to one on a target is a much more sophisticated jibe than Snape usually levels at Harry. Plus there are virtually no physical descriptions of Snape in book 6 that cast him in a bad light; JKR seriously eased off on references to his big nose and greasy hair, etc.
In fact, it almost seems a foil to what has gone before in the series: previously Snape was this ugly mean guy who might have redeeming qualities, and now he's a blandly-described lucid man who murders.
Well, there is the nastiness toward Harry during the Inferi lecture. But other than that...part of it, I think, is that we don't see him interacting much with Harry throughout most of the book. But his behavior does, in some ways, seem toned down. His reaction to being named DADA professor, in particular, struck me as different than I would have expected the Snape of the past to act. On the other hand, some people see his "I, the Half-Blood Prince" speech as being as childish as he's ever been. But you make a very good observation. Previously, JKR has gone out of her way to make sure we know how evil-looking and nasty Snape is. In this book, he is shown as caring (toward Draco), not quite as horrid toward Harry (I'm thinking in particular of Harry's attack on Draco, for which Snape could very rightfully have tried to have him expelled), and his unpleasant personal characteristics are not harped on. Just the murder.
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| mouseII |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:55 am |
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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Quote: I think most of the points you have brought up are being discussed in other threads at the moment.
Would people like me to delete this thread? I have no objections, if these points are being dealt with better elsewhere.
But thanks for your response, Verity! |
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| Beulah_Page |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:42 am |
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Location: Nebraska, United States
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| Verity, I disagree about there being very little humor. There were several priceless lines, and I was cackling throughout the book (well, except the last few chapters, then I was teary-eyed). I thought that there was a good amount of humor for balance so that it didn't become oppressively dark. |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:49 am |
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Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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Beulah_Page wrote: Verity, I disagree about there being very little humor. There were several priceless lines, and I was cackling throughout the book (well, except the last few chapters, then I was teary-eyed). I thought that there was a good amount of humor for balance so that it didn't become oppressively dark.
Can you remind me of the parts that were funny? Aside from the original scene with Slughorn (trying to pursuade him to teach) and Luna's Quidditch commentary, I can't remember anything that made me laugh. Lots of oooo's and ah's and oh's, but not a lot of chuckles. Maybe I've just forgotten?
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| Beulah_Page |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:46 am |
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Well, Verity, these were some of the moments I thought funny (not all guffaws, but some are) in no particular order:
An adult woman who still answers to "Cissy" - childishly amusing, as was "Mollywobbles". The whole scene with the Dursleys - the glasses clinking against their heads, Dumbledore's "accidental rudeness" comment (among others). You mentioned the scene with Slughorn...were you thinking of Dumbledore's comment about knitting patterns? I loved that. So typically Dumbledore. Phlegm - enough said. Most of the scene at Weasley's Wizard Wheezes - remember the U-No-Poo? Luna on the train (or, really, any scene with her). Pansy stroking Draco's hair...god, he's such a pretty boy; I'm surprised his pride allowed that. Slughorn's Christmas party. Christmas at the Burrow - the song "A Cauldron Full of Hot, Strong Love". Won-Won and his "my sweetheart" necklace. And missing half of his eyebrow Apparating. And pining over Romilda Vane because of the love potion. Hepzibah Smith and her house elf Hokey - good lord, what a name. Trelawney and the cooking sherry. The Spell-Check quill owned by Roonil Wazlib. The dyslexia resulting from too much of Rosmerta's mead after Aragog's funeral. Harry telling Goyle that he was "very pretty" - oh, god, that was priceless. And of course, Luna's Quidditch commentary.
I don't know if you'd agree or not; if I'm the only one who thought these were funny, oh well. |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:14 am |
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Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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Beulah_Page wrote: Well, Verity, these were some of the moments I thought funny (not all guffaws, but some are) in no particular order:
-snip-
I don't know if you'd agree or not; if I'm the only one who thought these were funny, oh well.
You know, I had forgotten a lot of those. Yes, I would agree that those things were funny. I guess I was overwhelmed by the last part of the book. I think it put my funny bone entirely out of joint for over a week. Thanks for reminding me of the funny stuff.
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| Sparrow |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:12 pm |
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Hey, what's wrong with a grown woman being called "Cissy".  |
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| Marianne |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:45 pm |
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Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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What I had really loved in the other books - especially in OotP -were the descriptions and the beautiful language. Though my greatest shock was Snape killing Dumbledore my first impression of the book was that there is very much action in the HBP but less space for your own imagination. My favourites are 3 +5
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| celeritas |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:02 pm |
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I found that this book was a hell of a lot darker than the others. It was just so depressing! I mean, it certainly had its uplifting moments (most of which involved the Weasleys) and yeah, it made me laugh, but there seemed to be this overwhelming sense of darkness, for wont of a better word, hanging over the whole thing.
I was certainly thankful that Harry was no longer such a petulant, spoiled little brat, but I also didn't understand the new characterisation of Hermione. She's always been the character that I was able to identify with throughout the books, and in this one she becomes a hormone-crazed bitch! I didn't like her one bit in this book. She's suddenly keen to impress Ron and I don't think that it works in context of what we have seen of her before.
And I still love Severus too.
celeritas x |
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| JackieJLH |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:44 pm |
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I think Hermione was definitely a little different in this book than the last five, but we can probably just atribute that to being a sixteen/seventeen year old girl who seems to have hit puberty a bit late. I mean, how many women here can honestly say that they have never done something stupid, irrational, unethical, etc. over a boy? In fact, how many can claim to even have done that only once in their life?
Being a teenager, and especially being a teenager with a crush (which is your entire world at sixteen, despite whatever else you're doing or dealing with) makes you into someone completely different sometimes. Same thing that often causes parents to suddenly go 'Who are you, and what have you done with our daughter?' |
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I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway. |
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| Beulah_Page |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:07 pm |
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| Celeritas, I'm not contesting the book was dark; thinking where the story arc is taking us, it seems appropriate. I just wanted to point out that there were humorous moments and that JKR was trying to balance it a bit so that there wasn't such a huge shift in tone, to make it more gradual from what we saw in Phoenix to what will be in book 7. |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:31 pm |
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JackieJLH wrote: I mean, how many women here can honestly say that they have never done something stupid, irrational, unethical, etc. over a boy? In fact, how many can claim to even have done that only once in their life?
I've never done anything unethical over a boy. I never did anything stupid or irrational over a boy (well, a man, really) until after I became engaged to one (the same one I'm married to now, 18 years later). Maybe I'm in a very small minority. But none of my friends, either in high school or college, ever acted the way that Hermione, Lav and Won-Won act in this book. That level of immaturity is so low, I think most of my friends probably passed it in elementary school.
I've always identified a lot with Hermione, but not anymore. In fact, I'm not sure who to identify with now. During OotP, I shifted over pretty firmly from identifying with Harry to identifying with Snape. Now all I have left (in canon) is Harry, and although he's recovered somewhat from his OotP tizzyfits, I still have some significant problems with him as a character I could identify with. Maybe Ginny will come more into her own in book 7. Or not. I have pretty well resigned myself to having to take a more distant perspective on book 7.
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| Two Methyloctane |
| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:17 am |
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I guess most of the debate on the characterizations comes from *how* we read the books. Verity, you mentioned you can't relate to any of the characters now, and I now understand why I didn't quite get what you were saying: it was because I do not try to relate to the characters. I mean, I have a lot in common with Hermione (in the fact I'm smart, have male friends, and like reading), but it doesn't help my understanding of the story to put myself into a characters shoes.
I read the books as an observer, someone watching what's going on without involving themselves in the story. I've never been very good at visualization.
Another thing I considered was the ages of the readers. Children will obviously want to be like Harry: he's the hero. But older readers see things and understand them from an adults perspective. I can't speak for anyone else, but it is something I've noticed. I think it may help older readers to immerse themselves in the world and the characters simply because we may be too jaded or too knowledgeable to enjoy it with the same fascination as children.
But, personally, I had no problem with the characters. I think the biggest reason for this is that I am very near their age (I will be 20 in October) and the emotional and life-changing experience that was my mid-late teens doesn't seem as jarring or out of the ordinary. I remember many times when my mom or friends or whoever had remarked on how much I'd changed. I did stupid things no one would've expected from me, risked punishment and occasionally broke laws for guys I liked. I liked guys who were close friends, even if they were completely not my type.
So I don't think its that JK is writing the characters "OOC" or anything like that, because even though they have changed, normal people change as well (note JK's comment on how children in stories that are not allowed to grow are annoying), it's mostly our perspective on the story and how we choose to involve ourselves while reading.
Sorry if that makes absolutely no sense... It's 1 am and I just got home from work... |
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