Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - "You have your mother's eyes, Harry."

Author

Message

< The Library ~ "You have your mother's eyes, Harry."

Osiodhachain

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:51 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

We have known for a long time that Harry has his mother's eyes and that this would be important at some point. My question is this: has that card already been played in HBP? Recall when Harry was trying to extract Slughorn's true memory and Slughorn didn't look away from Harry's eyes. The new Potions professor obviously had a soft spot for Harry's muggle mother, having mentioned his fondness for Lily and admiration for her skills several times throughout the story. It was Harry's eyes (as well as the Felix potion and a good deal of alcohol) that ultimately swayed Slughorn. So, was this the big moment or will Harry's green eyes play an even larger part?

Sorry that I don't have quotes and page numbers to substantiate all of this, but I'm sure other people have considered this subject thoroughly on other posts, so I'll leave that to the pros.

PenAgainstSword

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:09 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 10

Good point. I did seriously think about this, but I then thought that it is mentioned so much (to the point of redundancy) that it MUST be something more important.

It could be that, you're right, or people just like the fact that Harry could be his father's reanimated corpse, except for the eyes.

_________________
"The 'ships are a-sinking!"

Pass me a bucket.

aphrodeia

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:36 am

Moderator Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 46

When asked if Harry's eye color would play a role in the books, JKR's response was "No comment." Wink

Verity Brown

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:52 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Osiodhachain wrote:

We have known for a long time that Harry has his mother's eyes and that this would be important at some point. My question is this: has that card already been played in HBP?

I've wondered that, but somehow I don't think so. It's been made too much of, all through the books, to have its importance come down to just helping Harry get that memory.

I'm still waiting in reserve on the Snape-loved-Lily theory, but I'm seeing more and more, in interviews that I've read and even in this book, to suggest that the theory may have some substance. A couple of the things in the book that particularly stood out:

In chapter 9, Slughorn has four potions prepared for them to look at. Two of these are the Veritaserum and the Polyjuice Potion, both of which have already played a significant role in the books. So, what of the two new ones? One is Felix Felicis, the good luck potion, which plays an important role in this book, although I'm not betting we've seen the last of it. The other is Amortentia, a love potion, which Slug describes as "the most dangerous and powerful potion in this room." Now, we do have a humorous little encounter with love potions when Ron gets one meant for Harry. And it's probable that Merope used a love potion on Tom, Sr. But I seriously doubt that this is the last we will see of Amortentia. I am particularly drawn to another statement that Slug makes about this potion: "When you have seen as much of life as I have, you will not doubt the power of obsessive love..." Hold that thought.

In chapter 25, when Harry is railing to Dumbledore about Snape being the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy, Dumbledore says this: "But he did not know--he had no possible way of knowing--which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father--" Now, I know that some will say I'm overanalyzing, and I very well may be, but humor me for a minute: Dumbledore mentions Harry's mother first in naming them. And, interestingly, Harry totally ignores his mother (as he has tended to do all along) when he responds to this comment. Still more interesting, Dumbledore goes on to say: "I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life..." Now, Dumbledore knows perfectly well that what Harry has just said--that Snape hated James and Sirius--is true. So there must be another reason why he believes that his role in focusing the Dark Lord's attention on the Potters is Snape's "greatest regret." So...what about Lily (and her eyes)?

I'm not the one to originate the idea I'm about to expound, but I think it fits in neatly here. What if the aspect of "Snape's Worst Memory" that was actually his worst memory was calling Lily a Mudblood?

Like I said, I'm not sure about the Snape-loved-Lily theory. But I thought those items were interesting. And if it's true, Lily's eyes may, indeed, come to have a significance. (Although I'm still put off on this theory by the fact that Snape never seems to have taken any special notice of Harry's eyes before.)

One last stray thought, going back to Dumbledore earlier quote: "he had no possible way of knowing--which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward." If the Snape-loved-Lily theory is true, I wonder if this might explain, in part, Snape's real viciousness toward Neville. After all, if Voldemort had chosen Neville to try to kill, Lily would still be alive.

Well, that was entertaining...thanks for indulging.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:52 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

While it may have more meaning, it could simply be a way to remind Harry of who he is, and also maybe to remind him that although he looks a lot like his father (who is a jerk and a bully), his mother was kind and sympathetic...

Or it could be more than that...it's hard to know what to overanalyze!

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Verity Brown

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:58 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

I just read the rest of the first part of the interview on Mugglenet, and I was struck by the fact that JKR spends quite a bit of time trying to distinguish between James' death and Lily's. If I understood what she was saying correctly, Voldemort just killed James out of hand, because he was in the way. But he gave Lily the choice to stand aside. And therefore, she really did die for Harry's sake, because she didn't have to die, and that's what made the protective magic work.

Now, why would Voldemort give Lily the chance to stand aside and live? This is, in fact, a really old question, but this interview raises it anew.

I'm going to toddle out along this limb here and do a little speculating that connects to the Snape-loved-Lily theory I was expounding for fun earlier.

Voldemort doesn't seem like the sort of person who would show even the very meager gesture of mercy he makes in offering to let Lily live. I could be wrong about that, I admit. But let's run with it for a bit.

Suppose Snape, realizing that the Potter's are going to be killed, makes some kind of effort to prevent at least Lily from being killed. After all, it's baby Harry who is the target. And if Snape loves Lily in the obsessive way I'm supposing he must (if he loves her at all, that is), then he has no particular reason to greatly mourn the passing of either James or James' son. So...suppose he offers something special to Voldemort in exchange for at least offering Lily the chance to live. Here's where things break down, because I'm not sure what Snape could offer Voldemort that Voldemort wouldn't just say "bugger your 'deal'--do it anyway." But say that somehow Snape persuades Voldemort to do this.

Here's where it gets interesting: that would mean that Snape's love for Lily, however bizarre and creepy it might be (and I grant you that it could be that), is what gave Lily the chance to have her love save Harry. Yeah, I know this is a pretty freaky theory. But that has such a lovely convoluted symmetry to it that it seems like something JKR really might do--especially given her insistence (through Dumbledore) that it's love that is the key to defeating Voldemort.

Just a weird idea to chew on.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:20 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Or else Voldemort didn't realize he was giving Lily a choice.

"Stand aside, girl." May have just been for dramatic effect, or he wanted to kill Harry and get it over with before his place as his as Supreme Moldie-Butt is assured.

Or, Slughorn tried influencing Voldemort away from Lily, given she seemed like a particular favourite...

I personally want to believe the Snape-Lily relationship, but there isn't anything too conclusive...

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

ellerobbie

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:53 pm

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 5

Quote:

Here's where it gets interesting: that would mean that Snape's love for Lily, however bizarre and creepy it might be (and I grant you that it could be that), is what gave Lily the chance to have her love save Harry. Yeah, I know this is a pretty freaky theory. But that has such a lovely convoluted symmetry to it that it seems like something JKR really might do--especially given her insistence (through Dumbledore) that it's love that is the key to defeating Voldemort.

Both of your posts were excellent, Verity - but this particular line stood out. It's interesting because, even if Snape is evil, if this is true, it means he played a crucial role in bringing down Voldemort. Which brings us back once again to Snape helping Harry unknowingly.

With each passing book (and the continued lack of information on Lily other than bits and pieces) I become more and more convinced of her huge role in the entire series. I feel like it's fairly close to an all-or-nothing: once one thing is known, everything else is going to fall into place. And after Book Six (with Snape as one of the title characters), I'm convinced much of what he don't know is going to come down to what we don't know about Snape and Lily (either separately or together).

Cheers,
Elle

Pace

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:19 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Cologne (Germany)

I have one word for you: denial.

I think it is a quite established fact that everyone (no exceptions) says, when they first meet Harry, that he looks like his father. Only then comes to bit about Lily's eyes.

Snape, too, always compares Harry to his father - in his opinion they are both the same kind. Maybe his (well-deserved) hatred for James blinds him so much that he is unable to see Lily in Harry - suppose he really did love her (obsessively?). After all, we know next to nothing about Lily, except that her sister is a real pain in the derriere, that she had emerald green eyes and red hair, that her first wand was 10 1/4 inch long, made of willow and a 'nice wand for charm work.', and what we gathered from Snape's worst memory (and all this gives us so much insight on her personality and abilities, right?).

And while I'm at the subject of this memory: I think Verity said that it might have been Snape's worst because he called Lily mudblood in it.

I'd like to add another theory: maybe it was his worst memory because he was 1. totalle emberassed in front of the girl he liked and 2. because (although he was being an ass to her) she called him 'Snivellus', which used to be James & Sirius 'nickname' for him. Keeping in mind that everything is a hundred times worse when it happens to us in front of someone we love and want to impress I think this could be also a reason why Snape would rather not have Harry witness it.

If Snape really loved Lily, though, then this explains both his regret and his willingness to sacrifice his life. Although I do doubt that he tried to bargain with Voldemort for Lily's life: he never mentioned towards Bellatrix what sort of story he supposedly made up for Dumbledore and if I understood the book correctly, then Snape became a spy only after the prophezy was made (maybe after Voldemort had decided which infant he would kill?).

I was going to add something else but now I forgot it. I'll post it later should Í remember it, but that's it for now.

_________________
If it's not chocolate I'm not interested.

Owlbait

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:50 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Pace wrote:

After all, we know next to nothing about Lily, except that her sister is a real pain in the derriere, that she had emerald green eyes and red hair, that her first wand was 10 1/4 inch long, made of willow and a 'nice wand for charm work.', and what we gathered from Snape's worst memory (and all this gives us so much insight on her personality and abilities, right?).

We did learn something new about her - she was good at Potions, good enough to be one of Slughorn's favorites.

_________________
Owlbait at Occlumency: http://occlumency.sycophanthex.com/viewuser.php?uid=3671

Pace

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:57 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Cologne (Germany)

Touché, as of now, we also do know that. Still this does tell us little about her personality and her relationship to others. Whenever there's the childhood of Harry's parents mentioned, its always the Marauders. I find this somewhat odd.

_________________
If it's not chocolate I'm not interested.

Verity Brown

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:53 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Good ideas, Pace! I hadn't considered that aspect of Snape's Worst Memory.

Owlbait: I think you're right about Lily being the key to everything. The dearth of information about her, and Harry's continual focus on his father instead of his mother (even though it was her love that has protected him for so long) is becoming, by now, quite conspicuous. (For instance--why would Harry not ask Slughorn for some reminiscences about her, since she was one of his favorite students? Does he just not care to learn more about his mom?) That does suggest that JKR can't tell us more without giving away the ending.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Owlbait

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:52 pm

Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92

Verity Brown wrote:

I didn't say she was the key to everything, but she is intriguing, and I definitely believe Snape felt something for her and he was probably pretty conflicted about that. I'm not convinced Snape asked Voldemort to spare her although it's a theory worth considering.

As for Harry not asking Slughorn, it looks like Harry seriously disliked him and went far out of his way to avoid him. Maybe that was a plot device to JKR to keep us from wondering, or maybe it's the inevitable result of Slughorn being the Slytherin he is.

_________________
Owlbait at Occlumency: http://occlumency.sycophanthex.com/viewuser.php?uid=3671

Wolf Moonshadow

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:07 am

Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 12 Location: A state of delusion (Florida)

I had never given the whole Snape/Lily relationship much credence before this last book. The pensive memory always struck me as focusing far more on James and Sirius’s interactions with Snape, than with Lily. What is reveled in HBP, and just as important, what is not reveled, does suggest a more personal link between them. I’m still not sure it was romantic, but I do highly suspect that their relationship (what ever it was) will be one of the main reasons Snape gave for defecting. If you add in the possibility that Dumbledore’s pleading in the cave may have actually been Snape’s memories, it becomes quite interesting.

Verity Brown wrote:

One last stray thought, going back to Dumbledore earlier quote: "he had no possible way of knowing--which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward." If the Snape-loved-Lily theory is true, I wonder if this might explain, in part, Snape's real viciousness toward Neville. After all, if Voldemort had chosen Neville to try to kill, Lily would still be alive.
Verity

This had never occured to me before, what an interesting possibility.

~Wolf

_________________
The wild dogs cry out in the night, as they grow restless, longing for some solitary company.
(Toto-Africa)

Verity Brown

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:21 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Wolf Moonshadow wrote:

But we were looking at it through Harry's eyes. And as we've seen in the past, the "Harry filter" is frequently unreliable. Harry's interest only in his father, and what is becoming an increasingly suspicious disinterest in his mother, leads me to suspect that the Pensieve memory, from Snape's POV, might have been interpreted a bit differently--and with a somewhat different primary focus--than Harry saw it.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

All times are GMT

View next topic View previous topic Page 1 of 1 Sycophant Hex Forum Index ~ The Library

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum