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Verity Brown
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA
Our first stop is at Spinner's End. Do you remember how Snape hesitated before agreeing to the last part of Narcissa's oath? I've seen suggestions that he may not have even known the plot (as he claimed he did), but was trying to find out by pretending to know more than he did. Either way, he had to know that pledging his own life against carrying out Voldie's plot was not good. But at that point, he had no choice. To refuse, with the distrustful Bella present, was to invite almost certainly fatal suspicion. Especially if he'd been lying that Voldie had already told him the plot. If that was the case, it would only take one suspicious question from Bella to Voldemort to send the whole thing tumbling down.

Then there's the question of why Snape finally got the Dark Arts job. Dumbledore knew that the position was cursed (although Quirrell is going to require some explanation, after Dumbledore's assertion that no one has lasted more than a year in the position since Voldemort asked for it and was refused). I doubt very much that Dumbledore was willing to lose Snape as a teacher. So what made him finally change his mind?

I think--given that everything we've ever seen suggests that Snape tells Dumbledore everything--that Snape would have told Dumbledore about the vow. So there was every possibility that this was going to be Snape's last year at Hogwarts anyway, since he could hardly continue as a teacher if a) he were dead, from not fulfilling the oath, or b) he were accused of Dumbledore's murder. So there was no longer that reason to withhold the position from him.

Finally we come to the closing scenes. As soon as Harry and Dumbledore get back, who does Dumbledore demand to see immediately? Snape. Not Slug, who is the current Potions master, but Snape.

I don't think that Dumbledore believed for a moment that he was going to survive that poison. So even though it may have looked like he was hoping to get an antidote from Snape, I believe the real reason he needed to see Snape immediately was this: if Dumbledore were to die, and not at Draco's or Snape's hand, Snape would die, since he would be patently unable to fulfill his Vow. And if everything had gone a little better, Dumbledore might have had time to explain to Harry why this had to happen, and to try to make peace between Harry and Snape before the end. Unfortunately, he didn't have time.

Then there's the crucial moment itself. Why would Dumbledore beg Severus to spare his life at that point? There are enough DEs present to finish them off. Even if Snape, by the element of surprise, somehow managed to kill all other other DEs present, the situation would not look good. Then, even supposing that he did manage to overcome those DEs, the way down to any possible antidote that could have saved Dumbledore is blocked off by more DEs. And at this point, the poison has gone far enough that Dumbledore can't even stand, not even with his back to a wall. And if Dumbledore knows, as I postulate, about the Vow, then he knows that either Draco or Snape will have to kill him, or else Snape dies. And Dumbledore (and, I think, Severus) are categorically not willing to allow Draco to taint his soul by such an act.

I think the biggest key in this scene, though, is Dumbledore's character. Can you imagine the Albus Dumbledore we've known all this while begging for his life? Dumbledore does not fear death--we've had that pointed out over and over. Ergo, if he is not begging for his life (which I think he would not do), then he must be begging Severus for something else. And just a short while before this, Dumbledore had a little conversation with Harry about following his orders no matter what. Can you imagine just how hard it would be for a good Snape to have to kill Dumbledore?

Finally, Snape has both the opportunity and the motivation to kill Harry. We've never seen Snape angrier than he was when Harry called him a coward and tried to use his own spell on him (just like James). But he doesn't kill Harry. In fact, he stops some other DEs from doing so, with the fairly lame excuse that "LV wants to kill Harry himself." (That's certainly not the excuse that he gave Bella for not having done so, back in chapter 2. And that would have been a much more plausible reason to use on her--especially at that moment when Bella was so concerned about "LV's word is law.")

So there's my theory. I believe, even more strongly than before, that Snape is actually good. There would have been no need to create all that ambiguity about his actions if he were really evil. Before, I was about 75% sure he was good. Now I'm 99.9% sure. Ironic, considering that so many people will now be convinced that Snape is 100% evil.

My chief doubt--that .1%--comes from an interview I only very recently read in which Rowling hints that her story owes a great deal to her Christian beliefs. If Dumbledore is, in fact, the Christ figure of the story, then Snape has surely just become the Judas figure. And if that is true, and that comparison plays out in every respect of the story, then my theory is trashed and all bets are off.

All I know for sure is that I have no idea what to do with my story from this point. :~P

Verity

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Max
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:10 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 17 Location: Germany
Verity Brown wrote:

I think the biggest key in this scene, though, is Dumbledore's character. Can you imagine the Albus Dumbledore we've known all this while begging for his life? Dumbledore does not fear death--we've had that pointed out over and over. Ergo, if he is not begging for his life (which I think he would not do), then he must be begging Severus for something else.


I don't think either that Dumbledore begged for his life. But what about him begging Severus not to murder him because of the damage that does to Severus' soul?

In OotP Dumbledore told Voldemort, that there were worse things as death. He didn't explain then, but I could imagine that Dumbledore sees damaging one's soul as something worse than death. And Dumbledore being the good man he is probably doesn't want someone he tried so hard to save finally going over to the dark side ...

That's my explanation for this "Please, Severus". Another one could be that he says it in a kind of "shock" by learning, that he misplaced his trust all the time and that this is something like "Please, Severus - don't prove me so wrong!"

We will have to wait for the next book for learning it, it seems. Yet I wouldn't set my hopes too high, that Snape becomes "redeemed" then. JKR said once he'd be a truly horrible person ...
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Celeste
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:13 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 5
I agree with everything except this...

Verity Brown wrote:
I think--given that everything we've ever seen suggests that Snape tells Dumbledore everything--that Snape would have told Dumbledore about the vow.


The Lightening-Struck Tower, pg. 588, scholastic

Quote:
"Why didn't you [Dumbledore] stop me then?" Malfoy demanded.

"I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders--"

"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother--"

"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but--"


It doesn't sound to me as if he did tell Dumbledore about the Vow, because Dumbledore seemed to think Snape was spinning stories for Draco. Assuming that's true, and Snape didn't tell Dumbledore, why? Wouldn't that be his first priority as a spy? To tell about a deal that involved him having to aid Draco in killing Dumbledore or do it himself... or die?

It's this hurdle that's tripping me hardest. Otherwise, yes, the rest makes complete sense to me. Especially the last about his reaction to being called a coward, and the pain.
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Verity Brown
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:30 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA
Celeste wrote:


Quote:
"Why didn't you [Dumbledore] stop me then?" Malfoy demanded.

"I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders--"

"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother--"

"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but--"


It doesn't sound to me as if he did tell Dumbledore about the Vow, because Dumbledore seemed to think Snape was spinning stories for Draco. Assuming that's true, and Snape didn't tell Dumbledore, why? Wouldn't that be his first priority as a spy? To tell about a deal that involved him having to aid Draco in killing Dumbledore or do it himself... or die?


That passage doesn't imply to me that Dumbledore didn't know. Dumbledore obviously has given orders to Snape to watch over Draco. This would be even more important if he knew that Draco had been ordered to do something terrible that would damage his soul. And Dumbledore is correct that this is what Snape would tell him, rather than that Dumbledore was watching out for him through Snape. Since Dumbledore doesn't get to finish what he was saying there, it's hard to know what more he might have said on the subject.

This passage does beg the question of whether Draco knew about the Vow. And I don't think it's clear whether he did or didn't. Would Narcissa have told her son that if he failed, Snape would come to the rescue and complete the task? And I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

I think the reason I believe so strongly that Snape always tells Dumbledore what is going on is because of GoF. Snape went to Dumbledore about the reappearance of the Dark Mark way before he needed to have.


Verity

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Celeste
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:47 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 5
Verity Brown wrote:
This passage does beg the question of whether Draco knew about the Vow. And I don't think it's clear whether he did or didn't. Would Narcissa have told her son that if he failed, Snape would come to the rescue and complete the task? And I honestly don't know the answer to that question.


The Unbreakable Vow, pg 323, scholastic

Quote:
"Listen to me," said Snape, his voice so low now that Harry had to push his ear very hard against the keyhole to hear. "I am trying to help you. I swore to your mother I would protect you. I made the Unbreakable Vow, Draco--"

"Looks like you'll have to break it, then, because I don't need your protection! ..."


Snape never got around to explaining the third part of the Vow (if Draco failed to do the deed himself). Plus, Draco goes on to refuse to tell Snape his plans, etc. I suppose one could argue that Dumbledore was ordering Snape to watch him to find out those plans, as Snape really seems keen on learning them... but then he would be with or without Dumbledore's knowledge.

Still, Dumbledore must've had some reason for suspecting Draco of sending the necklace and poisoning the drink... Snape telling him of the Vow (or at least Voldemort's plot) seems reasonable to me.

I'm 80% convinced, I suppose.

-Celeste

ps... sorry about all the quotes... I love 'em x.x
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Verity Brown
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:14 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA
Celeste wrote:


The Unbreakable Vow, pg 323, scholastic

Quote:
"Listen to me," said Snape, his voice so low now that Harry had to push his ear very hard against the keyhole to hear. "I am trying to help you. I swore to your mother I would protect you. I made the Unbreakable Vow, Draco--"

"Looks like you'll have to break it, then, because I don't need your protection! ..."



Meep! Okay, I'd forgotten about that. I wonder why Draco was so set on not having Snape's help? Or did Draco realize already that he wouldn't be able to do it (hence all the tears), and was afraid that Snape would make him?


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Kherezae
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:52 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 29 Location: Maryland
You've thought of some things I haven't, but we're thinking along the same lines, I think, Verity. I just had a nice rant about it in my GJ (friends only and under a cut, of course). I wasn't sure he wasn't evil, but reading what you have to say is making me more and more certain that he is good. Not evil.

I'll copy my rant here... well, the Snape-relevant parts. So if it seems a little abrupt, it's because I got to Snape last, and I'd already been ranting about other parts of the book.

Quote:
And now the hard part. Snape.

I'm not convinced he's evil. I'm almost convinced, I'll admit. But there's still a nagging part of me that says there has to be more to him... There were just some seriously fishy things...

If JKR wanted him completely evil, I don't think she would have foreshadowed it so freaking obviously in just the second chapter of the book (I think it was the second?) with the Unbreakable Vow. He hesitated to accepting the vow, which may have been just out of an understandable fear... Dumbledore is a formidable opponent, and most Death Eaters would be loathe to attempt finishing him even if they found him sleeping on a bench somewhere in the open, completely vulnerable.

I think there's going to be some serious plot concerning the tie between Snape and the Malfoys, particularly Draco.

I'm not sure. Maybe Snape's got too much of that Slytherin arrogance, and he thinks Dumbledore was a necessary sacrifice so he can keep his cover as a Death Eater to work toward ridding the world of Voldemort permanently. The one thing that gives me the most pause in thinking he may not be as evil as he's made out to be is his continued absolute hatred of Harry. When Harry was chasing him... he uncharacteristically lost his cool with Harry completely... Shouting about being the Half-Blood Prince, how weak Harry is, using his own curses against him, like his father did... I'm... entirely not sure. On the one hand, maybe he's pointing out very not-subtly Harry's flaws. Harry's currently no match for Voldemort, I think, even given having all the Horcruxes destroyed. But... Maybe Snape really was just finally telling Harry exactly how he feels -- why not, after all? No hope of coming back to Hogwarts or anything, everyone's to think he's evil, whether he actually is or not... Hm.

And when he raced up into the tower. He's quick, so he may have taken in that Draco wasn't going to work up the nerve to kill Dumbledore and that they needed to get the hell out of there as fast as possible... but I think it's still fishy. Draco wasn't precisely in mortal danger. He'd probably be less likely to get killed if Snape goaded him into killing Dumbledore. Hell, he's so good at nonverbal curses, he could have freaking momentarily Imperiused Draco and had him kill Dumbledore so Voldemort would be pleased. I don't think Snape's in it to steal Draco's glory, the way he was complaining initially. So I don't know what was going on.

Dumbledore of course knew he could die. He was teaching Harry all he could to go on with to fight Voldemort should Dumbledore not be able to help him. (That sentences makes sense if you think about it hard enough XD) But maybe... maybe he guessed that he probably would die... maybe he talked to Severus about it... maybe it was part of some form of last-ditch plan...

We never did hear what had Dumbles so thoroughly convinced about Snape. I don't think it was simply being sorry over James and Lily's death. He knows Snape isn't stupid, and he knows Snape hated James with a passion -- if nothing else, his continuing grudge against Harry stood as proof he hadn't forgiven James. No, I think there was something else that had Dumbledore convinced.

Snape is their only Death Eater spy; Draco is their only Death Eater spy potential. Dumbledore wanted to save Draco, albeit not necessarily as another spy -- but that's Dumbles, and we shouldn't expect less from him. But still. Snape is awfully deadset on protecting Draco, I think more than a simple Unbreakable Vow could account for. Maybe Dumbledore found Snape's position as a spy among the Death Eaters to be more important than his own life, should it come down to it. Even if none of the Order believes Snape is on their side anymore, whether they realize it or not, they may have someone on the inside of enemy ranks working for them...

So I still think there's far more to Snape than meets the eye, or perhaps the casual read.

Anyway, simply having to find the remaining Horcruxes, destroy them, and face down Voldemort hardly seems like JKR's type of plot, especially not to finish up a series like Harry Potter. She'll undoubtedly have even more twists up her sleeve in the final book than any of us humble readers could imagine. I think Snape will be a part of it, but I can't hope to guess what sort of things JKR has planned for poor Harry and the others.

...

And also, I wish Harry would have talked to Dumbles' portrait newly on the wall of the headmaster's office. I hate how he doesn't think of little things like that. I think portrait-Dumbles might have had some serious advice for him. Might even have had something to say about Snape. I don't know, since there's no telling how heavy an imprint of the wizard those portraits actually contain... but... I wish Harry'd talked to him. Jeezus.


The '...' is where I cut out a couple unrelating paragraphs. But yeah, those were my initial thoughts. Some of it is unclear and it's not as well-thought-out as the arguments here -- but like I said, it was just my initial thoughts after reading the book. Eh. I was ranting, not going for clarity, my apologies.

Anyway, as for Rowling's Christian ideals -- Dumbledore isn't necessarily a Christ figure. She doesn't have to have one. The strong good is preferable to evil theme, the breaking earthly rules when there's something bigger in the balance, the general 'do-your-best-to-overcome-evil' theme is Christian enough, I suppose. Some Christians might say having a Christ figure is ridiculous, since there was and only can be one Christ. But I'm just babbling. Argh.
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Kismet
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:27 am Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 34
I think that the most telling part of the Snape/Harry fight scene was Snape's vehement denial that he wasn't a coward, especially as Harry notices that Snape looks anguished when he said that. I don't think he was all stricken because Harry was calling him names, I think that he was carrying out Dumbledore's orders and did the most brave and heart wrenching act that he's had to do.

As for JKR's Christian beliefs, there's a lot of redemption stories in the Bible and Jesus certainly believed in giving second chances. Or perhaps he's like Judas in "The Last Temptation of Christ" where it was his job to betray Jesus so that Jesus could die on the cross and save mankind (only Jesus mucked it up by listening to the devil and giving in to temptataion and living.)
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JackieJLH
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:10 am Reply with quote
Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA
I have to agree with Verity, I am now almost completely certain that Snape is NOT evil, even though this entire book seemed geared towards convincing us that he is.

Another point that I wanted to bring up is the fight between Dumbledore and Snape that Hagrid overheard. Now, of course this was meant to cast doubt on Snape - we are rarely treated to conversations that don't include Harry unless they are important, and more often than not, things as ambiguous as this second hand glimpse of their conversation are there to lead us to wrong assumptions.

I think there was definately more to that conversation than we are made aware of...Hagrid said that Snape had said that Dumbledore (and I'm going from memory here, because I'm at work and my book is at home) was taking advantage, and that perhaps he (Snape) didn't want to do 'it' anymore. The 'it' was never explained. Dumbledore then tells him, quite firmly, that he already agreed to do 'it', and that is what he will do.

I think that Snape is second-thinking his Vow. He wants to break it, keep Draco from killing Albus, and refuse to kill Albus himself, effectively ending his life. He thinks that Albus is taking advantage of him, asking him to do something that should not be asked of anyone - Albus wants Snape to kill him, should such a situation arise where it becomes necessary. Snape's 'it' that he doesn't want to do anymore? I'm thinking that 'it' is living.

Snape wants to break his Vow, and die in the process. However, Dumbledore tells him that he WILL go through with it as planned. And of course, he's a little angry with Snape. He's counting on Snape to follow the plans, ensuring that someone 'good' is in Voldemorts ranks, and that Draco does not do something that can not be taken back and will push him one step closer to the darkness - commit murder.

I think that this conversation is very important in proving Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, simply because of everything that is IMPLIED, and not what is actually said.

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I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.
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Two Methyloctane
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:08 am Reply with quote
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada
I agree. Despite the sequence of events, it was really difficult to find any shred of pure evil in Snape. I think, like it's been mentioned, he had a hard time doing what he did, and was angry simply because no one trusted him except Dumbledore, hence why he left, because he knew he'd be hunted down and killed.

I also think his escaping was to protect Draco. At Spinner's End, Snape was almost warm with Narcissa. I think, despite him being on Dumbledore's side, he still appreciates his friends, and I think his efforts to protect Draco were honest, not just a consequence of the Vow.

So, I'm hoping Snape finds a nice place to hide out and works on bringing Voldemort down from the inside.
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Owlbait
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:27 am Reply with quote
Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92
I'm pretty stricken, but I'm not giving up my membership in the "Severus is good" club any time soon.

I'm going to put in my 2 Knuts on a few of the arguments above:

Severus is clearly the sort to do what has to be done, no matter how terrible. He knew his duty and he did it.

No way Dumbledore is pleading for his life. I don't think he's pleading for Sev to leave himself unstained either. How unstained can he be at this point anyway? He wouldn't be afraid to take another burden on his soul, if Dumbledore asked it.

I'm sure he did tell Dumbledore about the Vow, but Dumbledore would not want Draco to know he knew. Draco may have enough Occlumency to block Severus, who has not been portrayed in canon as an adept Legilimens, only a competent one, but he would not be able to decieve Voldemort. It would be essential that Voldemort does not discover Severus passed that information to Dumbledore.

I'm still sold on the theory that he cared for Lily, and that is the importance of Harry's eyes to the story. That is neither proven nor disproven by Dumbledore's account of his change of heart, but it looks promising. I guess we'll have to wait another two years to find out.

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anirameg
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:36 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 9
abcd


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NeoQBirdie
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:46 am Reply with quote
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 11 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
I have to agree that after this book, even with all the slurs against him, that Snape is definitely good.

My exact thought when I read about Snape just walking up and killing Dumbledore was that he had to have been under orders from Dumbledore himself. They both MUST have agreed that Draco absolutely could not pollute his soul by carrying out his task against Dumbledore. This left them with a choice: either Snape of Dumbledore would have to die to accomplish this. I'm so sure that Dumbledore was ready to sacrifice himself not just to protect the lives of Snape and Draco, but also because he couldn't have Harry relying on his power forever. Harry had to learn how to walk by his own strength. I'm willing to bet that Dumbledore knew his death would galvanize Harry to his task.

I feel positive that Snape informed Dumbledore of the Unbreakable Vow within an hour of making it. That is why Dumbledore can so easily dismiss Harry's suspicions of Malfoy after the necklace incident. He already knows that Draco is trying to kill him.

Rowling herself even shows us directly before that Dumbledore is totally willing to order his underlings to harm him (as he did with Harry and the poison). When I think of the feelings that must have been boiling through Snape as he's forced to kill the only person in the world who trusts him completely, it's not surprizing that he completely looses it and yells at Harry, who he doesn't harm, even though he COMPLETELY DISPISES HIM. Snape could have won eternal power with Voldemort by killing Harry there. You can clearly see what an amazing dueler Snape is in this scene. But he doesn't kill him.

Severus Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, not Voldemort.

[edit]

I am putting this in because I forgot earlier. It has been mentioned that Snape is incenced that he is called cowardly by Harry. It's so cunningly obvious.

He thinks himself brave. Bravery. A Griffindor trait, not a Slytherin one. Bravery is a mark of all those who follow Dumbledore. Harry says several times out loud that he is Dumbledore's man, through and through. I think Snape feels this way also, silently, and with all of his being.


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Verity Brown
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:46 am Reply with quote
Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Midwest USA
I think what really gets to me (apart from the possibility that I'm wrong about this) is that the "Snape is evil, we knew it all along" folks are going to have a field day with this book. As if Snape fans don't take enough guff already.

My little paranoid impulse is asking: does she really hate Severus-fandom and Severus-fics enough to have made it this bad specifically in order to kill them? My rational mind says: no, of course not, she's planned this all along and that's why she's been warning us not to like him too well.

Anyway, it is unpleasant to feel that even the author hates your favorite character (and you, by extension, for caring so much about him). :~(


Verity

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Owlbait
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:55 am Reply with quote
Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 92
Quote:
I don't know about that. He seems to be very able to meet those eyes with pure hatred and I don't recall Snape mentioning the eyes or in anyway indicating that he noticed them, but perhaps I missed something.


It gets mentioned so much that Harry looks exactly like his father, except for his mother's eyes. It has to be important. I can't see any other reason than that someone cared about her. Sev being the obvious candidate.

Harry still mostly resembles James, and I'm sure Sev despises him thoroughly.

Quote:
I thought it was interesting that JKR had Snape look at Dumbledore with hatred right before he killed him, but perhaps that was him simply preparing himself for the Killing Curse.


"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatrd etched in the harsh lines of his face."

She did not write that "he looked at Dumbledore with revulsion and hatred". The actual line is ambiguous and we have to assume deliberately so. My take on it is he feels revulsion and hatred for himself, his own past actions got him into this horrible situation.


Last edited by Owlbait on Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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