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< The Library ~ For all the Snape/Lily Shippers... |
| Wolf Moonshadow |
 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:58 pm |
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Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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Location: A state of delusion (Florida)
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As I was trying to figure out what those might be, I noticed that Lupin's speech in the movie about Lily is much more thorough than the book in painting her as someone "who could see the beauty in others, even when they could not see it themselves." And naturally I couldn't help thinking of Snape when he said that.
Verity[/quote]
While I expect that most of us first thought of Snape with that line, I was suprised to find my husband (who is not a big Snape fan) also thought the same thing.
At that time, who would have had the most self-loathing, Lupin or Snape? I think of all the Mauraders, Lupin would have been the only to really understand Snape. So it is not unbelievable he said that line in reference to Snape as well as himself. (yes I know, movie canon is not book canon, but it is interesting nonetheless.
~Wolf |
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| Pace |
| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:15 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Cologne (Germany)
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I know I’m risking making myself somewhat unpopular but I noticed that in all your theories the basic-sentiment is quite positive towards Snape. While I do understand this as I feel the same, I would still like to share the following thought of mine, even if it shows Snape in a less-than-favorable light.
What if Snape’s motive was not revenge for Lily but rather revenge on Lily?
Suppose: Horace Slughorn, who likes to gather the talented and socially-promising students around himself, decides on a whim that Miss Evans and Mister Snape, both highly skilled in Potions, are only held back by their current lab partners, achieving not nearly as much as he thinks they could (to his benefit, of course). So what does he do? He arranges for the two of them to work together in his lessons occasionally and encourages them to deepen their cooperation. Perhaps he already sees them as the new Flamel/Dumbledore in his mind, presenting the wizarding society with their ground-shaking theories on Potions and Alchemy and of course also their thanks to him, their mentor – come on, you know he’d like that.
Snape always strikes me as someone who is not satisfied with anything less than perfection. Maybe he is somewhat content to be finally paired with someone who can comply with his high standards (easily?) and so he comes to ‘overlook’ Lily’s flaw of being a Gryffindor and maybe also her lineage. In Snape’s opinion, they might be working well together. Even if he comes to like her, however, he cannot show it in public. He is a Slytherin, after all, and perhaps due to his upbringing (or rather: his resentment for his muggle father and everything connected to him) he will not let anyone know that he values a muggle-born witch from an opposing house, least of all that he might think of her as more than a friend.
What happens next? Feelings, especially those we try to suppress or ignore, grown stronger and eventually, he cracks, confessing to Lily that he likes her. Maybe he does love her at this point. Maybe he only thinks it is love. He is, however, rejected. Lily might not feel about him that way. Perhaps to her, Severus Snape is more a good friend or a brother. And to add insult to injury, she goes off on a couple of dates with Potter of all people. Of course, Snape feels betrayed. Maybe he imagines Lily telling James of his confession and the two of them making fun of him. Maybe James found out, by some twisted turn of fate, and gives Severus hell for it. “Keep your slimy hands off my girl, Snivellus!” I can very well imagine Snape, who, as we know, can hold grudges, beginning to resent Lily for her choice. He hates her for rejecting him, for making a fool out of him, for disappointing his trust and hopes in her, for hurting him. And still, he might not be able to keep himself from loving her and hate her even more for it.
He turns to the DE and he finds people that somehow connect to him. “Clever words on smooth tongue talking” (INXS, ‘Just keep walking’) – Voldemort is probably a skilled demagogue, knowing just how to best cause elation for his cause in others. His speeches are made to have people agree with him, to convince them and to lure them into trust and obedience (at first). He senses Snape’s resentment and his hate for the muggle world – his father, who might have taken the ‘Dursley-approach’ to magic, and the girl, whom he thought he loved and who chose his nemesis over him. He might be intrigued by the prospect of revenge: of making them suffer a change.
And it would serve Lily right, wouldn’t it? After all, what goes round comes around and let’s see how she deals with Potter and the punishment he deserves. “Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies“ is what the prophecy tells us about the parents of the ‘Chosen One’, the one to vanquish the Dark Lord. Maybe Snape had something to do with those three times that the Potter’s defied Voldemort, might have hoped for Voldemort to kill James and leave Lily behind.
But no, they both die. And they leave behind a testimony of their love: Harry. How revolting, how utterly disgusting: a child with Potter’s looks – down to that hair – and her, Lily’s eyes! Where it could have been his child, the incarnation of his love – emotionally and carnally – that would look up at him on its first Potions lesson; that would know instantly when asked what happened if you combined powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood; his child would have known were to find a bezoar and that there was no difference between monkshood and wolfsbane. But no, instead he is punished with having to endure the presence of that Potter-brat – just as arrogant as his father.
I admit, when it all comes down to it, my theory makes Snape seem quite petty: his reasons to go over to the ‘Dark Side’ are his injured pride, his insecurities and his thirst for revenge. This doesn’t explain his actions in HBP and maybe doesn’t even make sense (and to be honest, part of my ground idea went bye-bye while I typed this), but anyway this is my theory on how a Snape/Lily relationship might tie into the overall story.
And now… I’ll shut up. |
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| Marianne |
| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:02 pm |
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Joined: 15 Jul 2005
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| I don't agree and that's not only because I love Snape but also because of the fact that Dumbledore trusted Snape. There must have been very strong reasons and for me these ly in the probaability that Snape was guilty of the death of the only girl who had ever loved him and vice versa. |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:21 am |
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Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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Location: Midwest USA
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I was doing a little re-reading lately of the other books, and I ran across some things that connected with the question of what happened in Godric's Hollow that night. (And yes, this does relate to the topic I'm posting it under!)
When I was rereading PS/SS, I noticed that the Wizarding world was aware all day on November 1 that Voldemort had fallen. I also noticed that Harry was not brought to the Dursleys' until late on the night of the 1st.
I also noticed, when I was rereading PoA, that Hagrid says that he took baby Harry from the ruins of the house--with the purpose of taking him to the Dursleys'--on Dumbledore's orders. And that just as he was getting Harry out, Sirius turned up, argued for a while to keep Harry himself, and then gave the motorbike to Hagrid. From Sirius's report of events, we know that Sirius went to see Peter on the night of the 31st, found him gone, and came directly to the Potters to check on them.
Some thoughts about the timing of all this:
It seems unlikely that Hagrid would do anything other than follow Dumbledore's orders to the letter, so Hagrid probably would not have taken Harry anywhere else on the way to the Dursleys'. I'm not sure where Godric's Hollow is (somewhere that Bristol would be on a line between it and Surrey--so, in the north?) nor do I know how long it would take to get from there to the Dursleys' by flying motorbike. The timing seems a bit odd--Hagrid picks up Harry in the morning? takes all day conveying him to the Dursley's? Also, it would seem that Peter's place of residence must have been a fair distance from Godric's Hollow, if Sirius took until morning (or whenever Hagrid picked Harry up) to get there.
(Just a side thought--I wonder if Sirius doesn't like Apparating? Certainly traveling by flying motorbike is a lot slower.)
One thing I realized as I was considering all this--how does the Wizarding world know that Voldemort has fallen the very next morning? Particularly--and this is important--how does Dumbledore know what happened there that night? How does he know that Lily died to save Harry? We know that Dumbledore is not omniscient, in spite of doing a fairly good imitation at times. In light of the fact that Dumbledore does know, JKR's "no comment" answer to the question of whether anyone else was in Godric's Hollow that night becomes rather more interesting. It seems as if there must have been someone else there--someone who could and would report to Dumbledore about what happened. And someone--rather oddly--who did not take Harry out of the ruins that night.
Dumbledore had to have known that Lily had died to save Harry before he ever gave Hagrid the orders to bring Harry to the Dursleys'. It was on the basis of that knowledge that he decided to place Harry with the Dursleys'--so that he would be protected by her blood. He could not have made that decision without knowing what had transpired. So how did he know?
It seems apparent that whoever was there that night went almost directly to Dumbledore to tell him. Dumbledore clearly trusted the information, since he must have a) spread (or allowed to be spread) the news to the rest of the Wizarding world, and b) made the decision to place Harry with the Dursleys', and sent Hagrid to bring him there. Oddly, McGonagall spent all that day spying on the Dursleys, although why she would do so remains a mystery, since apparently she had not talked to Dumbledore since before Voldemort's fall (she certainly did not know the truth of the situation, although she had heard rumors, until Dumbledore confirmed the story to her). It also seems odd that Dumbledore would not have gone to Godric's Hollow himself. (What was he doing all that day?) But apparently he did not go, based on Hagrid's report. And it seems unlikely that Dumbledore would have left Harry there in the ruins, if he had gone there.
So who would have been there to see the events and have survived to be able to report them? To Dumbledore? And yet--and this really is the clincher--have left baby Harry in the ruins of the house?
The only person I can think of who could and would do that is Severus Snape. Which adds rather more support to the Snape-loved-Lily theory. If he was there that night, pleading with Voldemort for Lily's life, and then seeing her die anyway.... I can well imagine a young, grief-stricken Snape going to Dumbledore (for whom he was already spying, by that point), either not thinking or not caring about the child for whom Lily sacrificed herself. He would certainly have emphasized her sacrifice in his report, although I expect he would have been angry and upset about it.
Snape going to Dumbledore with his grief does, however, also suggest that the personal relationship between Snape and Dumbledore may well have been real and not a ruse on Snape's part. Why go to him otherwise? Why not simply pretend he had never been there at all? So this may mean that he was, in fact, Dumbledore's man. (Yay for more evidence of that!)
Thoughts?
Verity |
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| Lady Whitehart |
| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:52 am |
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From what we learned about Apparating in HBP, I can't imagine that too many wizards like to do it. Besides, a motorcycle fits in with Sirius's "bad boy" image.
Even as nasty a Snape can be, I can't see him leaving Lily's child in the wreckage of the house in Godric's Hollow, especially if he did indeed have a "thing" for her.
As for how Dumbledore knew -- I wonder if he extracted the memories from Harry. Would baby memories even be extactable? Yes, I'm aware extactable probably isn't a word.  |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:06 am |
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Lady Whitehart wrote: Even as nasty a Snape can be, I can't see him leaving Lily's child in the wreckage of the house in Godric's Hollow, especially if he did indeed have a "thing" for her.
Well, if this theory proves to be true, and he was there, consider this: in Snape's eyes, Lily would have chosen Harry over him. And Harry was James' son. I can't see there being any great affection for the boy there. No, I know that doesn't make Snape a very nice person. But then, we knew that (even if we didn't know it was quite this bad).
What I really suspect, though, is that Snape was overwhelmed by his own grief.
Lady Whitehart wrote: As for how Dumbledore knew -- I wonder if he extracted the memories from Harry. Would baby memories even be extactable? Yes, I'm aware extactable probably isn't a word.
I hadn't thought of that. But I don't think we've ever seen someone extract another person's memories. If that were possible, why not hold Slughorn down and suck the true memory out of his head. I think that you have to consciously extract your own memories.
The problem, though, even if that were possible, is that Dumbledore appears not to have actually seen Harry until Hagrid brings him to the Dursleys' on the motorbike. Hagrid very specifically describes to Dumbledore having taken Harry out of the ruins of the house and having used Sirius' borrowed motorbike to get to the Dursleys'. It seems very unlikely to me that Dumbledore saw Harry at any intervening point in there. If so, why would Hagrid be telling him about retrieving Harry? And why would Dumbledore not have brought Harry to the Dursleys' himself? And certainly Dumbledore would not have left Harry in the ruins of the house, had he seen him there!
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| Mimmy |
| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:27 am |
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Joined: 11 Sep 2005
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Location: Azkaban
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If so, why would Hagrid be telling him about retrieving Harry? And why would Dumbledore not have brought Harry to the Dursleys' himself? And certainly Dumbledore would not have left Harry in the ruins of the house, had he seen him there!
Verity[/quote]
so what you're saying is that if Dumbledore had been to Godric's Hollow to take Harry to the Dursley's and he had not seen him in the ruins...that there had to be someone else who got Harry out of the house before Dumbledore arrived? If so...who? Snape- reminds me of a pic on Illusions (Snape holding Baby Harry).
But then Dumbledore has often asked others to fetch/accompany Harry on his behalf (Lupin, Moody etc IN OoP...) for whatever reason.
How come the old man seems to know everything but then needs to be told anyway????
Dumbledore's thinking is even more confusing than my own...
Mimmy |
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| mouseII |
| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:56 pm |
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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Quote: so what you're saying is that if Dumbledore had been to Godric's Hollow to take Harry to the Dursley's and he had not seen him in the ruins...that there had to be someone else who got Harry out of the house before Dumbledore arrived?
I didn't comment on this thread before, but you know, Verity does make some awfully good points here. Where was Harry all day? How did Dumbledore know all the details of how Voldemort died if he hadn't been to Godric's Hollow himself?
I think this is excellent evidence that there was someone else there at Godric's Hollow, on the night the Potters died, and that this person was reporting to Dumbledore.
Voldemort giving Lily several chances to live struck me a bit odd when I re-read the story. If Snape really did have a thing for Lily, then maybe the reason Voldemort was willing to spare Lily - the "Mudblood" - was because one of his Death Eaters, i.e. Snape, had been trying to convince him to do exactly that. I can't think of any particularly good reasons for Voldemort allowing Lily to live otherwise - think about his "(k)ill the spare" comment regarding Cedric. Wouldn't Lily just be another "spare" in his eyes? |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:50 am |
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Location: Northern UK
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The time gap between the deaths of Harry's parents, and Hagrid showing up at the Dursley's with baby Harry is generally accorded to be one of the most intriguing canon mysteries.
This is the best analysis I've seen, an entire essay on the Lexicon:
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters2.html
It flags up all the mysteries (for instance, what happened to Voldemort's wand, sports fans?).
I personally found the gap God's gift when fitting in all my plotting in a story which dealt very explicitly with the Godric's Hollow murders (now sadly canon shafted by Snape's assertion that he was at Hogwarts - I had hoped he was at GH at some point in the proceedings).
Here are some of the big quesions:
Where did Sirius go after speaking with Hagrid and when?
What was Dumbledore doing? How did he find out, despatch Hagrid and how quick was this?
What happened to the house, and the bodies?
Who had Voldemort's wand? Peter Pettigrew had it by the end of GOF in the Graveyard scene. How did he get it?
Where was Harry between midnight or so on October 31 1981 and midnight on November 1 1981? He cannot have been flying on his godfather's loaned out motorbike all that time, I assume Hagrid "rested up" somewhere. Where was that? Who looked after Harry when Hagrid informed McGonagall about the murders?
Why was DD not at Hogwarts, and where was he? McGonagall has not seen him that day, when they meet at Privet Drive.
What was going on at Hogwarts with two senior staff members not present?
Lots more, too. |
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| Phoenix_Fire |
| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:49 am |
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Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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Location: Edmond, OK
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I just want to say that all of these theories are brilliant! Book Seven can't get here fast enough with the truth.
Personally, I firmly believe that Severus Snape is really good. I can see how the Snape/Lily angle would work, although I'm not quite sure whether I believe it or not. It all fits though.
And what did happen to Voldemort's wand? You know I never thought about it before. And I never realized that Harry hadn't been brought to the Dursley's until a whole day after the incident in Godric's Hollow. And why didn't Dumbledore bring him himself? I think you're all right. Someone else had to be there in Godric's Hollow!
Fascinating stuff! And it all brings up an abundance of plot-bunnies for fics! |
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| maryh |
| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:42 pm |
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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I think it is likely that there was a friendship between Snape and Lily, but I see no reason to make it a romance.
My personal feeling is that Lily will turn out to be important in her own right, like Hermione is, and not just because she was someone's love interest.
I have a lot of trouble with the "Voldemort was going to spare Lily for Snape (or anyone else)" angle. To hear Slughorn tell it, Lily was a Potions genius even greater than Snape, and everyone seems to agree that LV wanted Snape for his smarts. Why wouldn't he want Lily for the same reason? |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:18 am |
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maryh wrote: I have a lot of trouble with the "Voldemort was going to spare Lily for Snape (or anyone else)" angle. To hear Slughorn tell it, Lily was a Potions genius even greater than Snape, and everyone seems to agree that LV wanted Snape for his smarts. Why wouldn't he want Lily for the same reason?
Because there's no way she would ever serve him? Especially after he'd murdered her husband and son! And he *didn't* tell her, "Join me, and I'll spare your life." (Which is pretty much what he said to Harry in PS/SS!) He had some other reason for not killing her, and I doubt that it was chivalry. It seems more likely that it was a reward to either Snape or (as I've heard convincinly argued) Pettigrew. I still think it was Snape. Here's an off-the-wall idea: *Voldie* was in love with Lily. ;~)
Regardless of who it was, I think Amortentia potion has *got* to come in there somewhere. Every single other potion that Slughorn showed them that day has been important at some point in the series. So either it's a gun on the mantle or a really annoying red herring.
I just cannot get Slughorn's comment about having seen the power of obessive love out of my mind. Don't forget that Slughorn was Snape's Head of House.
Verity |
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| maryh |
| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:40 am |
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Verity Brown wrote: Because there's no way she would ever serve him? Especially after he'd murdered her husband and son! And he *didn't* tell her, "Join me, and I'll spare your life." (Which is pretty much what he said to Harry in PS/SS!)
We don't know what LV told or offered Lily. It could very well have been something on the order of "Join me and I'll spare your son." Not that he would have actually kept his word on that, but if Lily didn't already have a plan to use her death to protect her son, she would have had to chance it. And of course he would have to make the offer before he killed Harry.
I tend to think that Lily and Snape worked out several protective measures together, one of which was how to use her death to protect her husband and/or son if it came to that.
But your theory works as well. I just prefer to see Lily and Snape as a Gryffindor/Slytherin partnership rather than a romance.
I do agree that Amortentia is going to come in at some point, although I don't have any idea where. |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:29 am |
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maryh wrote: We don't know what LV told or offered Lily. It could very well have been something on the order of "Join me and I'll spare your son."
Didn't we "hear" what happened, through Harry's dementor-induced flashbacks?
'"Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!"
'"Stand aside, you silly girl . . . stand aside, now. . . ."
'"Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --"'
. . . .
'"Not Harry! Please . . . have mercy . . . have mercy. . . ."' (Ch. 9, PoA)
and also
'"Not Harry! Not Harry! Please -- I'll do anything --"
'"Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!"' (Ch. 12, PoA)
Since Harry's first flashback was just the sound of his mother screaming, and the flashback that follows these two I've just quoted is of his father telling his mother to flee, I'm guessing that each time Harry is exposed to the dementors, his memory goes back a little further. So these two examples should probably be read in reverse order.
It would appear that Voldie didn't have to try to convince Lily: she said she would do anything if only he didn't kill Harry. But I'm especially intrigued by her plea: "take me, kill me instead." Admittedly, her words may be attributable to maternal hysteria in the face of this threat to her child, but it also seems possible, if not necessarily likely, that she understood that Voldemort intended to kill Harry for some purpose--a purpose for which she proposed to substitute herself. Creating a Horcrux, perhaps? Of course, Lily may or may not have know about that (could someone, like Snape, have told her?). But it's an interesting thought.
The more I think about it, the more sure I feel that they are going to find *something* in the ruins of Godric's Hollow that Voldemort had intended to turn into a Horcrux using Harry's death. Dumbledore's comment about Voldie using only very important deaths for Horcruxes should not be forgotten. So how about I spin a little prediction here, likely no more reliable than Trelawney's crystal ball:
Harry and company find an object in Godric's Hollow that is a good candidate for a Horcrux. In fact, they think it *is* a Horcrux for most of the book. They only learn their mistake near the end. At which point they figure out that *Harry* is a Horcrux. How they keep Harry from dying as a result of that information, I don't know. I *would* like to believe that Harry lives. Perhaps the clue lies in what we saw in OotP: Voldie *can't* possess Harry for any length of time, because Harry is capable of feeling great love. And we know that Harry's scar hurts when he is experiencing a connection of some kind with Voldie, so perhaps his body naturally tries to fight off this Horcrux-ish possession whenever that bit of Voldie's soul is wakened from dormancy. Perhaps there is a way for Harry to drive out the portion of Voldie's soul that resides in him (or in his scar)--through love--without dying in the process?
Gah, that sounds so plausible it almost gives me chills. Is that how JKR's mind works? Am I too far off? Have I just spoiled Book 7, if it turns out this little mental rambling is correct?
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| maryh |
| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:58 pm |
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