Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - Characterizations in HBP

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Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:16 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

There's been a lot of talk over on WIKTT Misc this weekend about how the characters are portrayed in this book. Many people are saying some characters are OOC (although how they are OOC in canon is a discussion for another day). I have a few points to make on this, and I think the forums make a better outlet for discussion of this magnitude.

Claim 1: Harry is calm, cool, and collected, speaks eloquently, etc.
Response: He was being "possessed" by Voldemort in OotP, by receiving his feelings and his thoughts (he didn't like Dumbledore much in OotP). Combine this with a 15 year old male, and you're bound to get some tempers flaring. This year, his feelings are his own, and he's more mature, I'm sure he's learned how to use words a little better.

Claim 2: The relationship with Ginny came out of nowhere.
Response: Because most teenage relationships start after pining for each other for months or years? I know I had at least 3 teenage relationships that just came out of nowhere after knowing the guy for *maybe* a month. I didn't see it as unusual at all.

Claim 3: Hermione was OOC.
Response: From Harry's view, she may have been a bit different. We don't see as much of her this year, and that we do see is from Harry's perspective. And most of the time she was angry at him for cheating in Potions. She researched a lot, freaked out over her OWL's, yelled at Ron for being an immature prat. I didn't see anything OOC. I saw a character who is a 17 year old girl.

Claim 4: Ron + Hermione = Ewwwww...
Response: Yeah, I agree. BUT... a guy and a girl, who've been friends their entire teenage life are bound to "like" each other at one point. It's a part of growing up. Just because they might like each other now doesn't mean they'll spend eternity together.

These are a few of the bigger ones I noticed. Anyone care to comment?

Note: Please play nice. I want this to be a discussion on the characters development through the series, not a shipping-war. Very Happy

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

aphrodeia

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:32 am

Moderator Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 46

As some posters on WIKTT have so succinctly pointed out, Hermione has always played fast and loose with some of the rules at Hogwarts. Her attitude and actions in HBP (ZOMG NOT QUIDDITCH TRYOUTS!!!11) aren't all that different. Setting Snape on fire in the first book, lying about the troll, stealing supplies and brewing the Polyjuice potion, baiting Umbridge and leading her to the centaurs and possible death, sneaking out... Hermione's no angel. She breaks the rules if she thinks there's a good reason. She always has.

Very 'teenaged' of her, I think. Very Happy

Whimsy

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:33 am

Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 6

Just take into account this is based on a single read.

I don't think it was so much ooc but I really disliked Hermione in this book, she appeared immature - almost a caricature of herself. She really needs to grow up.

Interesting, to me the most grown up person around was Ginny - she really had her head screwed on in this book and reminded me a lot of Ginny often written in fanfic (and I never thought JKR would do that).

Harry was interesting, far more together than last book but wasn't it weird how he kept having these flashes of "knowing" something was right - even when he hadn't taken the potion. What was that about?

To me the ooc person was Dumbledore - a very different D to the one in the previous books. He seemed to be saying more to Harry than ever before but I can only guess that was because he knew he would die. Even aside from that, he really did seem odd to me, doing things like forcing Harry to get that memory.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:45 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Oh yeah, Hermione was completely immature in this one, and is still a bit hypocritical. She's never been terribly mature, she just understands things better.

But then again, I can sort of understand her behaviour in this one: she's 17, stressed out, the guy she likes is making out with another chick in front of her, and her best friend is beating her at her only talent (school) by using innovations Hermione can't make up herself.

A lot of fanfic has Hermione as this incredibly mature, innovative person who is always logical... but she's not in canon, and so I think the cause of the opinions that she is OOC is just that people have this preconceived fanfic notion of who she is supposed to be.

As for the Ginny thing: she's always seemed a little more mature. I think most fanfic authors got Ginny right, rather than JK responding to fanfic!Ginny.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

blah_blah_blah

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:54 am

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 20

Whimsy wrote:

I like her more in this book because she seemed more "real." She was jealous when Harry was doing so well in potions. And she should have been!

1) Harry shouldn't have been in there in the first place. If Slug didn't have his thing about being surrounded by people who can bring good things to him then Harry probably would not have been allowed in the class.

2) Harry was cheating by using Snape's book. I'm sure that burned Hermione's ass because she works hard. After all, it is hard work being a know-it-all!!!

3) And she knew Harry was being foolish about the book by using the spells in it.

4) The jealousy over Won-Won/Lav-Lav! Oh! That made me cringe because it was so real...I am embarrassed to say that it totally brought me back to my teenage years. shivers.

Whimsy wrote:

Interesting, to me the most grown up person around was Ginny - she really had her head screwed on in this book and reminded me a lot of Ginny often written in fanfic (and I never thought JKR would do that).

Harry was interesting, far more together than last book but wasn't it weird how he kept having these flashes of "knowing" something was right - even when he hadn't taken the potion. What was that about?

To me the ooc person was Dumbledore - a very different D to the one in the previous books. He seemed to be saying more to Harry than ever before but I can only guess that was because he knew he would die. Even aside from that, he really did seem odd to me, doing things like forcing Harry to get that memory.

I like how JKR did Ginny too. And I think Harry was (even though he was a bit reckless at times) starting to grow up and pay more attention to what was happening around him. I wonder if this was a result of Sirius's death. That had to force him to grow up faster.

Dumbledore was different but didn't he promise Harry at teh end of OoP that he would start being more open? And with the additional murders that happened during the summer I guess Dumbledore just felt he had to be more forthcomming with Harry.

What surprised me the most was the thing with Tonks and Remus. Not exactly their relationship but just the strange way they were portrayed in this book. We hardly saw them and when we did it was just odd.

Whimsy

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:04 am

Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 6

blah_blah_blah wrote:

2) Harry was cheating by using Snape's book. I'm sure that burned Hermione's ass because she works hard. After all, it is hard work being a know-it-all!!!

3) And she knew Harry was being foolish about the book by using the spells in it.

4) The jealousy over Won-Won/Lav-Lav! Oh! That made me cringe because it was so real...I am embarrassed to say that it totally brought me back to my teenage years. shivers.

Teenagedom was a very, very long time ago for me, but I'm surrounded by girls that age and I've never struck one as bad as Hermione. She annoyed me right from the first time we saw her till the end (but then I'm not a Hermione, at all). I don't think she was ooc, but could be more mature, I thought JKR would have made her more grown up by now, maybe the next book. I live in hope.

blah_blah_blah wrote:

Dumbledore was different but didn't he promise Harry at teh end of OoP that he would start being more open? And with the additional murders that happened during the summer I guess Dumbledore just felt he had to be more forthcomming with Harry.

What surprised me the most was the thing with Tonks and Remus. Not exactly their relationship but just the strange way they were portrayed in this book. We hardly saw them and when we did it was just odd.

I still thought he was very open, perhaps because of the impending death.

LOL, who wasn't a bit odd in this book! Now I've been reading on a board about lovepotion!Ginny - but I don't think she did that to Harry, it didn't seem like it.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:27 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

I think there could be an alternate take on Hermione.

Kids who seem very mature at a young age have a tendency to fail under the pressure and expectations, and as a result act out. I can see Hermione doing something similar: people expect her to be a genius, know everything, and have a solution for every little problem. I can expect her cracking under the pressure and rebelling.

And with Harry doing better in Potions than her, I can see her getting a little defensive and tetchy about it...

But yes, definately more immature than I expected...

As for Dumbledore, I sort of think he realized his "keep it secret, keep it safe" policy failed, so he's divulging a lot more information. That, or he knows the end is near...

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

liquidscissors

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:36 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Lord forbid Hermione act like a normal teenage girl instead of someone fifteen going on forty. Deary, deary me.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:47 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Haha, indeed. Fictional teenage girls get PMS, too.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

anita blake

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:26 am

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 11

I don't think Hermoine was too immature...how about Ron and Lavander with their PDA? That seems more immature to me. I think Hermoine is a normal, intelligent, hormonal, and jealous teenager. If you were 17, wouldn't you wig when you realised you had feelings for someone and then that someone was snogging another person, practially in-your-face most of the time?

Plus, falling in love with one of your friends is freakin' scary.

liquidscissors

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:14 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Ron was an irrational, jealous, childish, vile prig throughout the majority of this book, yet I've heard not a peep from anyone labelling him as such. Like it or not, Hermione acted exactly like any average teenage girl with a crush - welcome or not - on someone. Just because fanon has shaped her as some infalliable matron in the body of a young woman...

If you're going to dish it out, dish it out evenly.

Whimsy

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:55 am

Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 6

liquidscissors wrote:

If this was directed at me (and I assume it was) Ron has been consistently written as this from book 1; Hermione seemed to be going through a maturation process which came to a grinding halt, then seemed to roll backward. I don't think I ever implied she was 15 going on 40, simply that I found her annoying in the extreme in this book. My opinion. I think I can understand the difference between the characters in the book and fanon, I'm not confused on that point.

Lillithowl

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:04 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 6

I actually DIDN'T like Ginny as much in this book. Of course since viewed from Harry's perspective but she's totally perfect Ginny-Sue and often times a rather bitchy girl. And sorry but 15/16 is a bit young to have your full mocking bitch attitude on. I liked that she was strong because the HP book needs more strong females but I didn't find her overwhelmingly likeable.

Also in regards to Hermione I don't think she has done any backsliding in regard to her behaviour (she giggles, cries etc. in previous books) but that Harry's just noticing some of this a bit more. Sadly most of us made fools of ourselves over crushes in our teen years at leas sometimes, she is no different. I thought all of JKR's writing about the teen romance and accompanying drama was dead on.

azazello

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:19 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

I love the assumption that Hermione is out of character unless she is being raped by Snape, turning into a rabid pro-lifer, and keeping the sprog,

or

Having some random Slytherin trying to get into her pants for kink.

or

Being the genius who solves the whole thing.

or

The cleverest witch of her age (which incidentally Lupin meant she was bloody smart for 13, not the greatest witch since Morgan le Fay)

Welcome to canon. The hero is called Harry Potter. Hermione's a lovely young girl who is bright, works hard, and generally provides the logic end of the game. She is sometimes voice of author, too.

She did not change - I saw a post somewhere that said, "I do not like the new Hermione". She grew up logically, and yes, she's good with books, not smart in matters of the heart, like most of us. Teenage love does not come with an instruction manual.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:30 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Agreed. I thing a lot of people have run away with the fanfic Hermione as being canon-Hermione. Fanfic exaggerates her intelligence, her logic, her collectedness, and is surprised when she acts like a normal teenager.

I have a 17 year old sister, was 17 myself three years ago, and both my sister and I were so bloody annoying. I think Hermione's behaviour is completely natural, just annoying.

And I think regarding her maturity, since the first book we've kind of expected her to be the voice of reason and logic and always takes a "I know better than you" attitude. I think people mistake that as maturity, but I've never seen her act terribly mature in the books.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

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