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Verity Brown

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:58 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

just me wrote:

Please don´t be angry with me, but I madly deeply truely hope you are wrong in this point!!!

Gosh, I hope I am, too! Although I would rather have him die a Good!Snape than live (or die) an Evil!Snape. I would like nothing better than for a Good!Snape to survive the ending of book 7. Unfortunately, that's not what my Literary-Analysis-Trained brain is telling me. :~(

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

EnigmaVX

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:49 pm

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

Verity Brown wrote:

just me wrote:

Please don´t be angry with me, but I madly deeply truely hope you are wrong in this point!!!

I agree although I would even take a living ambiguous Snape, over dead good or bad.

Just tossing this out to see what you all make of it, I read on another forum another possible Fawkes point. On page 548 when Harry is talking to Dumbledore after just discovering it was Snape that overheard the prediction, Fawkes gives "a soft squawk" then Harry thinks Dumbledore's face seems to whitened.

Does Fawkes making a sound mean anything beyound Harry startling him by yelling or something more?

Dumbledore's reaction does he whiten because of what Harry learned or Fawkes?

What do you all read into this if anything?

just me

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:52 pm

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 28 Location: Germany

Verity Brown wrote:

I, too, would rather have him a living Good!Snape than a dead Evil!Snape... Wink

Am I asking to much? Maybe not. I´ve read in an interview the following line:

Quote:

She (JKR) hinted that, while Harry will certainly survive to Book 7, he may not make it to the final page.

So, if this is true -- and it could be -- she will certainly not kill TWO of her main characters in one book, will she?

I don´t want to sound cruel, but it is possible that Harry dies in the end, because he is a hero, and some heroes die very young.

And wouldn´t it be a kind of poetic justice if Good!Snape survived the Last Battle and lived a long life with much time to regret his earlier sins (well, not all the time, of course!) and to make amends and to be a better person, a better teacher, a better man? Maybe he could also come to like Harry in the end and mourn him, thinking of all the wonderful times he could have spent with this nice boy?

Well, good night, I have to go to bed, it´s almost midnight.

All the best,
just me

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Verity Brown

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:16 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

EnigmaVX wrote:

Just tossing this out to see what you all make of it, I read on another forum another possible Fawkes point. On page 548 when Harry is talking to Dumbledore after just discovering it was Snape that overheard the prediction, Fawkes gives "a soft squawk" then Harry thinks Dumbledore's face seems to whitened.

Does Fawkes making a sound mean anything beyound Harry startling him by yelling or something more?

Dumbledore's reaction does he whiten because of what Harry learned or Fawkes?

What do you all read into this if anything?

I thought that Dumbledore whitened because of what Harry learned. Dumbledore has consistently refused to tell Harry why he trusts Snape. I think that Harry is coming far too close to the truth for Dumbledore's comfort. I suspect that Dumbledore does not want Harry to know the role Snape played in his parents' deaths, and Dumbledore's emphasis upon Snape's remorse, when Harry is squawking--justifiably--about Snape hating James and Sirius, is very interesting to me.

As for Fawkes squawking, I imagine that he was either reacting to the info in the same way Dumbledore was, or else reacting to Dumbledore's reaction (if, as it seems, they have some psychic bond).

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

EnigmaVX

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:33 pm

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

Verity Brown wrote:

I tend to agree with you that was my initial take on it too, the poster that I got this from was using it in conjuction with Fawkes knowing who was loyal to Dumbledore, re Chamber of Secrets. I had never took to reread and look for the instances when Fawkes makes sounds let alone try and decide what said sound means is most likely meaning less.

Verity Brown

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:47 am

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

EnigmaVX wrote:

the poster that I got this from was using it in conjuction with Fawkes knowing who was loyal to Dumbledore, re Chamber of Secrets.

Now that's a rather interesting thought. Does Fawkes allow Dumbledore to know who to trust? Would Fawkes be fooled by Snape using Occlumency? And that brings me back to an earlier question: why wasn't Fawkes there when Dumbledore needed him, on top of the tower?

I can't remember, and I don't have the books handy at the moment, but would Fawkes' tears antidote any poison? If so, why would Dumbledore not call Fawkes to him, at the very latest when he returned to Hogwarts? Fawkes seems like a better solution in a pinch than the possibility of Snape brewing up an antidote in time. Is this fuel for the theory that Dumbledore was planning to die?

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

KyahDreaming

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:39 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 7

Quote:

She did not write that "he looked at Dumbledore with revulsion and hatred". The actual line is ambiguous and we have to assume deliberately so. My take on it is he feels revulsion and hatred for himself, his own past actions got him into this horrible situation.

Mmm...maybe not for himself, and maybe not because he hated AD, but maybe because AD put Snape in that position in the first place. I don't think it's a secret that he hates being a spy, and that he's being badly used by both sides. Not only that, but with AD gone, slain by his own hands, there is no one else in the wizarding world who would be willing to trust him again (except maybe Hermione Very Happy

). So he's basically killing his only friend and ally on the side of the light.

just me

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:36 am

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 28 Location: Germany

Verity Brown wrote:

I can't remember, and I don't have the books handy at the moment, but would Fawkes' tears antidote any poison? If so, why would Dumbledore not call Fawkes to him, at the very latest when he returned to Hogwarts? Fawkes seems like a better solution in a pinch than the possibility of Snape brewing up an antidote in time. Is this fuel for the theory that Dumbledore was planning to die?

Verity

Hi, I´ve checked the Harry Potter Lexicon about Fawkes and his tears and they say only "Phoenix tears heal wounds", but nothing about poisons. And I cross-checked the Basilisc-section of HPL, and they say "Harry's arm was pierced by one of the basilisk's fangs, the poison of which nearly killed him." This is a bit contradictorily or inconsistent in my eyes, but it could mean that Fawkes´ tears actually could antidote poisons, too. Unfortunately somewhere in Book 6 is said that there are poisons for which no antidote exists. But would that also exclude phoenix tears?

So, if Fawkes could have healed Dumbledore, why would he send explicitly for Snape when they returned from the Cave. And yes, where is Fawkes, when his owner needs him the most?

I think this is indeed fuel to the theory of a "planned demise", together with the fact Dumbledore was thrown in the air by Snape´s AK and fell off the Astronomy Tower, out of everybody´s sight!

There is a very interesting theory in the Lifejournal of garlandgraves about this, with which I agree in great parts.

But I would like to go still some steps further and repeat my theory, that not only did Dumbledore plan his death, but did plan to fake his death! I think, Dumbledore planned something together with Snape, but the events after he returned with Harry from the Cave maybe did not allow their initial plan. They could have had a so-called plan B or worst-case scenario which meant Snape had to actually kill him... what we all "saw" he did.
But what if Dumbledore had still another ass up the sleeve, a very own version of a worst-case scenario plotted together with Fawkes?
Dumbledore fell off the Astronomy Tower and nobody saw him falling or where he landed. This is where Fawkes comes in handy, because phoenixes can carry heavy weights, as we have seen in CoS. Then we hear Fawkes sing his mourning song... is it really mourning? Or is it a kind of ancient magic, or does he have to sing this long because it takes this long to heal the still poisoned Dumbledore? I assume Fawkes cries while singing his sad song.

The point in this scenario is: nobody, not even Snape knows Dumbledore is still alive and could bring this information to Voldemort. Voldemort must not know Dumbledore is still alive, as he should think Harry is weakend (by the loss) and alone (without Dumbledore) and maybe he sees a good chance for their confrontation and finally makes his move.

And if you think now, that this could mean Dumbledore did not trust Snape: NO! I think his motive for this plot with Fawkes is: if Snape thinks he is really killing Dumbledore he will react and act more realistically as if he knew about the fake. It is so to say supporting Snape in his "role of killer".

But... how could Dumbledore survive if Snape really cast a genuine Avada Kedavra? Hm, this is very tricky, but it also must have to do with Fawkes. Maybe the very close connection to Fawkes over all thess years, the very close relationship they both have, maybe Fawkes´love for his owner... yeah, Fawkes once died for Dumbledore as someone cast an AK on him and this could have protected Dumbledore from further curses...
I don´t know. Here my theory still has holes. All I know: it has to do with Fawkes, his feathers and... love.
And why did Snape´s curse not bounce back on himself and hurt him like LV´s AK against Harry? Because Snape had no own intent to kill Dumbledore, but he acted on the explicit order, so, yes he "wanted" to kill Dumbledore because otherwise the curse would not have been effective, but he had no real personal motivation or own intent to kill DD: he just did as he was told to.
This could be one of the reasons for the hatred on his face in the moment of the killing: he really "hated" Dumbledore in this moment because the headmaster "used" him once more and forced him to kill his -- maybe -- only real friend.

But what furthermore convinces me of Dumbledore faked death is the funeral scene: a burst of white flames (!) and white smoke curls in strange shapes: even Harry thinks for a moment to have seen a ghostly phoenix rise in the air -- Dumbledores patronus is a phoenix!
I think this proofs Dumbledore is still alive, because a corpse could not have cast a patronus. And he sent the patronus to... whom? An Order Member? Maybe even to Snape to let him know everything is alright, his old friend is still alive? Now it would be okay for Snape to know, because as he has already "killed" Dumbledore in a very realistic, convincing way, he can know the secret, as he is very gifted in Occlumency.

What about the new portrait in the headmasters office/study? We do not know when exactly such a new portrait appears or if the person portraied really has to be dead. And as Dumbledore is still "slumbering" in the portrait: maybe also the portrait is a fake -- hence the slumbering, so that nobody becomes aware of the fake yet.

Yes, I know my theory seems somewhat far-fetched, and maybe it is one of the theories JKR would say strictly: No!

But, hey, I believe in it and if anybody does not... feel free to blast it. Then I´ll find a new one that proofs beyond every doubt that SNAPE IS GOOD!

He may not be nice and handsome and congenial as others, and he may have done terrible things in his past and maybe also in his present. But I prefer to see him as a very complicated multi-layered person with much bad luck and a bad background -- and furthermore very bad connections at the school -- who is predistined to always have to do the dirty work for others, so that the "real heroes" can keep their hands clean.

All the best,
just me

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EnigmaVX

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:38 pm

Joined: 22 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

Verity Brown wrote:

If phoenix tears cured everything then that would be almost, if not as good as the philosophers stone would it not? The tears to me therefor would have to be limited, powerful aye but not all powerful, else they would be an elixir of life. Also I would like to point out Dumbledore’s hand, Fawkes obviously did not, and lets assume, could not heal that injury. Note the descriptions of the injury, Hermione upon seeing it states "It looks as if it died" …with a nauseated expression…"But there are some injuries you can’t cure…old curses…and there are poisons without antidotes…." JK makes other mention of his hand though out the book, and admitted in the interview to foreshadowing Dumbledore’s death. Which begs the question if we as readers picked up on this would not some of the characters? Snape treated Dumbledore if the injury was slowly killing him would Snape of all people not have known this? Perhaps he put a stopper in death for Dumbledore, to slow down the process? Dumbledore also kept putting off telling Harry the story why? To save Harry from the pain such knowledge would bring or simply that he always wanted to discuss other more important issues? But if that is the case why not tell him before going after the horcrux would not knowledge about the trap he had previously faced been of use to Harry on the mission?

Which leads us again to why Fawkes did not appear on the tower, I don’t recall any mention of his being in the process of molting which could possibly affect his flight ability nor him being currently to young to fly. So I find it to be a indication that Dumbledore was not looking to be saved on the tower. Wishful thinking perhaps. I would like to think his saying Severus upon first sight of Snape held the tone of a plea for mercy a please end my agony in the only way NOW possible (due to circumstances which will be addressed later) when Harry heard this he was "frightened beyond anything he had experienced all evening" Why this response, did he perhaps hear in Dumbledore’s voice something he did not want to accept? Is blaming Snape perhaps the easy way out for something he is not yet ready or able to understand? I sure hope it wasn’t a reaction to it holding the tone of don’t do what I am afraid you are about to…How I wish JK had described Dumbledore’s face…by not doing so a careful reader is left with two equally possible explanations, one grant me mercy etc., two don’t give up your soul.

Next Fawkes ability to know who is loyal to Dumbledore. This leads us to Fawkes squawk, the post I got this referred to Fawkes’s makes noises at the mention of other peoples names, without going though all the books I can not verify this, (wish I had the whole series on computer so as to do a simple search) tell I get a chance to reread all the books. Tell what time as we have a list complied of such occurrences this may or may not be of importance. Perhaps doing so would let us know if he does so at the sight or mention of those who are trustworthy or those who are not. Either way though assuming for a moment the squawks and chips do hold meaning would not Dumbledore know this? If so did his face whiten because of Fawkes or because Harry found out about Snape overhearing the prophecy? I tend (want) to believe the latter and that Dumbledore did not want to give Harry the full account because he knew it would only make the whole Snape/Harry situation worse.

Would the above reason then negate the idea that Dumbledore wanted Snape to AK him on the tower? Not, if Dumbledore only anticipated Draco, if the other DE’s were unexpected then the whole situation becomes more highly charged and dangerous. Recall JK seemed to shoot down the planned idea of the death but not the speculation about what really occurred. What does that leave us then? Personally it takes me back to my earlier posting about contingency plans and non verbal communication. Caught up in such a lose lose situation Dumbledore chose sacrifice due to several reasons. He was perhaps already dying, and the poison was only adding to that process and even though Snape possibly could have slowed it down he could not have stopped it from happening, Dumbledore was the secret keeper and facing possible capture would it have been of any benefit for Snape to reveal his true allegiance? Plus Harry was there, we know Draco had immediately noticed the second broom, is there any doubt that Snape would not have also? Further Snape quickly got the other DE’s and Draco out of Hogworts. I think Snape’s actions though out the book show a true master of covert actions. In Spinner’s End I see someone who knows how to lie by telling mainly truth. When others point to Emmeline Vance as proof of Snape’s loyalty to Voldemort, I would argue that of course he had to feed information to Voldemort but it would have been information approved by the Order, in such a situation there are risks, I say one was taken and it panned out poorly. Snape though as any good spy used this to refute Bella’s accusations an example of using the truth to construct a lie.

I have also pondered JK calling Snape culpable and decided that it was ambiguous since she did not state what exactly he is blameworthy of or when the event took place, as stated in this and other forums it could be an event in the past. Once again JK leaves us with ( in my opinion ) two possible explanations, the overhearing of the prophecy and the subsequent events at Godric’s Hollow, or Dumbledore’s death. I tend to go with the former but can not rule out the later. Personally I think she has spent to much time carefully writing Snape’s character, his personality & attitude seem in brilliantly contrasted by his actions, why if he is to simply turn out to be evil. Also after putting so much careful time into this why not toss out a few carefully worded ambiguous statements? What satisfaction would she get as an author if her master twist is too quickly seen. To quote someone else who could not of put it better

Subtle Science wrote:

"Should she change Snape, suddenly, in the 7th book, to evil, she completely dismantles the thematic structure and logic of her own creation. Writers have done it before: started off well--even great--and had their books collapse in the final chapters or the final volume. So she may well do it. But doing so renders the first six books meaningless." Subtle Science

Last lets look at the use of Avada Kedavra without going into Snape’s expression or later reaction to being called a coward for using it, that would be just repeating what has already been addressed. I would ask the question: Is there a difference between using it to kill to simply kill or doing so out of love and/or mercy? We know it takes intent and emotion behind the intent…I ask does not the circumstances make a difference? I would ask you consider the following, my father was in WWII when he talks of bravery he always refers to a tragic event involving the members of a downed plane, (he was a mechanic and so not there when this occurred) all of the crew but the pilot were able to get out of the burning craft, the pilot though was trapped and burning alive with NO possibility of the others rescuing him, he
pleaded (my fathers term not mine) to be shot, one of his crewman did so. The others responded with mixed reactions, two going so far in their condemnation of the act that they got the shooter court-martialed, he was eventually found not guilty of murder due to extenuating circumstances. I ask who was showing true bravery here the ones willing to watch the guy die an agonizing death or the shooter?

Last rather than repeating all this from another forum do you think there is anything to the idea that the riddle in the first book contains everything we need to know to figure out the series? If so lets post it and see what we can come up with.

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=62588

Verity Brown

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:43 pm

Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA

EnigmaVX wrote:

To quote someone else who could not of put it better

Subtle Science wrote:

One of the big themes of the books seems to be choices. This matter is laid out very plainly in CoS, when Dumbledore emphasizes to Harry that his choices are what has made him different from Voldemort. I've seem some very interesting posts about viewing Harry, Snape and Tom/LV as a triad of similar characters who have made different choices. If Harry is the one who is choosing good, and Voldemort is the one who is choosing evil, where does that put Snape? Obviously, he chose evil to begin with--he became a Death Eater and was working for Voldemort. If he has been lying to Dumbledore from the beginning about changing his choices, then Snape is merely a nasty parody of Voldemort.

If Snape is, in fact, evil, then what JKR said about him being more culpable has much larger ramefications. He would be, in a very real sense, more evil than Voldemort. It may be, if he did betray Dumbledore, that she is making him a Judas figure. And I doubt that there is any villain that excites such hatred in the Western imagination as a man who betrays the leader who trusts in him.

A "Judas" character can be interesting, if one can ask "why did he do it?" Unfortunately, with Snape, the fact that he was evil before makes such a question pretty moot. An Evil!Snape never experiences any change in his character. If he's been deceiving Dumbledore all along, then any "good" acts (like saving Harry) have been exactly that--an act--and his decision to kill Dumbledore when he had the chance is merely what was to be expected of him. Frankly, I find that really boring.

I think the triad idea only works if Snape *did* change his choices--from evil to good (I would have said that a Conflicted!Snape was possible, but with the events of this book, he pretty well burned his bridges to the Order side). Admittedly, the triad is a construct we're coming up with. But the resemblences between the three characters in canon are sufficient to prompt such an analysis.

I have to agree with Subtle Science: turning Snape evil would seem to deconstruct a lot of what the author has been building throughout the series. I also agree that it could happen. I have read really good books (even within the past month) that fell apart at the ending. It's a sad and sorry thing, but it does happen. I just hope it doesn't happen to Harry Potter.

Verity

_________________
I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever.

Beulah_Page

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:17 am

Joined: 16 Apr 2005 Posts: 14 Location: Nebraska, United States

It's an interesting idea that Harry, Snape, and LV are character foils; I don't know how carefully this was constructed, but it does, indeed, show the different possibilities of love and it's effect on choices. It's a good chance to re-evaluate ourselves. Harry and LV are the extremes, the black and white, clear cut good and evil. Snape is the grey area, the one that we are most like. We make some really stupid choices and live with the repercussions and have to deal with the fact that the ones we love will be hurt because of something we did. We continually ask ourselves if we're doing the right thing and how to tell if we are. This is something I hadn't considered before, and will continue to ponder.

Talihina

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:02 pm

Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 1

Okay, here's my theory:

I believe that Dumbledore knows of Snape's unbreakable Vow. While Ron is in the hospital, Harry and Hermione leave with Hagrid who tells them of a confrontation between Snape and Dumbledore. Snapes tells Dumbledore he assumes too much and Hagrid believes Snape is overworked.

I believe that Dumbledore is telling him that if is should come to Draco killing him or Severus that he must do it to protect Draco from the consequences of murder. Dumbledore would sacrifice himself to protect a student as he is the ultimate teacher. Snape having to carry out this vow would be able to continue spying for the Order and save Draco at the same time. Dumbledore won't be gone as he will now be a former headmaster and available in his portrait at Hogwarts.

Anyway, that's my theory, no matter how much I dislike Snape's attitude toward Harry, I believe his loyalty is to Dumblerdore.

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Melpomene Erato

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:57 pm

Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 3

I very much fear that our beloved Snape is one of the two who shall die in the last book. His position really isn't stable: he killed DD, and whether or not he is finally vindicated, his life would be a living hell forever after in the wizarding society. Crying or Very sad

What really makes me sad is that after Snape dies, our stories will stop. Let's face it, most of us aren't brave enough to go AU. It's only the most outstanding authors who can get away with it.

Many people won't even read AU stories (though one of my favorites is such). I hate the idea of reading a bunch of stories where Snape will always die. What will become of Occlumency???

Mel

Marianne

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:17 pm

Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 25

I could live with AU-stories. For me, the danger for this site to die would be if Severus Snape turned out to be evil.

LadyWhitehart

Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:23 pm

Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 193 Location: New Jersey, USA

*hands Mel a tissue*

The only way for Occlumency to survive after Snape's probable demise in Book 7 is to write write stories about a much younger Snape. Cross your fingers all in hopes that he is the character that got the reprieve.

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