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SPK

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:16 pm

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 2

Note: The following is not meant to offend fans of the “good” side. It’s simply the opinion of a reader/viewer who believes that without villains and antiheroes, the fictional world would lose just about all its appeal.

Does it really matter if Snape is good or evil?

Of course the direction of Snape’s loyalty matters to the plotline of the book, but does it really have any impact on whether or not we should love Snape as a character? Regardless of which side has his allegiance, he is still the most fiery, interesting character in the entire series. Without villainous characters, books/movies/television would be incredibly dull since most heroes are boring and predictable. We need people who are willing to stir things up, conjure our anger and hatred (e. g. Snape’s constant ridicule of Longbottom throughout the series) and make us cheer because they’re not afraid to dish out punishments that are often deserved (e. g. Snape embarrassing Lockhart during their “duel” and the ease with which Snape assigns Harry detentions while many other adults let him get away with unruly behavior).

Regardless of Snape’s reasons for certain actions or where his loyalty is directed, without him Harry Potter would lose ninety-nine percent of its appeal. If he turns out purely evil, he can proudly join the ranks of the best fictional villains in history. If he turns out good, he’s a marvelous example of how people cannot be judged on appearance alone. Either way, the character wins and so does J.K. Rowling for her fascinating creation.

Consider for a moment these superb villains/antiheroes and how much they have added to their respective fictional worlds:

Faith and Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Evil Angel from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Far more interesting than “goody” Angel.)
Callisto from Xena, Warrior Princess
Bram Stoker’s Dracula
Lex Luthor from Smallville
Magneto and Mystique from X-Men
Wolverine from X-Men (Not a villain, but a hero who’s not afraid to let his wild side take over.)
Cardinal Richelieu from The Three Musketeers
Erik from Phantom of the Opera (Who really wants boring, young Raoul? For that matter, what in the world did the Phantom see in boring, gullible Christine?)

As for the conspiracy theory regarding the incident between Dumbledore and Snape, I can’t fully agree with the “Snape is Good“ opinion. Anything is possible, but I tend to believe Dumbledore is just as dim as he appears. Throughout the series, J. K. Rowling has given clues to her characters’ personalities by the names she chooses for them. The first four letters of Dumbledore’s name spell out dumb, so I tend to believe that yes, he would swallow Snape’s weak claim to feeling remorse over his past actions involving Harry’s parents.

Regarding the deaths of Sirius Black and Dumbledore. I cannot say that either character was a personal favorite, nor is Harry. In truth, with each book I tend to like Harry less and less. Sirius’ death struck me as more depressing than Dumbledore’s because after so many years Harry finally found someone who cared about him alone and that person was killed. Regardless of whether or not I like or dislike Harry, he was still a child who suffered at the hands of his rotten relatives and deserved the care and affection Sirius probably would have given him. As for Dumbledore’s death, I didn’t feel much at all since his character never really stirred my emotions one way or another.

In response to some of the posts I've seen about the loss of fan-fiction Snape, the truth is each fan's Snape has been a part of his own alternate Harry Potter universe. In the friendship/romance stories, he met characters who would never have been introduced in J.K.'s official world, therefore no one knows how he would have reacted to the OFC who believes in him and captures his interest enough to possibly reevaluate his behavior. The fan fictions veered off into their own worlds where Snape's experiences guided him toward becoming a different kind of character, so why stop writing those wonderful, entertaining stories where the end turns out exactly how some fans might hope it would? That's the great thing about fan fiction, the evil version or the good version of a character work equally well.

No matter who your favorite characters are, one thing is certain, book seven is sure to be a major seller for J. K. Rowling and her publisher(s) and I say thanks to her for giving us such great fun.

Three cheers for the greasier-than-ever git.

Melvacaea

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:32 pm

Joined: 06 May 2005 Posts: 36

You have a point.

That's all I find I can say. I'm currently in a catatonic state and my brain is on 'off'.

_________________
"One word removes us from the weight and pain of life -- that word is love." -Sophocles

Severus' mind is his own. We can only speculate.

Verity Brown

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:07 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

SPK wrote:

In response to some of the posts I've seen about the loss of fan-fiction Snape, the truth is each fan's Snape has been a part of his own alternate Harry Potter universe. In the friendship/romance stories, he met characters who would never have been introduced in J.K.'s official world, therefore no one knows how he would have reacted to the OFC who believes in him and captures his interest enough to possibly reevaluate his behavior. The fan fictions veered off into their own worlds where Snape's experiences guided him toward becoming a different kind of character, so why stop writing those wonderful, entertaining stories where the end turns out exactly how some fans might hope it would?

This is such a good point! All fan-fiction is, by its very nature, AU. You have characters doing and saying things that they will never do or say in canon. They may be very much like things that the characters might do or say. They may be very different. But it's all a manifestation of our imaginations, not JKR's. A good AU story can be just as entertaining as a close-to-canon one. When it comes right down to it, fan-fiction is about what it pleases the fan-fic author to write and the fan-fic reader to read. If both are satisfied, why should anyone complain?

Quote:

Three cheers for the greasier-than-ever git.

Hear, hear!

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

aphrodeia

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:12 am

Moderator Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 46

SPK wrote:

Does it really matter if Snape is good or evil?

Of course the direction of Snape’s loyalty matters to the plotline of the book, but does it really have any impact on whether or not we should love Snape as a character? ....

Beyond that, does it really matter in the books? Even if he proves to have done the deed at Dumbledore's request, I can't possibly fathom that anyone would take him back... not after all that's happened. He's been painted into a corner. I'm fairly convinced at this point that he'll die by the end of book seven.

YAY FOR AU! Very Happy

Lady Whitehart

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:19 am

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 38 Location: East Coast USA

I have been watching these posts from the sidelines, and am pleased to see that everyone is beginning to settle down.

Let's be honest with ourselves as to why we write fanfiction in the first place:

1. It's fun! Creativity gives you such a rush. Or maybe I'm just weird like that.

2. It's to satisfy a part of our brains that were left unfulfilled from the books. When we write, we can take a truly wonderful and exciting character, and make him into whatever we want him to be. To each of us he becomes a villian to be defeated, a misunderstood hero to be celebrated, a way to take cheap shots at that nasty teacher we all had to endure, a sex god whose hung like a mountain troll, or the most caring lover any girl could ever dream of.

3. Admit it with me -- the reviews. For some people that may be the only praise they get all day. For others, it's an affirmation of talent.

The most important thing, is that Rowling has allowed us to use, and sometimes abuse, her creation. She could have just as easily said "Write about them, and I'll sue the pants off of you."

At any rate, she has given us two or more years to speculate what is really the truth. We won't know until book 7. And if he's evil, well so be it. Until then, we can all cling to what HBP revealed to us as individuals. Take care ladies and gentlmen, and happy writing!

:lol:

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:51 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

I'm sure she'd take Snape away from me in an instant if she saw what I've been doing to him...

JK is definately a fan's author. She knows she has fans, doesn't try ignoring them, understands how we want to know stupid things sometimes, and keeps things sufficiently playful to keep us guessing. That she's willing to do so much for her fans rocks, and she's definately my favourite author.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Lady Whitehart

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:17 am

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 38 Location: East Coast USA

Most likely with the thought of "Why didn't I see him in that light before."

Very Happy

Now I'm rightly intrigued, and will be sure to look up some of your work.

I guess the lesson we need to take from this is how powerful the written word can be.

Weddings and funerals bring out the best in some, and the worst in other. Book 7 will have both. Shame it's such a long wait in between stories.

Well, I'm off to work on my now-AU fic. Yes, I plan on finishing it. I need to deliver the lemons, or my head will end up on a stick. Not literally, I hope!

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:28 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Hehe.

*Insert Shameless Plug*

I only have one story up on Ashwinder *cough*Didn't Expect That*cough*

I have tons of story ideas, but I always seem to be overcome with ADD and I forget where I was going, lol.

*End Shameless Plug*

I don't like sharing my private Snape. He's there for inspiration...
Twisted Evil

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Lady Whitehart

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:05 am

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 38 Location: East Coast USA

One shameless plug deserves another.

I'm posted on Occlumency and the fic is Shadow on My Heart Laughing

I also keep my private Snape locked away. Don't worry I feed him well, and he gets plenty of exercise.

Right now I really feel for all of those poor souls on the Dumbledore fansites. Crying or Very sad

They must still be in a state of shock.

Marianne

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:45 am

Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 25

To me it DOES matter whether Snape is evil or not. If he turned out to be completly evil in book 7, well, I could no longer deal with most of the fics. Maybe it would be different if he were described as a tragic person who could not act otherwise. in the meantime I will continue to read (I've also begun to write !!! and please!!!! I need a beta mainly for mistakes in grammar or poor English because I'm German).
I fairly agree about your remarks concerning your "private Snape". Since I've read here I've really become addicted: Snape is a dangerous potion! Wink

Delirium

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:35 am

Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 34 Location: New York

Quote:

I can't possibly fathom that anyone would take him back... not after all that's happened. He's been painted into a corner. I'm fairly convinced at this point that he'll die by the end of book seven.

My thoughts exactly. So I figure I've got two years to use him, then I have to give him back to JKR.

azazello

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:55 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

To me it does not matter if Snape is evil or not, provided it makes for an exciting ride in book 7.

You know I had a lot of opinions, very clearly stated on most of the big pure canon forums. Then after I stated 'em, I went off and wrote lots of fanfic which is all (largely) based on how I felt the character of Snape was going. Sure, I wrote SS/HG but my fics were all much more Snape centric.

Here, for the record is what I got wrong (well, the digest version):

I thought he was pureblooded

I thought he was from a distinguished pureblooded family who had fallen on hard times.

I thought he was a noble sort of man - not necessarily on the surface, but underneath was a great anti-hero who had undergone and life long and almost killing struggle against his own dark nature.

I wrote an essay on lj, called, "In Defence of Snape the Hero" - it's been quoted all over the place. I truly believed that was the Snape in the books until last week.

Last week, I saw spoilers all over lj, I could have screamed. One thing is for sure, I'm off the internet for a month before book seven.

I wrote Snape backstory first, "Therapy" - that was my first ever fiction of any kind, then I wrote a sequel to it which got me into SS/HG. Essentially, give or take a few adjustments, the man in all those stories is the same man, an original fictional character who happens to share the name of a character in J K Rowling's Harry Potter books. Because since reading HBP my fic take on Snape is blown. No, he was not a fluffy bunny in my stories. No he was not a player of baroque harpsichord music in my stories either, and yes, he was brilliant in the sack in nearly all my stories, though I at least set up a very believable backstory of fairly cold blooded serial one night stands to set it up.

That character was an OMC. (original male character).

Now, I could get all annoyed about it, and do what a lot of fen are doing and suggest that Rowling has ratted on me and other fans, but there's no point.

I was disappointed in Snape - by which I mean his actions and apparent outlook, in the sixth book. He's a much lesser man than my anti-hero. But in another way, I'm hugely impressed by Snape. I love this new (or rather old, if you read POA properly) version. The possibilities are much better. So as I read Book 6 and realised that the romance writer's version was not coming back I decided to get along and start really getting with the new Snape.

this is what he is: it's like looking at a colour photograph and not a sepia or negative faded picture of someone. This is the real thing. Did anyone read any of the book and think, "This is not Snape!" No, because we were in the hands of the author who knows him best, and who created him. Most of us write fanfic because of JKR not because of some fanfic we read. My first fanfic grew out of a post I intended making to the HPFGU list, and not from another fanfic.

Everyone that I know of got Snape at least partly wrong. If we are all losers, we are none of us winners, either.

So what of the future?

There's three possibilities.

If properly written, why should any of those spoil the series? I have no doubt of Ms Rowling's supreme ability to write a more mesmerising Snape than any fanfic author in the game. Therefore I am inclined to trust her, and believe that whatever the truth about Severus Snape, the pleasure is in the journey. Whichever of the three he was in book 6, he was spellbinding. He dominated his scenes.

His character is clearly much more mixed up and dare I say it fucked up, than we ever dreamed. That does not worry me either, as a fanfic writer I feel rejuvenated, and keen (once I figure out where I stand on him) to write something about him.

No, in answer to the original poster on this thread, it does not matter what side he is on. It's not a let down provided his story in book 6 is told well, and compellingly. I'll not be howling whatever is proven about him (though I have soft spot for an obsessive love for Lily, and the idea that she was to be his prize for supporting Voldemort - how about that, sports fans?). I believe in Jo. She could write him to my satisfaction whatever she does.

Last edited by azazello on Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:29 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Agreed. JK knows what she's doing, and no matter the result, I will be more than satisfied with it.

I don't like Snape because of the fanfic!Snape that's been running around, but because the character itself is so completely mysterious and mesmerizing. He doesn't have to be on the good side to still be an incredibly written character. The levels of complexity that JK has added to the character with HBP only makes me like him more.

Fanfiction allows us to create a character we want to see: essentially, every fanfic!Snape is an original character who just bears a strong resemblence to the character in canon.

Will I stop reading and writing SS/HG? No, because I like seeing many different angles on the character, some more believeable than others, and it creates different ways of looking at the character. I think it can still be done, and I'll be looking forward to it.

The only thing I don't like: the level of angst is going to go up. A lot. I'm not a huge angst fan, but I guess I'll deal with it... if I must... heh.

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Meg Erskine

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:54 pm

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada

Ohhhhhh yes... I can see the angst coming from a mile away. In fact, dear forum members, I have already begun to write it. Embarassed

At first I was horrified at the Snape character development in the book, but later realized the options that were opened up by it. Snape is so much more interesting now! We now know more about his past, his parents... wow. In a way, I couldn't have asked for more. And, once I got over the shock of dear Severus snuffing Dumbledore, I realized *thrills like a fangirl* that our very own Snape was IN THE TITLE OF THE BOOK!
Yeah, I know. Wink

But whether he is evil or not, now he's got backstory.
Cheers to more snapefic!

_________________
!SAVE SEVERUS!

~The good ship S.S. Prudence and Potions is still afloat!~

Verity Brown

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:17 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

Marianne wrote:

To me it DOES matter whether Snape is evil or not.

As I've been following this thread, asking myself whether it matters (since he is just a fictional character, after all), I think I've finally figured out why it matters to me.

Whatever my investment in Snape as a character, my investment in the philosophy that "good guys can wear black" is exponentially greater. I have always been drawn to that type of character, and that's why I was drawn to Snape. The possibility that Snape really is evil totally explodes the "good guys wear black" idea, at least so far as this story is concerned.

(For clarification, I'd like to note that personally I *do* make a very important distinction between "on the side of good" and "a nice person." And no, even a Good!Snape is definitely not "nice"--and I've never thought he was. But it's "good" that matters to me in this instance, not "nice." So please, no one start ragging on me about that issue. Because I'll just ignore it.)

So, Evil!Snape may hold interest for some (and you're welcome to him with my blessings), but I can honestly say that he holds very little interest for me. I can't think of a single fictional character that I've ever liked who gave some impression that he might be good but turned out to be evil. That kind of character is simply not to my tastes as a reader.

So that's why it matters to me how Snape turns out. Is he the kind of character I really like? Or is he the kind of character that I simply have no use for? If the latter, then no, I am not even remotely a Snape fan. So for me, the question really is an important one. Is this character worth my while or not? And if not, I can't help feeling a bit resentful at having been taken in thus far. At having wasted so much of my time and energy on a character that turns out to be the type I ordinarily wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

This quote from Lord of the Rings comes very much to my mind as I consider all this:
There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. 'I believed that you were a friend before the letter came,' he said, 'or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would--well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'

'I see,' laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? All that is gold does not glitter; not all those who wander are lost' (Book I, chapter 10).

I still have some hope that this is true of Snape.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

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