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JackieJLH

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:41 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

Ok, now let me say first that I have never been a Snape/Lily shipper, just because I'm entirely too caught up in the HG/SS world. But a friend and I were discussing HBP earlier today, and she made some valid points, so I thought I would post them here and let everyone make of them what they will.

Let me start by listing all known information, and then I'll get on to my theory...

Fact One (along with a decent amount of speculation):In HBP, JKR makes a point of mentioning, to the point of redundancy, that Lily Evans was highly adept at Potions. And it stands to reason that Snape was as well, taking into account his Potions textbook which he had apparently been making notes in since before his fifth year. So it stands to reason that, if Gryffindor and Slytherin shared Potions classes then, they would have been in the same class, and would almost certainly have taken N.E.W.T. potions together, if both enrolled in the class - and from Slughorn's raving over Lily, I can't imagine that she dropped the course after 5th year, nor that Snape would have quit a subject he so obviously excels at.

Fact Two: Snape's Worst Memory. It has been debated since the release of OotP whether his worst memory was actually being tormented by the Marauders. Harry obviously subscribes to this theory, but we all know that Harry's thoughts are usually skewed by his lack of information or his own prejudices. Many believe, however, that Snape's worst memory was, in fact, calling Lily a Mudblood. For the sake of this argument, I'm going to side with this opinion.

Fact Three: Dumbledore told Harry that Snape's reason for defecting from the Dark Side was the knowledge that he had caused the death of Harry's parents. Harry, of course, automatically assumes that Dumbledore is either lying or dense - Snape hated James with a passion, and it is more likely that he was quite glad to see the end of him. However, Dumbledore, while the master of omitting crucial information, almost never lies. He is more apt to say "I can't (or won't) tell you" than to lie. So let's assume that this reason, while poorly explained to Harry, is true.

Okay, here is the theory as it was told to me...

Snape and Lily are in classes together. At this point, Lily doesn't hang out with the Marauders. Canon supports this - Lily seems to loathe James as of their fifth year, and I believe at some point Lupin says that her attitude towards them, or at least towards James, didn't change until later. Snape, meanwhile, is a greasy, quiet, ugly, creepy little kid. His life is probably hell - the Slytherins would give him a hard time because he's a Half-Blood (Quarter-Blood? Hermione says his mother was Half-Blood, and his father is a Muggle). Meanwhile, the rest of the school dislikes him on principle BECAUSE he's a Slytherin. Catch 22...life at eleven just isn't fair.

Lily's caring, understanding nature is drilled into our heads from day one - everything we are told of her is that she was, all in all, a good person. If anyone would take pity on this pathetic, munchkin sized Snape, she would. (And I mean that in the nicest way possible - I love Snape. But he would have been pretty sad at eleven.)

So perhaps they become friends, of sorts, during Potions class. They might not be very close, or even talk outside of the dungeons, but Snape would probably still see her as a friend because he doesn't have any others.

Meanwhile, Snape has this book of his mother's. He writes in it, making notes about potions and spells. He tests them out on other students (I assume - otherwise, how would James have learned the Levicorpus (sp?) spell?) which can't do anything to help his popularity issues. He's not only creepy, but now he's slightly dangerous. Especially if he tested out that Sectumsempra spell on anyone...though I can't imagine him escaping expulsion for that one.

Hermione had said at one point that SOME of the writing in the book looked like a girl's writing. Now the cramped, tiny writing that Harry describes doesn't strike me as a girl's style. It's messy - Harry often had to decipher it. Also not the USUAL stereotypical girly handwriting. (Not that all girls' writing is pretty, but just that messy writing is often not overly gender-specific - writing that is automatically assumed to be a girls is usually smooth, legible, and neat). So perhaps there is more than one author of the mysterious notes. Could it have been Lily? It's possible...I'll admit, not overly likely - more likely that it was Eileen Prince's, and Snape just added on to his mum's notes, but still, possibly Lily's. Especially after Slughorn keeps telling us that Lily excelled at potions, and how the things Harry does in his class (all of which come from the textbook) are so like the things his mother used to do.

Okay, so skip ahead to the Marauder's fifth year. Snape is even more hated than ever - he's trying out his spells on his classmates, he's gotten uglier with age, and he's a social outcast. But by this time, he's probably made a few Slytherin friends. He's smart - Slytherins are all about taking opportunities presented to them, I can't imagine ALL of the Slytherins overlooking someone who could help them with homework (or do their homework), etc. And Voldemort is growing stronger. There are undoubtedly Dark Arts supporters at Hogwarts, many of them in the Slytherin house. So maybe Snape has started listening to their theories, if not subscribing to them in some ways.

So they sit their O.W.L.s, and wander outside. James and Sirius begin taunting Snape. Lily runs to his rescue.

Now, first off, Snape is embarrassed. He just unwillingly flashed half the school. His worst enemies are using his own spells against him. He's angry, he's hurt. And he more than likely has Voldemort-sympathetic thoughts bouncing around in his head after hearing them from his classmates nonstop during the whole rise of the Dark Lord. Lily - a muggleborn, a girl, a Gryffindor - comes to his rescue. In a (childish) fit of anger, he calls her a Mudblood. She gets all mad, walks off. Snape has just alienated the person who was probably his only non-Slytherin friend.

Lupin tells us that not long after, Lily and James start dating. They leave school, marry not too shortly afterwards, etc. Meanwhile, Snape has completely turned to the Dark side. He ends up at the Hog's Head, either purposefully spying or there just by coincidence, and overhears part of the prophecy. He tells Voldemort, they all wait for the news of impending pregnancies, etc.

A year or so later, Voldemort attacks Harry's family. He kills James without giving it a second thought, as per usual. But he doesn't automatically kill Lily. No, in fact he gives her the option of getting out of the way. Why? Some people speculate that he knew the danger of killing a mother who was protecting her child, but Voldemort himself admits that he completely overlooked that possibility in GoF. I am wondering if perhaps Snape wasn't as adept an Occlumens at that point, and Voldemort knew that Snape had a soft spot (or maybe an attraction) to Lily, and knew that in killing her, he may be alienating one of the most promising up-and-coming Death Eaters he has. After all, Snape is smart, ruthless, and very skilled in just about everything he does. Perhaps Snape has even gone as far as to beg Voldemort to spare Lily, though this is unlikely.

In the end, Lily dies and Voldemort is thrown from his body, off to play in Albania for the next 13? years or so...Meanwhile, Snape is heartbroken. His information has inadvertantly led to the death of the only childhood friend he had - and the woman he may have been at least a little bit in love with. Outraged, hating himself, and hurting, he goes to Dumbledore. He has been playing the spy for Voldemort around Dumbledore for a little bit anyway, so Dumbledore probably had a front row seat to all of the hurt, anger, and self-revulsion Snape was feeling. Angry, feeling guilty, and wanting revenge against Voldemort, Snape switches sides.

Over the years, he grows to trust Dumbledore even more. Dumbledore keeps him out of Azkaban, gives him a home and a job. Now not only is he siding with the Order in general, but he owes Dumbledore in a big way. Then Harry shows up. Every time Snape looks at him, he sees two things - James Potter, his worst enemy and the man who married Snape's first love - and Lily's eyes, staring at him with pure hatred and revulsion. Perhaps this is why his eyes are so important - they have been a reminder to Snape why he hates Voldemort so much, but at the same time, has fueled Snape's hatred for Harry.

Perhaps this is also why he gives Harry such a hard time in Potions - he is expecting Harry to be like his mother, and in reality he is far from it. It would be a pretty big disappointment for Snape. Plus, Harry is a reminder of two things - One, that Lily found love in ANOTHER MAN'S arms, not his. And second, Lily died FOR Harry - there's probably a decent amount of resentment for this reason alone. Harry's very existance effectively brought upon Lily's death, in Snape's eyes.

So this is our theory, flawed as it is...let me know what you think. And again, I admit, much of this is pure speculation, but I suppose that's what this board is for, right?

Jackie

Edited to reflect the part I'd inadvertantly messed up about when Snape first started spying for Dumbledore.

Last edited by JackieJLH on Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:03 am; edited 2 times in total
_________________
~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

wytchkat

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:54 am

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 2

This is not as skewed as you think-infact, I see it as a really good one.And maybe that is why also Snape is just very grudgingly willing to keep harry alive-to kinda pay a 'debt' back to lily.

_________________
"No sword shall touch you,lest it be mine."

Verity Brown

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:08 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

JackieJLH wrote:

Lily's caring, understanding nature is drilled into our heads from day one - everything we are told of her is that she was, all in all, a good person.

Just so you know, we've already been discussing this topic on the thread about Lily's eyes.

The extra features on the PoA DVD include an interview in which JKR says that the screenwriter put in things that aren't in the book and that she didn't tell him to put in, but that are foreshadowing for the later books. As I was trying to figure out what those might be, I noticed that Lupin's speech in the movie about Lily is much more thorough than the book in painting her as someone "who could see the beauty in others, even when they could not see it themselves." And naturally I couldn't help thinking of Snape when he said that.

Quote:

In the end, Lily dies and Voldemort is thrown from his body, off to play in Albania for the next 13? years or so...Meanwhile, Snape is heartbroken. His information has inadvertantly led to the death of the only childhood friend he had - and the woman he may have been at least a little bit in love with. Outraged, hating himself, and hurting, he goes to Dumbledore.

The problem here is that we know that Snape came to Dumbledore before Voldemort fell.

Quote:

Then Harry shows up. Every time Snape looks at him, he sees two things - James Potter, his worst enemy and the man who married Snape's first love - and Lily's eyes, staring at him with pure hatred and revulsion. Perhaps this is why his eyes are so important - they have been a reminder to Snape why he hates Voldemort so much, but at the same time, has fueled Snape's hatred for Harry.

Perhaps this is also why he gives Harry such a hard time in Potions - he is expecting Harry to be like his mother, and in reality he is far from it. It would be a pretty big disappointment for Snape. Plus, Harry is a reminder of two things - One, that Lily found love in ANOTHER MAN'S arms, not his. And second, Lily died FOR Harry - there's probably a decent amount of resentment for this reason alone. Harry's very existance effectively brought upon Lily's death, in Snape's eyes.

These are some points that I hadn't thought of before. In fact, one of my main problems with the Snape-loved-Lily theory was that Snape never seemed to be reacting to Harry's eyes. But the idea that he's upset by seeing Lily's eyes looking at him with hatred out of James's face seems very plausible. Thanks for the input on this!

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

JackieJLH

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:43 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

JackieJLH wrote:

Quote:

Verity wrote:

Quote:

The problem here is that we know that Snape came to Dumbledore before Voldemort fell.

Oops...got that part wrong. Original theory accounted for that - the idea was that he was there on Voldemort's orders originally, but then changed his tune after Lily's death. And, being in close quarters with Dumbledore already, Albus may have had a hand in Severus turning on Voldemort completely. After all, he would have seen the pain and heartache first hand.

Sorry I messed that one up...that's what I get for trying to type this up while very, very tired. Smile

_________________
~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

Verity Brown

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:27 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

JackieJLH wrote:

It seems odd...to be teaching there for 14 years, in OotP, Snape would have had to start teaching the month before Harry's parents died. And if Dumbledore caught him spying on the prophecy the spring before (was it spring? I can't remember and can't check at the moment), why would Dumbledore hire him? There are things we just don't know about that whole situation yet.

I found it interesting in that the second installment of the Mugglenet/LeakyCauldron interview with JKR, she says that we will find out more about Dumbledore. I hope that part of that will relate to this situation.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Sanguine

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:57 pm

Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 5

JackieJLH wrote:

A year or so later, Voldemort attacks Harry's family. He kills James without giving it a second thought, as per usual. But he doesn't automatically kill Lily. No, in fact he gives her the option of getting out of the way. Why? Some people speculate that he knew the danger of killing a mother who was protecting her child, but Voldemort himself admits that he completely overlooked that possibility in GoF. I am wondering if perhaps Snape wasn't as adept an Occlumens at that point, and Voldemort knew that Snape had a soft spot (or maybe an attraction) to Lily, and knew that in killing her, he may be alienating one of the most promising up-and-coming Death Eaters he has.

would Voldemort be that considerate? surely, if he wanted a DE at Hogwarts, he could find someone else to fill the post? Snape's convenient but I doubt he's indespensible. Dumbledore himself said Voldemort has no friends or loyalties of any kind, meaning he does little to forge personal relationships, so it is highly likely that he wouldn't consider using Lily in that way, unless he believed she could be of real benefit to Snape and/or a bargaining tool, in which case he could have tried harder not to hurt her... a different spell, maybe?

Edit: forgot to say, excellent stuff, though. you've a good case going there and I think it raises some really interesting questions...

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:57 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Regarding the Death Eater at Hogwarts, an idea I had:

Snape is a Potions Master. Whether this means he took an apprenticeship or not remains to be seen, but it was obvious he knew his stuff (and I wonder if Dumbledore knew about the Half-Blood Prince stuff).

Also, at that point it's possible that most of the other qualified Death Eaters are too well known as Death Eaters to work at Hogwarts.

I personally think Snape had something for Lily. I don't know whether it was returned, but I think there may have been something there. And so possibly Voldemort held off on killing Lily because he saw that Snape cared about her and he didn't want to risk losing a loyal Death Eater.

Although at that point we know he had gone to Dumbledore, so maybe when he found out Peter was the Secret-Keeper and not Sirius Black, that was what turned him...

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Verity Brown

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:48 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Two Methyloctane wrote:

Snape is a Potions Master.

I hate to burst the bubble on this, but Snape is not (as far as we've been told) a Potions Master. He is (or was) the Potions master at Hogwarts. That means, in the old-fashioned parlance of schooling, that he is the teacher of that subject. It may help to think of the word "schoolmaster." That's the kind of master that Snape is.

I like the idea of apprenticeships, even though there's been nothing in canon to support them, simply because the education one receives at Hogwarts seems to be inadequate to the demands of anything but a very entry-level position. We know that Aurors receive further training. But, alas, apprenticeships are still only a fanon concept.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:54 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

No, I agree with you.

I worded it inappropriately.

What I meant by that is that Snape is incredibly talented at Potions, and his skills go beyond what is taught at Hogwarts, whether by some sort of private tutelage or individual experiementation. He's an expert at any rate, and would be more than qualified for a teaching position, possibly putting him in that position more easily than other Death Eaters.

I wish we knew more about magical education past Hogwarts, because it really does seem inadequate, I agree.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Verity Brown

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:07 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Incidentally, my friend Cecelle has a really funny story about the Potions Master/Potions master thing up on FictionAlley, called "On Potions Mastery." It's very short, and pokes great fun at a number of fanon things.

http://www.riddikulus.org/authors/cecelle/OPM.html

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

JackieJLH

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:59 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

Perhaps (and this is, once again, pure speculation...I really should make a fic out of this...lol)

Anyway, perhaps Snape was on Voldemort's side, pure Death Eater, etc. Then he finds out that Lily Potter - HIS Lily - have birth to a child in the end of July. Little Harry Potter is now a marked man...er, baby. And subsequently, so are his parents.

Snape spazzes out a little, and goes to the one person he thinks can save Lily from almost certain death at the hands of Voldemort - Dumbledore - fully aware that it may cost him his freedom, or his life.

Dumbledore, ever the opportunist, sees a chance for redemption in Snape, and a much better use for an able-bodied wizard than an oversized Dementor snack. He sends Snape back to Voldemort, and the Order's spy is born.

Snape chats it up with LV, and somehow convinces him to allow him to teach at Hogwarts and spy on Dumbledore for him. Perhaps Hogwarts is a professor short (after all, the DADA has supposedly been left teacherless at the end of every year since Tom Riddle applied, with the possible exception of Quirrel). Or maybe he tells Voldemort that Dumbledore trusted him while he was in school. Whatever the case, he ends up teaching, though Dumbledore thinks it prudent to keep him away from DADA. Probably smart - after all, at the moment Snape would only have given him one useful piece of information, and he DOES still report to Voldemort frequently.

Dumbledore, on Snape's advice, secrets the Potter's away. But there's a kink in the plan - Peter is made Secret Keeper. He scurries off to Voldemort with the information, and Voldemort heads for Godric's Hollow.

This scenario would accomadate for Snape being at Hogwarts before the fall of Voldemort, and his reasoning for why he's there. The rest is already speculated above, but basically Voldemort is aware of Snape's soft spot for Lily (he's probably not as adept an Occlumens in his early twenties as he is by the second rise of Voldemort) and knows that losing Snape can do nothing to help him. Snape is in an excellent position to benefit the Death Eaters, he's smart, he's not well known as a DE, he's the perfect spy. Why chance losing that over some woman that doesn't really matter either way? So Voldemort offers Lily the chance to live - if for no other reason, Snape will know that he 'tried' to spare her life and continue to be the loyal servant he has always been - she defies him, he kills her, takes aim at Harry, and sends his own soul flying out of his body.

Snape is angry, wants revenge, etc. So he sticks with Dumbledore, basically siding with anyone who is against Voldemort. And the rest is history.

Just a theory, once again, with just enough canon evidence for it to stand on two shaky little feet.

_________________
~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

Verity Brown

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:06 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

That's quite a nice theory, which accounts for most of what we know and have reason to guess. Good thinking!

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:26 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Speaking of Snape/Lily... anyone read the third part of the Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron interview with JK? Has some very interesting stuff, but what stood out for a Snaper like me:

ES: Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily?

JKR: No. [Pause.] She was like Ginny, she was a popular girl.

MA: Snape?

JKR: That is a theory that's been put to me repeatedly.

She's neither denying it or confirming it... it's not "he's a deeply horrible person" or anything. It seems like she's skirting the issue... And:

MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.

This may just mean his mother loved him, but it opens it up for ideas... we know from this that he at least knows what it is like to be loved, whether that love is maternal or romantic remains to be speculated upon, lol!

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Verity Brown

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:40 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Speaking of interviews, there was a rather interesting bit of info in the children's press conference that JKR gave:

Quote:

David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?

JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.

Is that true?

JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4690000/newsid_4690800/4690885.stm

Now, about that conversation that she's so hesitant to say anything more about, here's the relevant passage in OotP. This is just after Petunia reveals that she knows that the dementors "guard the wizard prison, Azkaban":

Quote:

"I heard -- that awful boy -- telling her about them -- years ago," she said jerkily.

"If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" said Harry loudly, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed horribly flustered. (chapter 2)

A friend suggested to me a couple of days ago that "that awful boy" might not mean James at all. And JKR's reticence about saying more on the subject (and even the way she phrased her answer) certainly seems to suggest that it wasn't James. Could it be Snape that Petunia overheard talking to Lily? (He certainly would fit the description--"that awful boy"--a lot better than James does.)

The evidence, it is a-mounting....

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

JackieJLH

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:53 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

Ooh...that's interesting. Tee hee...the plot bunny for a Snape fic is attacking with a vengence. Lol.

_________________
~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

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