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<  Personae  ~  Hermione Granger

Diana
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:59 am Reply with quote
Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116
I think that Hermione is probably the hardest character to nail down in fiction when attempting to stick to canon. I would even go so far as to say she is more difficult than Snape.

The biggest problem with those who attempt to write Hermione is that they equate book smarts and cleverness with intellectual standing. Hermione is book smart. Hermione is also very clever. Hermione is not intellectual. The canon Hermione is also insecure in some aspects. I do not think that it stems from being a muggleborn. I think that Hermione came to Hogwarts as an insecure child in a sense that her drive to learn was off putting towards other children. This is a common thing among children of intellectuals and academics, I speak from experience. I would even go so far as to guess that Hermione's parents probably placed a strong emphasis on her study habits at a young age. Of course this isn't directly supported in canon and as such is only speculation on my part.

As for Hermione being a nasty little girl. I simply do not see her that way. I do see her as an annoying child, but not nasty or mean spirted. It is her cleverness that makes her appear that way, and sometimes her cleverness gets her into a bit of trouble.

Some people see her in the nasty child light because they believe that what she does is, mostly, for personal gain. I would also like to point out though that without Hermione's clever help, Harry and Ron would still be down in the bowels of Hogwarts looking for the Stone.

In their first year it was Hermione who got Harry past the flames. There was really nothing for her to gain personally in helping Harry in year one. She gained friendship yes, but besides that she didn't gain anything else.

In year two she may have had a bit more invested interest, but she wasn't the only who was affected/would have become affected by the Chamber being opened. Who do you suspect the basilik would have went after next once it had effectively wiped out all of the muggleborns? Half-bloods perhaps? There goes Harry Potter himself.

In year three there was absolutely nothing for her to gain by helping Harry. Sirius was not after her in any way. Her only connection was through Harry.

In their fourth year she gave Rita Skeeter exactly what she deserved. What adult in their right mind writes about the love lives of fourteen year olds for the newspaper? I find the rivarly between Rita Skeeter and Hermione particularly ironic. Rita was caught up in her own cleverness so much that it took another clever individual to get one over on her. Hermione is more like Rita than I'm sure she herself would ever care to admit. The difference between the two being that Rita is an adult and should know better, Hermione is still a child and has much to learn.

In year five is where we see Hermione's cleverness start to come back at her for the first time. It is also the first time that we really see Hermione admit that she herself does not have all the answers. She is the one who asked Harry for help, she suggested the DA. I happen to think that the curse was a pretty smart course of action, but that is just me. Had they not been alerted in time of what was happening Hermione would have simply been one in a long line of students booted from the school. As for Umbridge, she was a truly horrible woman, what Hermione dished out to her pales in comparison to what she truly deserved.

I find it a bit ironic in the HP fandom how some people view certain characters. Hermione is by far one of the most popular characters in the books. She is also one of the most hated. In comparison, we have Snape, who is in the same boat as Hermione. They are both flawed characters, yet where Hermione is often placed in an unflattering light (with respect to her standing in canon), Snape is glorified. Both of these interpretations are seriously off base.
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Razzberry
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:41 am Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82
Quote:
I think that Hermione is probably the hardest character to nail down in fiction when attempting to stick to canon. I would even go so far as to say she is more difficult than Snape.


I think that part of this is because of the innate difficulty of pairing the two of them. I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER read a Snape/Hermione fic where one or the other stuck to canon through the entire fic. I have read some where the changes were well-presented and believable, and a whole lot more where these two have simply been shoved into their assigned roles to fit a romance concept. But one of them has to give.

Either Snape has to soften, or Hermione has to toughen. Hermione has to grow up, Snape has to learn to express emotion, etc etc etc. And, like I said, I've seen the occasional fic that made these changes happen over enough time that it was believable and that I could accept that the two of them could change to that point, but if you are talking strictly about canon, they do not go together, if for no other reason than because as of the end of OotP she is sixteen and he is... what? 37? And aside from the pedaphilia issue, that particular block of 20 years is fairly significant in terms of maturity (note the blatant understatement).

So, in order to make the two of them 'work' together, authors have no choice but to wreck one or the other to some extent, to drag them VERY far from canon and deposit them ten years later, or the death of all loved ones later or a mind-altering potion accident later. It's a necessity (and again, I reiterate that I am not saying that it is never done in a believable manner, only that every SS/HG fic I've ever read that didn't make me roll my eyes at it accomplished this feat.)

I have seen Hermione done very canonically (is that a word? if not, it is now.) I have seen Snape done very canonically. I've even seen them done very canonically in the same fic. I have never seen them done canonically in the same fic wherein they were in love with each other, probably because if I found an SSHG fic that started when she was still a fifth year student I'd be hitting the back button before you could say 'statutory rape'.

The problem with Hermione is that she does not fit the mold for the romance heroine, and trying to force her into that is like trying to put the proverbial round peg in a square hole. If it fits, you have gaps. If you manage to force the peg to conform to the hole, you no longer have a round peg. That's all there is to it, bottom line, full stop, end of story.

The stories that do NOT try to force Hermione into that role, but allow her to grow and evolve into a woman of her own right tend to be, in my opinion, much better. Most authors, however, are not willing to give a character ten or fifteen years of development before introducing her into a story. Some people will give her five years or so, but even then, there's a logistical challenge-- I've never seen a Snape written into the body of a story (in other words, not the epilogue) who was more than... 42 I think. Regardless, I've never seen a fic about 50-year-old Severus and 30-year old Hermione coming together. I don't know if it's because we want Hermione to be young and innocent or if we don't like the idea of Snape being more than 40. Or, more likely, because those of us who read romance novels know that the herione is always 18 and the hero is 36 (or close to those ages). Which means, in turn, that if Snape and Hermione are going to fill those roles, they have to do so pretty much as soon as she's a seventh year. And then we get back to development.

There is a limit to how much a person can grow over the course of a couple of years. Unless there is some life-altering event, Hermione at 18 is going to be a child still. And when I say life-altering, I mean the life defining moments. Getting married, having children, living on one's own, entering a career (NOT a 'job'-- a 'career')... Until she has at least one of these things under her belt, she's a kid. Maybe a kid who fought Voldemort, but a kid (in that case, a kid who needs to be sitting in therapy-- don't get me started on these kids fighting big bad evil guys).

So, the point I have reiterated about fifteen times so far? I don't think it's so much that it's difficult to write canon Hermione as it is that it's difficult to write canon Hermione in the role most fanfic casts her in. She doesn't make a romance heroine without significant development, and significant development is a nice way of saying 'incredibly ooc, canon-wise.'

And hey. That's part of the point of fanfic. Let her develop, but make it realistic and give the poor girl a few years of freedom before she gets locked into a life-long relationship with (fill in the blank, probably Snape in this group.)

My two knuts.

Jen
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anna_kat
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:11 am Reply with quote
Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33
Quote:

Oh, but try to have her make mistakes that a 17-18 year old would make, or have her NOT be on the emotional or mental level of a 30 year old, and you'd better wear your asbestos pants. Well, at least from some quarters.


That is much of the problem with Hermione's characterisation. Authors who attempt to write her as a teenager, write her as a 17-18 year old or worse, they write her the way they would have liked to have been at age 17, or as they have been at that age. The mistakes she makes should be her own, mistakes she is likely to make.

Quote:
Let her develop, but make it realistic and give the poor girl a few years of freedom before she gets locked into a life-long relationship


Yes, please.
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Snape Fan
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:00 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29
I agree with what's been said, but when I'm reading fanfic I'm willing to overlook things like her age, his age, etc., for the reason that it is fanfic. I think I'm one of the few that can see book Snape and book Hermione together in later years, but in fanfic I like to see her just with Snape and no one else. I don't want to see her with a few years under her belt, because that's when she becomes the all powerful, all knowing Hermione that is second only to Merlin it seems. I know that she should develop slowly, that she needs to grow, but that has the pitfalls too.

As for letting her make her own mistakes, well, only JKR knows the real Hermione. I think authors have to write her as they were back then. There just isn't enough information about her yet, so you have to take some real life experiences and give them to Hermione.
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azazello
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:29 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK
Quote:
I've never seen a Snape written into the body of a story (in other words, not the epilogue) who was more than... 42 I think.


In my big WIP he starts as 40. By the end of it he will be c. 55.


Quote:
Regardless, I've never seen a fic about 50-year-old Severus and 30-year old Hermione coming together. I don't know if it's because we want Hermione to be young and innocent or if we don't like the idea of Snape being more than 40.


Wrote one of those too. In it he was nearing 60, she was about 40. They get together after she is divorced.

You need to look around a bit more. Wink

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Razzberry
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:08 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82
See, Az, you and... *is so bad with names.* Veresna Ussep? You two have the oldest Snapes I've ever seen in a romance situation. I confess to not having read BYA because I have enough WIPs I'm trying to follow and they're really starting to blend together at this point, so I'm limiting myself to finished fics.

And, really, Ashwinder is huge, and I'm not going to even pretend to have read everything on it. I wish there were a 'best of the best' kind of page... because I don't know what's good and what isn't, and in all honesty, so much of the ship freaks me out for various reasons that I tend to avoid the whole thing.

I will also admit to not being terribly wideley-read on any HP fanfic. I only read the books last summer, and it was mid-July before I ever ventured into fanfic. Not knowing names and reputations (or half the abbreviations/acronyms) I'm a bit at a loss for where to look for the creme de la creme so to speak.

But, of the maybe 50 or so longer fics that I've read (longer being over 20k words I'd say) there are a lot of things I haven't come across, and given that I don't know anyone and have cast my nets fairly broadly, and given how many I've hit back button on after reading the first paragraph, I'd confidently say that the VAST majority of romances with Snape portray him between 35 and 40.

I've read a few one-shots that had him substantially older, but by and large, Hero!Snape seems to fall into the late 30s age range.

But then, I'd also say that you are not a writer who is indicative of the 'majority' of HP fanfic. You're not even indicative of the majority of SH fanfic. Yours is one name I do recognize, and some day intend to read every word you've written, if for no other reason than because you write on the edge and I appreciate that.

But find five fics you *haven't* written where Snape is over 40 for the majority of the fic. Given how popular he is, it shouldn't be hard if it were common.

Jen
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liquidscissors
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:02 am Reply with quote
Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164
My Queerditch arc finishes with Snape being in his sixties. By Smoke he's in his mid-fifties.
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azazello
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:31 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK
See, given the fact that we know from canon that Wizards have far greater longevity than Muggles, we can write an older Snape who can still perform.

I'm personally uncomfortable with Snape getting it on with a still at school Hermione. I've only read one fic that really looks at the implications of that, and makes it work (Letter from Exile). Therefore, I'm more interested in Hermione having a relationship with Snape post school.

Apologies, this "Hermione" thread seems to have been hijacked into an SS/HG thread. Anyway.

There's another strong reason for the post school relationship. I personally cannot see Snape getting seriously involved with anyone in his present (in canon) status. He's almost certainly a spy. His existence is dangerous and precarious. He would not therefore risk any woman becoming a hostage to fortune (and bear in mind he may have been married and lost a woman - we don't know. Was the mysterious "Florence" Snape's wife? Did death of Florence make him change sides?) and therefore I strongly believe he is alone as much through choice as anything else. Any posited relationship with Hermione would (in my opinion) play better post struggle.

Secondly, smart as Ms Granger is, I do not see her as being all that mature. She'd have to mature to attract him.

However, add the concept that Wizards live longer and you have a great premise for an older pairing, post war.

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Snape Fan
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:18 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29
While I don't think Snape would ever go for a Hermione that was still in school - I still confess to enjoy reading about it. And Hermione isn't all that mature yet. At times she shows more maturity than her friends, but she is a typical teenager, except we don't get to know yet if she wonders about her hair, make-up, acne, weight, etc. That is where I think she would focusing most of her attention outside of studies. Not on whether Professor Snape would make good shag material. I think at this point she is probably disgusted by the thought of her teachers even having a private life.
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RachelW
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:19 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas
azazello wrote:
See, given the fact that we know from canon that Wizards have far greater longevity than Muggles, we can write an older Snape who can still perform.

However, add the concept that Wizards live longer and you have a great premise for an older pairing, post war.


In current canon (book 5) he's about 36?...and Hermione is 16? That's a 20 year gap. Not too much, I think. And, yes, as Wizards live a lot longer than Muggles, it would be comprable to maybe a 10 year age gap.

I wonder too if some of the younger parts of the fandom have a hard time imagining a guy over the age of 40 in 'that' way. Even muggles can perform into their 50's and 60's and with the advent of viagra, levitra, and so forth into their 70's and beyond, though going on stuff I've seen some say, they think people just sort of shrivel up after 45, which is silly. I wonder if for some of the teens who read HG/SS if the age difference is some kind of alluring squick factor as they think a large age gap is anything over five years (a lot of the anti HG/SS shippers tend to say stuff like "ewwww, he's OOOLLLD, that's disgusting"). I'd like to see more older Hermione stories out there where she's in her 30's and he's in his 50's, but there's not a lot of that.
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Razzberry
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:35 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82
[url]I wonder too if some of the younger parts of the fandom have a hard time imagining a guy over the age of 40 in 'that' way[/url]

Yeah. I think that was where I was going, Rachel, but didn't come right out and say it. And, in all honesty, I'd have to say that while a 20-year age difference is not an insurmountable obstacle (I mean, really, if I said that I'd be up for a hypocrite of the year award-- I don't even talk to men who aren't at least ten years older than me because I can't handle the immaturity of my peer group most of the time), there is DEFINITELY a difference between a pairing between a 20-year old and a 40 year old and a pairing between a 30-year old and a 50 year old. The older she gets, the less of an issue age is until it disappears all together. But when you're talking a teenager with someone who is 20 years older... more than twice her age... there is a very definite hurdle there.

But, anyway, when i started this whole line of thought, it was really in reference to Hermione's age, which often seems to be capped by a general reluctance to write an older Snape, and since those two are so often paired together. And THAT was a point made in reference to writing her 'older' than she is. Writing an 18-year old Hermione with all the trimmings of a 30-year-old. Instead of just making Hermione be 30, I have seen more of a tendency towards making her into a very mature 18 and letting Snape be in his 30s still.

And, in the SSHG fic I have going, that is probably the number one criticism I'm getting-- 'Hermione is more mature than that'. To which I say 'no she isn't. She's 18. She's prone to hysterical outbursts. She thinks she knows everything and is very confident in her knowledge. She has a know-it-all attitude combined with the general teenage presumption that by the time you hit 12, you know everything you need to know and the rest is just a matter of cramming for the next algebra test.' But I keep getting people telling me that she's being 'too immature', and all that means in context is that she hasn't made the connection that something stupid and humiliating that she did might have enormous ramifications for someone else.

It's as though people are wanting (and expecting) the rational abilities of an adult in the body of a teenager. If I wanted an adult Hermione, I'd have *written* an adult Hermione. I didn't, though. So I didn't Wink

Anyway, I apologize for pulling the conversation towards SSHG-- I really meant it more in context of Hermione's character and what I have observed in SSHG (and RLHG and various other random things that combine Hermione with someone besides Ron or Harry) fics.
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Snape Fan
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:01 am Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29
I'm wondering what kind of Hermione we will find in HBP. She doesn't seem to have any close girlfriends, except for Ginny. Will that change as she starts her sixth year at Hogwarts? Will more boys show an interest in her? Is she going to start favoring one subject over all the rest?

We didn't see much of her at the end of OoTP. What does the summer hold for her? Is Dumbledore going to let her and Harry and Ron in on some Order business?
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Mizzlsd
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:15 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 10 Dec 2004 Posts: 8 Location: Torbay
I'm not going to interfere with the SS/HG debate (Though personally I love HG/SS fanfictions) however this is my interpretation of Hermione Granger.

Her parents are both dentists. Therefore her parents should be quite studious to get into a medical profession, this would have passed on to Hermione.

I agree that there is a difference between intelligence and intellectuality. But I do dis-agree with the fact that teenagers can't be intellectual. Is there a certain age at when people become intellectual? 22, 23?. Sure our bodies are experience a dramatic change but some of us do tend to branch out and read up on thoughts of others. I am not a very studious person but I am good in conversation. However Hermione does seem to be an extremely studious person.

She seems the sort of person who could get into a deep conversation regarding Goblin Wars or the relevance of Divination but I don't think she would fare so well in a conversation about, well like we are having, how is this person written in a book.

She's a very technical person. If it says it in the book, then it's done so in the book.

Thats possibly why she exceeds in Potions, she studies the instructions, she follows the instructions.

She does tend to break rules, but only for her benefit. The DA?

She's well spoken, and is not a typical "girlie-girl", which we see in GOF, where she does dress up for the dance but then says that she can't really be bothered with it all the time.

She is cultural, again in GOF where she explains the french food to Ron.

But this is possibly all wrong and I am sorry if you have to retaliate at me Sad.

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Diana
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:24 am Reply with quote
Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116
Quote:
I agree that there is a difference between intelligence and intellectuality

That would be a difference between 'smart' and intelligence.

Hermione is not an intellect, she is a smart and I would even stretch it to say intelligent teenage girl, but she is not an academic or an intellect. In order to become those things you have to master whatever field you show a strong interest or desire to persue.

McGonagall is an academic in the field of Transfiguration. Hermione, while good at Transfiguration, is not.

Snape is an academic in the field of Potions. Again, while Hermione may be an excellent student in the subject, she is not a master.

Quote:
She is cultural, again in GOF where she explains the french food to Ron.

Visiting France and experiencing some limited French cuisine does not make Hermione super-cultural. She has experienced culture, yes, but that does not mean she has a vast and overwhelming knowledge of such things. Being able to tell the difference between a ham sandwich and cheese sandwich in French dining does not mean she has a grasp on the French culture.

Quote:
Is there a certain age at when people become intellectual? 22, 23?.

Ahh. Yes, in fact there is an age, and while it is undefined for some people, Hermione has not yet reached that age. It isn't necessarily a numbered age per say, but there is a point when you either 'get it' or you don't. Hermione is able to read knowledge, memorize it, and regurgitate it, but not fully understand it. True intellect comes from not only being able to memorize and recite information back word for word from a book, but also from understanding that information. Hermione has the book smarts, but she doesn't have the understanding needed to be an intellect--yet!

Diana
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Iseult
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:28 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 20 Location: Newcastle, Australia
I agree with all those who state that Hermione is studious.

While there is absolutely no basis for calling Hermione a genius, I do think that there is a certain basis for stating that she is intelligent.

Intelligence differs from intellect. Boring swot quote from A dictionary of modern English usage "While a intelligent person is merely one who is not stupid or slow-witted, an intellectual person is one in whom the part played by the mind ... is greater than the average man [sic]

I was about to argue that Hermione is intelligent but not intellectual. I am going to argue that she is intelligent but there is a sparking of intellect in Hermione. This is evidenced by her solving the puzzle in first year, identifying the basilisk in book2, identifying Lupin as a werewolf (or maybe that's my imagination running wild), she tutors Harry in GOF and she develops the magical coin in OOTP.

All but tutoring Harry are examples of a synthesis of knowledge. Book smarts are reading a book and comprehending the meaning of the words but do not imply a real understanding. Intelligence is really understanding that knowledge and intellect is the synthesis of knowledge into a further understanding.

And here I logged onto this forum to argue that she is not an intellectual!

My view: she isn't yet but there is a great likelihood that she will develop intellectually.

Hermione is not likely to be an all round genius but gifted in a particular area, right now it looks like it will have something to do with logic and the application of magic.

This is tempered by the fact that Hermione is not known to have any siblings and is the child of parents that are likely to have a decent income (though they may run a dental clinic for the underpriveleged for all we know). Only children generally start to read earlier, have more parental support for education and often more money for extra learning opportunities. If Hermione's family is middle class this also influence her access to educational resources.

It probably also explains why she thought she could single handedly free the house elves. Obviously the Hogwarts library on is lacking on muggle political books dealing with emancipation, the abolishment of slavery and revolutionary movements. Her intellect obviously secondary to her emotions on that issue (rightly so).

Heermione is not a full blown intellectual. Nor an academic. Nor a genius.

Tertiary education does not make anyone an intellectual, academic or genius. I think you have to be relatively intelligent to get there and stay there but until intellectuals are generally the people teaching university students or doing ground breaking research. Not your average unviversity student. Though some university students are intellectual. Some are even geniuses, but very very few.

So I'd even disagree that there is enough information to argue that

Quote:
McGonagall is an academic in the field of Transfiguration. Hermione, while good at Transfiguration, is not.

Snape is an academic in the field of Potions. Again, while Hermione may be an excellent student in the subject, she is not a master.


Snape and McGonnagal are experts in their field, magically gifted and able to teach students in the secondary school system. Teachers generally recieve a tertiary education (making an unfounded Muggle comparison) which maked them educated not intellectual. Were all of your high school teachers intellectual? Probably not some were likely to be but others were not. Being an intellectual is not the highest priority for teaching, an ability to impart knowledge and skills to others is (and I am not deriding teachers).

Therefore Hermione's parents are probably intelligent not necessarily intellectual or academic.

Hermione the potential intellectual (with some basis). I hate it when I end up writing something that is differs from my intent.

I quoted a dictionary. Embarassed How eighth grade debating team - I hated those stupid quotes!
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