Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - Marriage Law Challenge, Bane to Creativity? (debate time)

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anna_kat

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:24 pm

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

Quote:

Sex within the MLC though...I wonder if it might be realistic to look at the sex as the only good thing about the situation....as in "This is a horrible situation, but at least the sex is good..."

I have a hard time imagining that a girl as idealistic as Hermione would be content in such a situation. There is no getting around the fact that the rules of the MLC make the Muggle-born witch a powerless, inferior being, who is declared second-class by the laws of her society. Her choices are all dependent on her husbands good will which can be withdrawn any time. Sex, no matter how enjoyable the act in itself may be, is not optional, it is a duty.

A girl who was not raised to think of such abomination as her fate would be very aware of her situation. Particularly Hermione. You don't campaign against the enslavement of house elves, and then happily arrange yourself with a situation where suddenly you become the house elf.

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Usually Severus hasn't changed his attitude toward her one ounce in their everyday dealings, he is just sleeping with her and her emotions are manipulated in a way that makes her think she is in love.

Exactly. The MLC as such already states that Severus can't win the girl the hard way, unlike the rest of wizard-kind, and within the MLC this is reinforced when he resorts to emotional manipulation, to get her to see him in a more flattering light. Clearly, the man has nothing to recommend himself. And yet, Hermione, the clever one, shuts down her brain when Severus, the horrible one, touches her sexually.

There is no happy end under the MLC, unless you ignore the context. The MLC is just an easy way to get them to have sex and screw realism. Which is, of course, perfectly alright for an erotic fantasy. But not for a story.

Some, but very few, MLC fics are good stories, but they are plot driven and don't gloss over the horror that the enslavement of a previously free women is. No matter how sexy her owner might be.

bmoravenclaw

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:42 pm

Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 4

First, I'll admit I have not thouroughly read all the previous quotes but... Why is would anyone accept the premise that pureblood society has both the politcal and economic power to enact and then enforce such a barbabic law? The Marriage Law Challange is not so much a bane to creativity as it is a bane to logical thinking. As the decendants of an enslaved people I do have a biased view. I will acknowledge that a powerful people if they feel that their survival is threatened would be willing to subjegate and exploit another but would they want forced breeding, would they elevate the offspring to positions of equality? I think not. OK, I'm overanalyzing again but just like with the " I'm now a fully growed woman because I used the time turner" stories; I think I'm going to have to give the " I'm willing to sacrifice my body and free will to a world that apparently depises me" stories a rest.

deus-ex-maria

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:55 am

Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 12

When I was sixteen, I became a collared submissive, to a man old enough to be my father. It does happen.

Having said that, I can't buy it happening to Hermione.

It didn't have anything to do with being smart, or clever. It had everything to do with the fact that I was a horribly damaged girl. Hermione isn't.

Healthy people don't enjoy abusive relationships. MLC depends on financial abuse, and generally social and emotional abuse as well.

Having been in the type of relationship some MLC fics choose to portray, I just can't swallow Hermione tolerating a second of it. She's not a victim. She's a heroine.

Not all MLC fics are bad, and I've enjoyed a few of them. They just generally don't mesh with the girl from JKR's books. That's the Hermione I want to read about.

To each their own, and all that. Mine is not to tell others what to say or think, but just because I spent my teen years with a great neon sign above my head flashing "VICTIM" doesn't mean that all girls did.

azazello

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:04 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

I'm well aware that people who have endured abuse, often find they can be freer in the particular dynamics of a BDSM set up - because only by surrendering the control can they free themselves sexually. And I hope I've got that right; correct me if I have not - I'm going off what friends have told me.

LIke you I cannot see that being the case of Hermione. and I think fics that depict her as a product of abuse at home can only have been written by those who have not read the canon properly.

In anycase, submissive Hermione is NEVER adequately set up in this stories (personally I would actually see there being a better case of Sub!Severus), but rather the old, magical binding bollocks.

Yeah, I know folks often rant that you should not seek to gain sexual explanation from fanfic. But I only read when I believe the basic premise. And if someone's opening premise is some magical sexual binding that takes place at the ceremony, or that Hermione is abused, or any of the sheer plethora of crapitude that's been around, I make friends with my trusty backbutton. I've yet to encounter a fanfic author with the skill to make me believe in any of them.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Aestel

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:51 am

Joined: 18 Mar 2005 Posts: 10

I realize I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I just wanted to point out that the marriage law challenge is, like all challenges, merely a tool or a template. It does not and cannot stifle creativity, because creativity is not found in the tool itself, but in how you choose to utilize it.* I could say a great deal about how there are better tools out there, but when it comes down to it, MLC fics are generally bad because lazy writers treat the challenge as an excuse for plausibility, and don't generally bother to write characters in character (or bother with a plot at all). That, however, is simply a symptom of a larger disorder that I believe tends to show up more in MLC stories because a large number of lazy writers gravitate to the quick fix it seems to offer.

* Mind you, I'm the kind of person that uses a hammer for gardening and calls it art.

Zia

Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:49 am

Joined: 29 Apr 2005 Posts: 19 Location: Den Haag

Aestel wrote:

But the marriage law challenge in itself is a very badly thought out tool. I think a good challenge is a believable challenge (which is not the same as an easy one). When the challenge is dumb, with no real connection to the potterverse, it makes it very easy for writers use their minds just as little as the challenger herself did, pay no attention to the canon ww and just write horrid stories which are set in a world with HP names and places but with no respect for the HP world at all (ah, the life of a reader, bitching about others without actually doing any of the hard work herself).

1) The challenge discriminates against witches, something we do not find in the WW (with a former minister of magic, with female portraits of headmasters etc. so apparently the ww actually was quite forward in that aspect) so where would the suddenly 18th century view of the challenge come from? It apparently is something that people love because especially in challenge fics you find way out of date ideas as no divorce, binding rituals right out of the dark ages (think chastity locks), contraception forbidden etc. etc. I especially hate challenges where "Hermione is allowed to continue her education." Apparently getting married for women means being subject tot the dominance of their husbands. Where does this idiotic idea come from, and where is the fun in writing it?

2) The challenge is silly, because pure-bloods and muggle borns are a minority. The majority of the ww populations ia already mixed, and will continue to stay mixed. Secondly it solves only half of the problem, as muggle born wizards apparently do not get to petition for pure-blood witches... I wonder what happens to them.

3) The challenge is silly because in the challenge marriage does not include having to have children. So what's the purpose?

4) In lots of fics children are obligatory. So what does this mean, extrapolating beyond Snape and Hermione? Lots and lots of unwanted children. No loving familie homes but parents who at best tolerate each other and at worst rip each other apart. Somehow I never see these problems dealt with in MLC-fics.

5) If muggle parents find out about the law, the number of muggle born children attending Hogwarts will drop drastically. No way they will let anything like a forced marriage happen to their children. Not good for the ww.

Having said that I like the idea of 'what would happen if... ' What would happen if the first generation of ML children would go to Hogwarts? Is there a logical way such a law could have come to pass? Is there a way Snape and Hermione would get married? I don't buy the protection argument. When I really stretch my mind I can come up with something, without violating the WW too much, but it would have to involve the wizarding equivalent of martial law, an insane minister of magic and a severely decimated and non-functioning Wizengamot to say the least.

What I really cannot get my mind to imagine is the surrogate mother challenge. No way I can see Hermione getting pregnant, signing a contract to give the baby away and falling in love with someone who wants something so utterly inhumane from her.

skybyrd

Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 5:54 pm

Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 13

Something I've noticed in many recent challenges is that they are so specific. I think both the Marriage Law and the Surrogate challenge would have been a bit better had they been a little more general.

For the ML challenge, if the author of the challenge had said something along the lines of "The wizarding world finds out that pureblood interbreeding is the cause of rising squib births. " And left *how* it is solved up to the author. One of solutions is obviously a marriage law. In one of the responses, the author has a Ministry official telling Draco that if he wants magical children, his best chances are to marry a full muggle. So a marriage law that would fit the more general challenge is that purebloods can no longer marry each other (though now that I think about it, someone did insert that law into their response). Place the story so it takes place after Voldy is defeated, and after the Golden Trio are out of school, and I can see Severus choosing Hermione (assuming she really is a. brilliant and b. his internal feelings toward her are not hatred or contempt). And with Hermione's love of a challenge, I could see her agreeing. One of the challenges of writing HG/SS is to make the characters spend time together out of the classroom so they can see what we see. And a marriage of convience is an easy way to do this.

For the Surrogate challenge, I have often wondered how/what children are supposed to do after school. So something like, "Hermione finds herself unemployed and penniless." Again, making her spend a fair amount of time with Severus is the goal, and especially if there is a child involved, that is a pretty strong incentive for them to end up where we, the authors and readers, want them to end up.

Usually challenges don't do much for me, there was only one of the Spring Faire challenges that sparked and interest, but as I'm moving from VA to TX in the next two months, I don't quite have the time for writing to take up a challenge.

Zia

Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 9:19 pm

Joined: 29 Apr 2005 Posts: 19 Location: Den Haag

skybyrd wrote:

Place the story so it takes place after Voldy is defeated, and after the Golden Trio are out of school, and I can see Severus choosing Hermione (assuming she really is a. brilliant and b. his internal feelings toward her are not hatred or contempt). And with Hermione's love of a challenge, I could see her agreeing. One of the challenges of writing HG/SS is to make the characters spend time together out of the classroom so they can see what we see. And a marriage of convience is an easy way to do this.

But why would she enter a marriage of convenience? Marriage is more than loving a challenge. I can imagine her accepting a job which is a challenge, but marriage? No way. Not when in the muggle and the ww world people marry for love. So why would she settle for less?

Quote:

For the Surrogate challenge, I have often wondered how/what children are supposed to do after school. So something like, "Hermione finds herself unemployed and penniless." Again, making her spend a fair amount of time with Severus is the goal, and especially if there is a child involved, that is a pretty strong incentive for them to end up where we, the authors and readers, want them to end up.

Again, why would Hermione find herself unemployed and penniless? She is a very bright witch, if anybody would not have problems finding a job, then it would be her. Then ofcourse, she has familie and friends to fall back on, so why would they not help her?

I want reasons for situations, plausible, believable reasons. Not 'this is the way it is, because the author says so.' And though I am an absolute sucker for happy endings, I want them to be believable. In case of the surrogate mother challenge, I don't want anybody end up with a man who wants to buy a child. I would want to see some serious character development on his part. Also on her part, because selling a child to someone she can be almost certain is not first class parenting material is not the right thing to do. I cannot combine that with Hermione's strong instinct for right and wrong. I mean, this is the woman who wanted to free house-elfs!

Diana

Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:03 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I’ve been thinking about the MLC more recently, maybe because it is the challenge that simply refuses to die. I think that the reasons for it not working extend far beyond the simple complications of Hermione and Snape would never do that, or the law is barbaric. Essentially, it violates every aspect of canon.

Putting Hermione and Snape aside, I’ll start with characterisation.

Voldemort - Regardless of whether the story takes place pre-end of the war with Voldemort or post-war with Voldemort/Voldemort victory, it simply doesn’t work. His bigotry for all things Muggle is simply too strong to allow for such a thing to occur. In fact, if the MLC were to happen in canon, I could see Voldemort heading up the campaign to get the bloody rubbish appealed. Organising bake-sales and handing out flyers in Diagon Alley, if necessary. In other words, Voldemort would not support this flaw in logic, no matter how deranged the man may be. And if by some fluke he were backed into a corner on it, he damn sure wouldn’t be gleeful about it.

In addition, most MLC fics play on the theory that Voldemort is just an ignorant fool. How untrue is that. He may be ignorant on social issues, but he packs a powerful punch in the magic department. So the spell he cast on Harry rebounded and nearly killed him. It still took a lot of power and knowledge to get to where he is, and I find it highly unlikely that he could be duped so easily by a Snape and Hermione dancing monkey act.

Dumbledore - Twinkles his way though these fics like its an every day thing. Excuse me, but have these people even bothered reading book five? Sure, Dumbledore may be the ‘happy bumbling headmaster’ of books one through four, but anyone who read book five, and in particular the end of book five, and even more specifically Dumbledore’s confrontation with Voldemort, knows that the Dumbledore here is neither bumbling or twinkly about this war. He is a wizard not to be trifled with.

Really, Dumbledore gets the good old canon-shaft in essentially any SS/HG story, never mind MLCs.* Sure, there are those select few that truly depict a logical and sensible headmaster, but they are few and far between. And sure, I’m aware that the age divide in the wizarding world may be a bit less stressful than the Muggle equivalent, but I’m pretty confident that the rules on teacher/student conduct are not. Why in the hell would Dumbledore ever allow his potions master marry one of his students? Or rather any teacher and any student entering into a marriage.

Harry - Repeat after me: Boy Who Lived. Enough said. There is that pesky canon prophecy you know. Harry and Voldemort will battle it out. Not Voldemort and Snape. Not Voldemort and Hermione.** Not Voldemort and any combination of canon/OCs that exclude Harry. Not a feather boa on roller skates. Not a talking bird, fish, Crookshanks, hippogriff, etc... HARRY BLOODY POTTER! Most of the pre-end of war fics hardly even include Harry, and when they do he is either there to bring on the capslock or show up just in time to see any other character not named Harry take down Voldemort before casually exiting. Post-war fics he is almost always either, dead, insane, or fled the wizarding world to work on his mummy issues, or some such rubbish.

Molly Weasley - Would explode. More than likely, quite literally. She would not be motherly and nurturing, she would be ordering up Snape and Dumbledore’s heads on a silver platter. In fact, the MLC would provide a very quick and painless out for this whole pesky war with Voldemort business in canon – cue up Molly Weasley alone in a room with Voldemort because she has just discovered that one of the precious children are being sacrificed to their potions master in the name of ‘protection’ ‘the common good’ ‘we couldn’t come up with a better plot line, so we’re force feeding you this lame shit instead’.

Lucius Malfoy - Never since the term 'insufferable know-it-all' has such a tiny piece of throw away canon been so throughly violated. I find it hard to believe that Lucius Malfoy could for a second overcome his bigotry and support such a measure, no matter how revengeful it may appear. Lucius Malfoy seems pretty adamant about his 'mudblood' issues, and I highly doubt that he would allow for his son to marry one, even if she is the 'brightest witch of her age'. If it were a matter of Squibs, I'm sure Draco and his proper pureblood wife could produce an army of them and still keep Lucius Malfoy more satisfied then the possibility of Draco and Hermione producing one powerful magical child.

And of course, there are the canon concerns to consider.

Squibs - There is a part of me, the cold and spiteful part, that likes to think that J.K. Rowling only made her intentions on Squibs clear (check out her website if you’re confused) after finding out about this absurd challenge. Of course, I mean after she was led away to a quite room to decompress and collect her thoughts coherently for say a day or so.

For anyone still out there that may be confused: Squibs are extremely rare. As are Muggle-borns and purebloods for that matter. But to be specific, Squibs are extremely and completely rare.

Wizarding world secrecy - Has it ever occurred to any MLC writers that a Marriage Law would run the risk of exposing the wizarding world to mainstream Muggle society? Do they honestly believe that Muggle parents, catching wind of what is happening/will happen to their children, wouldn’t go screaming to every Muggle they could find. Sure, some would think they were lunatics, but gather enough Muggle parents and you’ve got a problem. I’m sure Obliviate can go a long way, but casting upon the entire population of Muggle England would be a bit tricky. Anyone ever curious as to why most Muggle-born students seem to be keeping mum about the war to their parents? Sure, they don’t want to get pulled from the wizarding world that they have come to love, a place where they finally fit in, but doesn’t anyone think that it may have a bit to do with secrecy as well?

Forced submission of women: I find it highly odd that some of the most powerful magical characters are women, yet they are expected to, in MLC fics, mind, submit to this law as if they are second class citizens. If I were a wizard, I would be hard pressed to be willing to go up against an enraged McGonagall or a livid Molly Weasley. Hermione isn’t bad with a wand, and neither is Ginny. Sure there is a gender imbalance in the wizarding world, just as there is in the Muggle equivalent, but there is the potential for a more balanced power share. Remember, Snape’s parents were yelling at each other in that Pensieve scene, it wasn’t Snape’s father simply bullying Snape’s mum. We haven’t seen much of Narcissa Malfoy, but I’m pretty confident that if Lucius tried to smack her she’d throw a mean Slicing Hex that would make him think twice next time. Bellatrix is not one to be trifled with either, all though that is equal parts power and insanity. My point is this, magical power does not appear to be gender biased in the least, so saying that a witch is inferior to a wizard is illogical.

*SS/HG fics that feature an adult Hermione do not always run the risk of shafting Dumbledore in the characterisation and canon department.
**Ultimately, one of the only MLCs that I read and enjoyed employed this method, but given the intricate plot, I was willing to look over it at the time. That, and I was just getting into the fanfiction aspect of fandom, what did I know.

There are a select few MLC fics that I've read and actually enjoyed:
Cloak of Courage by WendyNat. Yes, it had heroine Hermione and yes it was cliched to a great extent, but it was plot driven. Plus, it wasn't a distinct response, more of a based loosely upon MLC.
Marriage Vows Series by Selened. I have to admit that I prefer the later installments to the second story (the first SS/HG in the series). Yes, it does employ some of the above mentioned themes, but it is still a good read.

Plus, there is June's acid response to the lunacy that I simply adore. There is also a new short ficlet on Ashwinder that had me cracking up since Hermione found herself up shit creek without a paddle once she realised that Snape was married and couldn't 'save' her. Obviously, this was a parody...I cracked up. There have been a handful of responses that deal with the fic in other somewhat logical ways: Snape and Hermione get a quickie Muggle marriage and an even quicker Muggle divorce so that they can rid themselves of the idiotic law; or Hermione and/or Snape fighting the law like their sensible canon counter-parts would if they were ever faced with the situation.

mouseII

Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 3:12 am

Joined: 05 May 2005 Posts: 76

I guess this is an academic concern, because the marriage law challenge was invented long before JKR made this comment, but she has said that magic is a dominant and persistent gene (which makes no sense, because if it were, wizards would outnumber Muggles - they should outnumber them anyway; magic should get Darwin bang on-side with your DNA).

This implies that if one of your parents is magic - muggleborn, pureblood, mixed blood, whatever - chances are that you and all of your siblings are also magical. So if the wizarding world wants more wizards and witches, they just need to encourage everyone to go get married and make babies (since no one in the Potterverse is capable of making babies before they get married Razz

). Period. There is no need to specify who anyone marries, so long as they marry and breed. The dominant and persistent magical gene will take care of the rest; more magical babies will be naturally forthcoming. No need for either a Severus Snape or a Hermione Granger to wind up shackled to someone they can't stand.

I agree with what has been said before: the marriage law challenge is silly and actually quite offensive. It exists simply as a crutch; it allows unlikely pairings to occur in HP fanfiction with a minimum of effort on the part of the writer. Only a weak writer needs a crutch, and this tends to show in MLC fics - a good writer can work magic with even the stinkiest premise, and this accounts for the few quality MLC stories out there.

I don't think the MLC impedes creativity exactly - I think it encourages weak writers to get creative (arguably all challenges do this). It's just that weak writers write weak stories, until they are forced to become better writers by having someone say to them, "Look, this just doesn't work." The MLC allows the writer to wave away such concerns, and that has a negative impact on quality, rather than creativity.

skybyrd

Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 10:05 pm

Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 13

Zia wrote:

skybyrd wrote:

People in the muggle world marry for a ton of different reasons, not all of which are love, and even if love is one of the reasons, it may not be the *only* reason to marry someone. Hermione, especially in the later books, reminds me as one of those people that needs challenges. She *can't* take the easy way out, it's not in her nature. And loving (and eventually marrying) a man as complicated as Severus Snape is definitely a challenge.

As to why she would accept a marriage of convience, well, whats the situation? It all depends on the situation. In book 5, Hermione demonstrated her willingness to use/abuse people to do what she feels is right, especially in the way she rid the school of Umbridge.

Quote:

Do you really think she would ask for help? I don't. I see her as thinking of asking for help as "the easy way out" (see above response). I see her as bound and deteremined to try it on her own. There *is* prejudice in the Wizarding world against muggleborns, or else mudblood wouldn't be such an insult. A muggleborn friend of Harry Potter would not be employed by a pureblood, even if that pureblood is neutral in the brewing conflict. I can easily imagine her to find out that more doors are closed to her than she thought, and being unwilling to take some of the doors that are open to her, due to her arrogance about her abilities.

Quote:

I want reasons for situations, plausible, believable reasons. Not 'this is the way it is, because the author says so.' And though I am an absolute sucker for happy endings, I want them to be believable. In case of the surrogate mother challenge, I don't want anybody end up with a man who wants to buy a child. I would want to see some serious character development on his part. Also on her part, because selling a child to someone she can be almost certain is not first class parenting material is not the right thing to do. I cannot combine that with Hermione's strong instinct for right and wrong. I mean, this is the woman who wanted to free house-elfs!

One reason would be signing the contract with the intent to change Severus Snape, being sure of her ability to get out of the contract if she is unsuccesful. She's very arrogant about her abilities. It would be very easy for her to get in over her head.

I think we view Hermione's character differently, so we see different scenarios emerging.

azazello

Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:18 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Sees gap, pokes out neck.

I have to say the sheer suckitude of the MLC pales into insignificance before some of the challenges I've encountered of late. Two spring to mind as being so irrelevant to both characters I'm wondering if the devisers of such have actually read some alternative canon, whereby Snape is actually the lovable uncle figure who helps the "Golden Trio" (as bad writers have it) get out of scrapes, often taking the rap for them.

Babysitting the toddler is a new horror. The Surrogacy is another.

Both these ideas perform canon and character rape about both Snape and Hermione, by turning him into a cuddly daddy and her into apple pie Mom (which is usually what, showing unflagging attention to detail, the writers call her in said fics). I'm not saying he might not be a loving father in a whole set of circumstances, but it's going to take major and life changing circumstances to get him there. And the surrogacy idea, as earlier pointed out reminds me of silly stories where Hermione is a running dating agencies, or working as a prostitute to get herself college money.

Her parents are dentists. They will not be short of money, and I suggest can afford to underwrite her ambitions. There's no wizarding university. But never let canon get in the way of a badfic.

The point is all these concepts are simply bolted on to the Potterverse and just do not fit. It returns me to what I say are often the two most vital things for a good fanfic: Good opening premise; good set up. Clearly most of these challenges have neither.

To be honest both the ideas above are actually worse than the MLC, out of which two decent stories emerged (er, three, I'm going to count mine, soddit). I do not want to read Cutesy!Snape, because it is not Snape. I can read Father!Snape at the end of a fairly long story that showed us how he got there. I still cannot see him being all that hands-on a father, not with very small children. The woman who takes him on is going to have to accept that this is not a modern liberated set up. He might be more active in parenting older kids.

Why in any case is it always assumed that both him and Hermione will have loads of kids? I've read one story that posited neither as wanting children (by me) and I'd see the maximum they'd have as two or three.

I've read one or two stories of "Children of Snape" that work: R J Anderson took her "Darkness and Light" OFC story to the next generation, and there were three kids, and the best depicted was a girl (Margot) who really was a chip off the old block.

There's also "Girl Most Likely" by Liz Barr which features a pairing between an older Auror Harry and a young girl, Lilith who is a bit of a wildchild, and is of course, Snape's daughter. She has the hair and the nose, too.

And of course, I don't see Hermione being that interested in having multi-kids, either.

Snape/Toddler stories. Just say, "No". Surrogate "Mom" (as the writers of same will put it): Just run a bloody mile. I'll validate such stories (provided they meet site rules) but with a curled lip sneer worthy of the great man himself. My sarcastic mutterings while doing same would probably bring a reluctant smile to his lips, too.

Zia

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 10:07 am

Joined: 29 Apr 2005 Posts: 19 Location: Den Haag

skybyrd wrote:

But then a writer has to build up the romance. Where would they meet, why would they want to get to know each other, the whole thing.

Quote:

As to why she would accept a marriage of convience, well, whats the situation? It all depends on the situation. In book 5, Hermione demonstrated her willingness to use/abuse people to do what she feels is right, especially in the way she rid the school of Umbridge.

But marriage is something quite a lot bigger and more personal than a one time action. Again, a writer must make believable why both of them would want to enter such a marriage.

And most MLC-fics simply don't do that.

Quote:

Do you really think she would ask for help? I don't. I see her as thinking of asking for help as "the easy way out" (see above response). I see her as bound and deteremined to try it on her own.

When on of the themes of the books is about people working together? I think not. There is no canon evidence for Hermione to never, ever accept help when she is in a tight spot. The first major action we see of her is when the three of them together fight the mountain troll.

Quote:

There *is* prejudice in the Wizarding world against muggleborns, or else mudblood wouldn't be such an insult. A muggleborn friend of Harry Potter would not be employed by a pureblood, even if that pureblood is neutral in the brewing conflict.

I'm sorry, but that is fanfic and not canon. In canon we see prejudice, true but not in the sometimes idiotic way it is depicted in fanfic. Now, when we know Malfoy and friends will discriminize against muggleborns, they are just a group of purebloods, not even the majority. What we see in canon is time and time again mixing of purebloods and muggleborns or even muggles. James and Lily, Tom Riddle's mum and his muggle father, Percey and Penelope. Or to paraphrase Ron (pureblood) Weasley "We'd have died out if we had not married muggles." Wanting to spend the rest of your life with a muggleborn and not wanting to employ them? I don't buy it.

Quote:

1)Assuming she did not learn and did not further grow up, which I think is out of character, and we see quite a bit of growth in book five. I fully expect to see more of it in book six and seven.
2)A writer would have to make believable why she would want to enter the contract in the first place. And wanting to change Snape is not a believable excuse, unless the writer would give me a very good motivation for her wanting to do that. If she could get out, she would be the one to get stuck with the child. Why would she want that? Especially if poverty would be the reason the writer has thought up for her to enter it in the first place.

Quote:

I think we view Hermione's character differently, so we see different scenarios emerging.

The problem I get with your scenario's is that for me they don't work. I don't know how you see Hermione, so as a reader I get my view of her from how you write her. From the scenarios you write about her I get the impression of a rather stupid, arrogant person who does not think things through, does not self-reflect and has no clue about her true motivations. Which is not the Hermione of the books, but reminds me of a female Dudley who happens to be called Hermione.

The main thing I miss in your scenarios are the reasons for her actions:

Why would she want to change Snape? Because it amuses her? Because she thinks he needs changing? Because she wants to save him? Because whatever?
What is it about Snape that makes her want to change him? Would she still want to change him if it were Filch? Would the story still work? A good story would.

To paraprhase your scenarios: Hermione enters in them because that is the way you see Hermione. What your scenarios don't do is make me as a reader see how you view her. Unless ofcourse you see her as the female equivalent of Dudley Wink

skybyrd

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 3:16 pm

Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 13

Zia wrote:

To paraprhase your scenarios: Hermione enters in them because that is the way you see Hermione. What your scenarios don't do is make me as a reader see how you view her. Unless ofcourse you see her as the female equivalent of Dudley Wink

Hehe, yeah, I can see that. However, I am writing summaries of the situations, and not writing the stories. I'm not delving into their minds and pulling out the whys and wherefores behind the actions. I personally don't write challenges, none of them have ever sparked my interest.
Suffice it to say that if I were writing the challenges, I would attempt to *show* what you posted about (whether I was successful would be up to the reader, but I would *try*).

As an example, my own WIP started out as a SS/HG romance, with visions of a typical happy ending, final snog in the sunset type thing. What its ended up being is a SS/HG friendship, at most a pre-relationship story, where the characters are seeing each other with different eyes. However, with Hermione being a student and Voldy still being alive, with how I wrote their characters (which I hope was fairly close to canon), there would be no way they'd get into a relationship with the situation as it stood.

As for the prejudice, again, I guess I see it differently than you do. I see it as similar to some of the racial issues in America, it seems to have alot of parallels. I'm aware I could be projecting and that's not what JKR means at all.

liquidscissors

Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 3:33 pm

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

In summary: the challenge sucks, 99.9% of the stories it inspires suck, and this dead horse is just about falling apart.

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