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< Personae ~ Hermione Granger |
| RachelW |
 Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:04 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 64
Location: The Republic of Texas
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Hey, looks like we need more discussion topics. So, how about Hermione? She's the most oft 'Sued' of the canon charachters, and one of the more difficult to get right.
She carries within her, IMO, an interresting duality. On the one hand, she insists on sticking to the rules, often holding it over Harry and Ron...and on the other hand, she's more than willing to break rules to achieve her aims. I think had she not been Muggleborn, she'd have had a good chance in Slytherin. She also shows signs of ruthlesness...espically in OTP when she charmed the paper to give anyone who reveals the DA boils, and then again when she tossed Umbridge to the Centaurs. Of course, then there was keeping Rita Skeeter in a jar all summer long between her fourth and fifth years...as Ron says; "Brilliant, but scary."
However, deep down she can be insecure and seeks approval of her elders...I think she's often considered super strong and super smart with nearly no faults (or her only fault being bossy to Harry and Ron). I think her insecurity drives her to suceed.
So, what are your thoughts or disagreements about Hermione? |
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| Metamuse |
| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:20 am |
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Location: USA
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My question about Hermione Granger is why wasn't she placed in Ravenclaw? She doesn't seem to fit in at all with Gryffindor compared to the others really.
But I agree with you, Rachel, if Hermione wasn't Muggleborn I think she would've stood a good chance in Slytherin. |
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| Snape's Patronus |
| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:01 pm |
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Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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Location: Inside my own head.
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Maybe the Sorting Hat decided not to place Hermione in Ravenclaw precisely because she is so stereotypically Ravenclaw.
As studious and bookish as she is, it seems like she would be a natural in that house. But if she went into Ravenclaw, it might have maximized those strengths until they became liabilities. Perhaps the Hat decided she needed to be in a house that emphasized taking bold action, not just relying on book-learning. In order to make the most of her talents she needs to learn to get "out of her head," once in a while, and Gryffindor is the place that will let her do just that.
I see "Ravenclaw" Hermione as being in the same position as Neville Longbottom. Poor Neville, it seems, would have been a much easier fit in Hufflepuff. He's not only timid, but has to work so much harder than anyone else to learn new things. But he needs to develop his courage more than anything, so, like Hermione, the Hat put him where he would be pushed to do that. |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:22 am |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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The Sorting Hat suggested Ravenclaw for Hermione - as evidenced in OOTP, Page 353, UK Hardback Edition (Chapter 19, The Lion and the Serpent).
Quote: "You can do a Protean Charm?" said Terry Boot.
"Yes," said Hermione.
"But that's ... NEWT standard, that is," he said weakly.
"Oh," said Hermione, trying to look modest. "Oh ... well... yes, I suppose it is."
"How come you're not in Ravenclaw?" he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. "With brains like yours?"
"Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my sorting," said Hermione brightly, "but it decided on Gryffindor at the end."
The Hat chooses your most defining characteristic when assigning you to a house. The most defining Ravenclaw characteristic is brain - not necessarily intellect (intellect is not mentioned in canon). The most defining Gryffindor characteristic is courage. The Slytherin one is ambition. Not cunning, or slyness, but ambition. Hufflepuffs are loyal and hardworking, but the determining factor for Hufflepuff is that you do not fit the profile for the others. Hufflepuff is open admission.
So why did Hermione not end up in Ravenclaw? I suspect because like Harry, she chose or asked to be in Gryffindor. She'd read "Hogwarts a History" and would therefore have had a clear idea, which house she wanted to be in.
Additionally, I do not believe there is any evidence other than wishful thinking on the part of fic writers to show that Hermione is an intellectual. True intellectuals read widely, have a range of interests, for their own sakes. They have cultural tastes, which they have developed over time and on their own. I see no canon evidence that Hermione reads anything other than school books, and her aim is not learning for its own sake, but top marks. She's the school swot, not Camille Paglia, and I find attempts by fanfic writers to make her into some bona fide intellectual polymath amusing at best, and deluded at worst. Which it is depends on how irritated the writer has made me for other reasons. Intellectual Hermione is merely Mary Sue masquerading as a canon character.
I think there are strong clues in canon that it is the individual who determines for themselves which is their own strongest characteristic. There is a theme in the books, usually spoken by Dumbledore that our choices are what make all the difference. We can chose to do good. We can also choose to be evil. Please remember,that whatever fic writers say to the contrary, this is not a morally relative universe, but a morally absolute one. Where good is good. There's no "greater good" coming into play, here. And Dumbledore is not some cynical chessmaster, either. He's a good man, no ifs, no buts.
Hermione chose to be in Gryffindor. Her bravery outweighs her brains. It's more core to her own value system. A group of brave heroes need someone of their number who can think strategically and tactically. She fits the bill. She's more herself when in dangerous situations, and she's actually less snippy, too. She can actually be quite irritating (bossy, show offish, etc), and yet in the climax of each book, she's generally an asset to the team, thoughful and encouraging.
The bravery is more important. She's clever, because I suspect JKR wanted to have a girl as the clever one. She's also somewhat based on the author's perception of herself as she would like to be. |
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| zyliel |
| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:29 pm |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Location: Sydney
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I'm sorry, I'm not the best writer of essays or arguments, and only fifteen, so this won't be half as eloquent as everyone else…
On the subject of her sorting, I am most convinced about the theory that her values mirrored Gryffindor’s, and that she chose her own house, but probably wasn’t muttering “Gryffindor or you’ll be sorry, little hat,” under her breath. That is, I think she let the Hat sort her, knowing she was a Gryffindor, or, possibly, Ravenclaw, if the Hat chose to be shallow.
There are a few points to note, however:
i) "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things - friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be careful!" (page 208 Australian version PS). This clearly demonstrates that she holds Gryffindor’s values as her own. It is possible that she has changed due to, or since, her sorting, but I think the next point puts that out of the question.
ii) Even before she got to Hogwarts, she wanted to be in Gryffindor. On the train she tells everyone who will listen, "...I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best...”. Coincidentally, she supposed "Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad," and the hat considered sorting her there, too.
iii) Hermione would fit in all of the houses. She is brave, clever, loyal and hardworking, ambitious, and at times cunning. Obviously, Slytherin would not work too well; she’s muggleborn. But as we’ve seen above, she already knew which house she wanted to be in, and she was intelligent enough to choose well and know what she wanted, so the Sorting Hat didn’t have much to decide. In the book, although we cannot be sure exactly how much time it took for her to be sorted, it certainly looks and feels like a short time.
Sadly, Snape’s Patronus, I’m not convinced that your theory could work. The Hat’s job is to sort the students the way the four founders would have (as outlined in his song). As McGonagall says, “your house will be something like your family within Hogwarts,” and like a ‘family’, they all have things in common, as though they shared genetic material or a last name. Furthermore, it is very hard to change – truly change – people; I do not think that the Hat would attempt it by sorting the less brave students into Gryffindor, or the less intelligent into Ravenclaw. What I am getting at here, is, if the Hat put everyone into the house that benefited them the most – their polar opposite if you will – then there would be no one to influence them to change. I also think that the Hat looks at everything, and that Neville is perfectly suited to Gryffindor. His parents are in St. Mungo’s, he has to put up with his grandmother, he’s been thrown off piers and out windows – and you say he isn’t courageous? He isn’t especially loyal, and were he a hard worker, he wouldn’t be relying on Hermione in Potions to stop himself from blowing up. Not really a Hufflepuff, wouldn’t you say? And he’s clearly not Ravenclaw or Slytherin either. No, I’m afraid it just doesn’t work. Great idea, though. And if you can see how it could still work, at least with Hermione, please explain what I’ve missed, ‘kay? Please?
Azazello, do not rush to eliminate as many possibilities as you can. While, certainly, Hermione doesn’t seem to be particularly intellectual at the moment – at least by your strict definition – that doesn’t mean she can’t become intellectual. How many twelve to seventeen year olds do you know that are intellectual? I don’t know anyone who’s intellectual – at least not by that definition, and not at that age. If crafted with caution and skill, almost anything’s possible - be careful of your own Occam’s Razor.
For me, the most confusing thing is her sudden maturity, I might even say, Slytherin-ish behaviour, and all up the enormous change in her between books four and five. Or all the books and book five. It’s so reminiscent of Mary-Sue that it sounds like her holiday reading included Freud and Nancy Wake, for heaven’s sake! Does anyone have an explanation, or something else to say about it? Am I simply mistaken? (I really need to get around to re-reading the fifth book; it’s clouding my judgment on characters)
((Er...formatting posts is allowed, isn't it? Different colours and sizes and all? It's just that I can't see any other posts that are formatted...)) |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:03 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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Location: Northern UK
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Quote: How many twelve to seventeen year olds do you know that are intellectual? I don’t know anyone who’s intellectual – at least not by that definition, and not at that age.
None. Which is the point, I am trying to make when I criticise fics that attempt to depict Hermione as a polymath intellectual who reads obscure german philosophers, and argues things like, "Well according to Hegelian dialectic...", or "We cannot merely apply new Cartesian Dualism in these circumstances". And yeah, I'm exaggerating wildly, but you get the idea, I hope. While I've not read those remarks in fic (hardly likely since I just made them up) I have read awfully similar. And it irritates me a bit, because it is not Hermione Granger in canon. It's a Sue. And if it looks like a Sue, walks like a Sue, and quacks like a Sue, then it is probably a Sue.
She isn't an intellectual. She might indeed grow into one, but in the fics I'm thinking of, she's usually in her teens - and therefore is not the intellectual self-insertion the authors are trying to pull.. |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:57 am |
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She's smart, but it's knowledge regurgitation that makes her so, not intelligence. She rarely uses her own initiative, and almost always relies on what she's been told to do (be that via a teacher or a book). Sticking to the rules is more of a fear response than anything, but when there's a net gain to be made for her (directly or indirectly), she quickly breaks them. That gain might be the chance to lecture Harry and Ron, or it could be to send Harry and Ron off to discover who controls the Basilisk so she might stand a chance against being petrified.
When she does use her own initiative, however, it shows her to be the nasty little girl that she is. She lies, she steals, she's extraordinarily cruel (Rita Skeeter in a jar, anyone?), she's acid-mouthed, she holds grudges and she considers herself to be a step above her fellow housemates. Read past the fits of tears and occasional declarations of 'oh, Ron!' and she's a genuinely awful little girl.
Do I dislike her for this? No. I adore writing Hermione in all her sulky, petulant, childish glory. I think that because I bear in mind what an annoying little snot she was as a child, that gets me accused of being OOFC (out of fanon character - she's not a little sex-hungry genius with a craving to be buggered by her surly teacher, and god help me if I ever wrote her like that) or the much nicer accusation of keeping her firmly in line with canon.
As I said in my lj not too long ago, you probably had to have been a nasty little swot with a superiority complex when you were a child in order to get Hermione right. heh |
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| zyliel |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:18 am |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Location: Sydney
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Phew, Azazello. We were thinking on different parts of the timeline. (And even if we weren't, I wouldn't admit it, I'd lose any argument with you before I even started  )
 I think I might be a pretty good Hermione writer then, liquidscissors (were I capable of writing). Interesting perception  . I guess she really deserves Sev, then.  |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:42 am |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Northern UK
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Liquidscissors wrote:
Quote: you probably had to have been a nasty little swot with a superiority complex when you were a child in order to get Hermione right. heh
On that level alone, I qualify 100%.
And I still have the indelible British superiority complex. In spades. |
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Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail |
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| snapeaddict |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:33 pm |
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Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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Probably Hermione is not an intellectual in the sense spelled out by azazello. But then I think she is more than just a swot.
She does have an intellectual mind, after all her parents are academics, too. She is socially committed and interested in "politics" if you can call it that. But she is a bit naive in that. I'm referring to her S.P.E.W. business. 
I wouldn't say she IS an intellectual (then again, most teenagers aren't) and I would not find fics convincing that had her quoting Heidegger and Nietzsche. On the other hand, she does have an "intellectual" way of approaching problems. She gets her Hogwarts letter...she does preparatory reading. I'm probably not making much sense here but I find it difficult to explain.
As for the superiority complex...I think Hermione's problem is more an inferiority complex. My guess is that she works extra hard because she feels she has to - being a Muggleborn. She always feels she has to prove herself, having to "compensate" for the "disadvantage". And that makes her the knowitall she is.
Am I making any sense at all? I wonder... |
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| liquidscissors |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:49 pm |
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There was a huge inferiority complex, you're right.
I tend to think that as she developed and became more confident in her magical abilities, it's gradually morphed from needing to prove herself in order to gain acceptance from others into proving herself to be better than others.
She found her foothold in Hogwarts society, and then used it to hammer home that Muggleborn or not, she was superior to her native schoolmates in one important area.
...but then again, I tend to paint her in an unfortunate - but loving - light. Hermione Granger, sunshine and lollypops! |
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| anna_kat |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:26 pm |
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Joined: 01 Jan 2005
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Well, as I completely agree with her decisions, especially about Rita Skeeter and Dolores Umbrigde, I won't call her a nasty little girl. Without Hermione, Umbridge would still be at Hogwarts. Don't you think it's brilliant that one little girl succeeds, where all adults fail?
Neither do I see a superiority/inferiority complex. She likes to learn new things, and she is creative in her practical application of it. Why does she need a complex for that? She wants to get good marks. That isn't especially unusual, is it? After all, it was not before Draco called her a mudblood that she knew about the prejudice against Muggle-borns. Ron and Hagrid had to explain it to her (unlike the movie), but she liked to learn well before that.
What I think is very important about Hermione, is that she is part of a trio. I think that defines her more than her intellect. It's for her friendship, especially for Harry, that she breaks rules and takes charge. She doesn't do it for personal gain or for the adventure. Sometimes she does it even against her better judgement. That defines her. IMHO, of course. |
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| Snape Fan |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:01 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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Quote: She lies, she steals, she's extraordinarily cruel (Rita Skeeter in a jar, anyone?), she's acid-mouthed
I think you just describe me at Hermione's age when I wanted something, or someone did something to me I didn't like and needed to retaliate! 
I also don't think Hermione spends all her free time gobbling up every little book she can read. And while she's the "know-it-all" Snape calls her, he calls her that because she's that way with school. I absolutely hate it when I see her portrayed in fanfic as an equal to Snape in intelligence, or any other adult for that matter. That alone is not saying much about theirs. It took them years to get where they are and some authors put her on an equal footing at age 17-18. Impossible.
And she didn't figure much in OoTP in the MOM did she? Wasn't she taken out pretty much right away? I think Neville made it farther than her! |
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| RachelW |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:11 pm |
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
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Location: The Republic of Texas
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Snape Fan wrote: I absolutely hate it when I see her portrayed in fanfic as an equal to Snape in intelligence, or any other adult for that matter. That alone is not saying much about theirs. It took them years to get where they are and some authors put her on an equal footing at age 17-18. Impossible.
Oh, but try to have her make mistakes that a 17-18 year old would make, or have her NOT be on the emotional or mental level of a 30 year old, and you'd better wear your asbestos pants. Well, at least from some quarters. |
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| Snape Fan |
| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:34 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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| So true - I guess authors are "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't." |
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