Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - Marriage Law Challenge, Bane to Creativity? (debate time)

Author

Message

< The Common Room ~ Marriage Law Challenge, Bane to Creativity? (debate time)

aphrodeia

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:03 am

Moderator Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 46

I have this sudden compulsion to begin an MLC/Time Turner fic.

(HA! It'd be complete sometime in the next three years. I'll not get my hopes up.)

Aphrodeia Wink

Snapes Slave

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:24 am

Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 1

No, I do not think of the MLC as a bane to creativity, because then I would consider any challenge as such. Albeit there are IMO, only a few good MLC fics out there, a challenge to me is just that...a challenge. What differentiates the good fics from the bad ones is in the writing regardless of the premise. The challenges offer a guideline...requirements what have you, and making the fic plausible canonisticly within that framework is where, to me, the challenge really sits.

snapeaddict

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:39 pm

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

I didn't read all of the posts but I have to largely agree with azazello. I had not heard about the MLC before I came to SH and it took me a while to figure out what it was all about.

Like azazello I think it takes the creativity out of making a pairing appear plausible. There might still be people who do a nice job on showing how the involuntary couple get to finally respect and love each other but on the whole I think it is too much of a poor set-up.

The Ministry of Magic is no dictatorship and, being German, I'm probably a bit more touchy on the subject. Eugenics, "breeding" people...that all smacks too much of "Lebensborn" for my taste. The idea gives me the creeps!

Lebensborn was a secret Nazi project where "racially pure" women could meet "racially pure" men and have them father their children. The children would be taken care of by the SS organization which took in charge their "education" and adoption.

Maybe it sounds far-fetched. But the mere idea of such a law gives me the creeps and I would never use it in my fictions. That is just my personal opinion though.

It's just that I probably wouldn't enjoy reading the MLC stories, that's all. If people want to write them it's fine by me.

liquidscissors

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:01 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Quote:

a challenge to me is just that...a challenge.

True. But when a challenge morphs from being a mere challenge to a horrible gelatinous blob that swallows up fics with original plots, dominates the general 'ship output and becomes de rigueur for new writers... then yes, it isa bane to creativity.

MLC means a crapfic waiting to happen. If you can make something new and/or interesting out of it, then more power to you. In general terms though, it's a miserable idea that's spawned a thousand equally miserable fics.

June? I think I picked up your curmudgeon hat by mistake. Wink

azazello

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:52 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

June? I think I picked up your curmudgeon hat by mistake

Yeah? Well, I have to say, you look really cute wearing it!

*stamps on amorphous gelatinous blob called MLC and runs off to get the industrial strength bleach and see if that will shift it off the carpet.*

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

anna_kat

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:46 am

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

Quote:

I sometimes ask myself whether these people have even read the Hermione in J.K. Rowling's books. Maybe they just like the name...

Most fanfic writers don't like the Hermione in the books, and they certainly don't like her with Severus. Canon Hermione is too strong and too forceful a personality for most of Severus' fans to be comfortable with her. I assume that the Severus who exists in their head feels, threatened by strong, forceful and opinionated women. So they take her down for him, until she has learned humility, before they allow him to return the affection that his insulting behaviour is building up in her.

Quote:

MLC means a crapfic waiting to happen.

It also means that Severus can not get the girl without the help of a dehumanising law.

I stopped reading MLC fics when I realised that they never acknowledge Hermione's heritage. She wasn't groomed to accept arranged marriages or compulsory copulation, and neither were her parents. Yet, invariably Snape is the one who mistreats his wife because she was forced upon him, while Hermione is the one who adapts. The view behind this idea is not mine.

While I have the floor let me say that I hate, absolutely hate, how so many fics, but most of all MLC fics, turn Hermione into some kind of animal who reflexively responds to stimuli, regardless of her feelings for the man or the situation. What's up with that?

Diana

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:18 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

Quote:

While I have the floor let me say that I hate, absolutely hate, how so many fics, but most of all MLC fics, turn Hermione into some kind of animal who reflexively responds to stimuli, regardless of her feelings for the man or the situation. What's up with that?

I think, besides all of the insensitive and insulting issues regarding the MLC, that what you have mentioned is probably the one things that bugs me the most as well. Especially when Hermione is a virgin in the situtation. Virgins are not liberated sexually, and most seventeen and eighteen year olds are not either.

RachelW

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:43 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

Diana wrote:

Quote:

These comments got me to thinking, regarding virgins, teenagers, and sexuality.

Curious here...anyone out there finally 'get some' as a teen, and then discovered they really liked it? That it was perhaps even fun...enjoyable...and something to look forward to doing again? What if...as a teenager, with lets say, a teenagers lack of perspective on the bigger picture, they decided to get some on a regular basis...and what if they had someone who was avalible to them, but they didn't have to worry about emotional entanglements, just good sex, and conversation between orgasms? Do you think a person might end up very liberated?

I would think a lot more seventeen and eighteen year olds are fairly sexually liberated, unless they've been locked up in a church all their lives getting the 'no sex before marriage' 'guys won't respect you if you give in' and 'premarital sex is cheating on your future spouse' and other similar messages. What if they'd had a good, healthy dose of Robert Heinlein in their teens to help them form their opinions on sexuality?

Just some 'what if's I was wondering about...

I've noticed people get really touchy on the subject of sexuality, and espically on things like 'this charachter wouldn't do that'...'that' being any number of things from enjoying sex to other things, or wanting sex to just be sex without an implied emotional or lifelong comitment, or something. What's to say someone can't be smart, or studious, and have a raging libido? Is a raging libido something that only happens in people with certain charachteristics and personality types? Or maybe I'm the strange one thinking that it's possible for someone to make mistakes or have their judgement clouded over lust...or even to feel lust for someone who isn't nice, or who might be downright abbrasive....

Has anyone out there ever felt a completely illogical physical pull to someone they couldn't stand...who they couldn't stop arguing with when they were around each other?

Okay, myabe I went on longer than I meant...this just got the ball rolling for me wondering about how an individuals sexual experiences, reading materials, and influentual people may affect the formation of their ideas of what kind of people have what kind of sexuality. I think I need more thoughts from more people to see if I see any trends....

Edited to add: I've never really discussed the topic of sexuality with people who have widely different outlooks and opinions than my own (when the subject has come up anyway, it only tends to be around people who I've noticed have very similar attitudes and opinions). So, this is something I'm genuinely curious about...I like looking at things from different angles, I'd just like to get another perspective from which different people think here so I can understand why there is such a big divergance of opinion on the topic.

liquidscissors

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:57 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

It's safe to say that when you're sixteen/seventeen/eighteen and you're out shagging for Australia, you have no idea what sex entails beyond the initial 'this feels good/that feels bad' and 'sex is A but not B', or even just limiting it down to 'adults have sex, now that I've had sex, I must be an adult'. I don't care how mature you are, a developed understanding of human dynamics doesn't really start until you're twenty-five or so. (For the record, I'm twenty-one and freely admit that while I can play men like a fiddle, I have no idea of how to relate to women. It comes with time.)

Having sex doesn't mean you're sexually liberated. It just means you're whipping your knickers off and either having a good or bad time.

Sexual liberation comes from understanding exactly where fucking rates on the general scale of life importance (reasonably low - you're not going to die without it), how it's going to affect you and yours, long and short term effects, that it's pleasurable, that it's a weapon, that it will change how others think of you and how you think of yourself... and then deciding whether you're ready or not for sex and all it's baggage. That's sexual liberation by contemporary definition.

As for your environment dictating how you respond to sex as stimuli and as an action, never fall into the trap of thinking that it's all to do with external forces and the basic values of others (your parents, your school, your partner).
While those things are important, ultimately sexual responses are formed by the individual according to their own comfort levels.

How would Hermione respond sexually? Damned if I know, there aren't enough hints in canon to say how she would act with a man or woman in a romantic or sexual situation. She was too young and too inexperienced to see Viktor as anything other than a friend, although I highly doubt the same was felt in return (c'mon. A teenage boy does not want to be 'just friends', not even with a buck-toothed, smart-mouthed little swot), and her idolisation of authority figures is just that: idolisation.

While she is a strong little girl in her own hard-headed way, she does tend to get overemotional and break down quite easily, and she always turns firstly to others for help and guidance (books, teachers, rules). While I don't think that translates into her being desperate for a good whipping by a Big Strong Man, it wouldn't be that hard to find out exactly what her buttons are. If you played her the right way, who knows what you could make her think?

anna_kat

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:40 am

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

Quote:

Or maybe I'm the strange one thinking that it's possible for someone to make mistakes or have their judgement clouded over lust...or even to feel lust for someone who isn't nice, or who might be downright abbrasive...

I assume that every woman past the age of consent has made errors in judgement. Lusting after someone abrasive, well, it's got something to do with a woman's sense of self-worth, wouldn't you say? I imagine that it would be difficult to retain a lot of self-respect, when having sex with a man who belittles the woman he sleeps with, during or after. I for one like to feel appreciated. That must be, why I think that Hermione does too.

Quote:

Has anyone out there ever felt a completely illogical physical pull to someone they couldn't stand...

Quote:

Having sex doesn't mean you're sexually liberated. It just means you're whipping your knickers off and either having a good or bad time.

Yes

Quote:

Sexual responses are formed by the individual according to their own comfort levels

True enough. Maybe there are women who get stimulated despite feeling completely humilated by their sexual partner, or the smirking deatheater who drools over her degradation. It's way over my comfort level as a reader though, and it had me turn away from many stories that I thought had promise.

Quote:

she always turns firstly to others for help and guidance (books, teachers, rules)

When has she ever turned to teachers for guidance? She tries to get Harry to do so, but I can't remember a single instance where she has done that herself.

liquidscissors

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:00 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Quote:

When has she ever turned to teachers for guidance? She tries to get Harry to do so, but I can't remember a single instance where she has done that herself.

Hermione took it upon herself to tell McGonagall about Harry's new broom in PoA. She pushed Harry and he resisted, so she took it upon herself to speak to the head of house.

Guidance isn't always in the form of a Q&A session. More often than not, it's dropping a suggestion and seeing if your superiors approve or refute your opinion. In this case, McGonagall agreed with her.

anna_kat

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:33 pm

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

[quote="liquidscissors"]
Hermione took it upon herself to tell McGonagall about Harry's new broom in PoA. [/quote]

Ah, yes, I had forgotten about that.

anna_kat

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:01 pm

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

RachelW wrote:

Curious here...anyone out there finally 'get some' as a teen, and then discovered they really liked it? That it was perhaps even fun...enjoyable...and something to look forward to doing again?

Well, what reason is there to do it again, other than finding it enjoyable?

Quote:

What if...as a teenager, with lets say, a teenagers lack of perspective on the bigger picture, they decided to get some on a regular basis...and what if they had someone who was avalible to them, but they didn't have to worry about emotional entanglements, just good sex, and conversation between orgasms?

What bigger picture is needed to enjoy sex?

Up until a few years ago, I didn't know that it was not normal for teenagers in the western world to fool around. I thought it was perfectly acceptable and even expected for both boys and girls, before settling down. None of my friends was a virgin when she got married, and no one expected them to be. Teenage pregnancy is rare and contraception readily available. There is no pressure whatsoever for a girl to remain chaste until her wedding night. There will be exceptions no doubt, but not among people I know.

RachelW

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:09 pm

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

anna_kat wrote:

Up until a few years ago, I didn't know that it was not normal for teenagers in the western world to fool around. I thought it was perfectly acceptable and even expected for both boys and girls, before settling down. None of my friends was a virgin when she got married, and no one expected them to be. Teenage pregnancy is rare and contraception readily available. There is no pressure whatsoever for a girl to remain chaste until her wedding night. There will be exceptions no doubt, but not among people I know.

I think it's a religious thing. My parents are deeply entrenched in Baptist thinking. They think alcohol in any form is bad...though in recent years they've realized that some people are able to have a beer or glass of wine without it becoming a major big deal.

Anyway, when I was 17, and my mom went through my stuff and found my birth control pills, it may have well have been the end of the world. She cried, she raged, she went on and on about the evils of sex...demanded to know when I was last 'sexually active', told me how irresponsible I was (I countered that I thought getting on the pill was a responsible action, lol). Grounded me, started monotoring phone calls, and not letting me out anywhere on my own. Several years down the road, I got pregnant before my husband and I were legally married(we were engaged). She thought he was horrible that he would 'do that' *to me* (as if I had nothing to do with it) when we're not married and it just goes to show what kind of person he is(implying he was some kind of evil sexual predator). Really, way over the top hysterical reaction to sex outside marriage. It was a deep, dark family secret that her sister 'had to' get married in a hurry, something she still thought was shameful 20 years after the fact.

So, maybe this reaction is extreme, but it's what I grew up around...and then pretty much rebeled against. This is probably much more common in America than in Europe.

However, as my sister-in-law told her son when he got married to the first woman who would sleep with him... "You don't make a pie out of the first apple you pick."...so among the non-zelot types it is acceptable that young people will test the waters before getting married.

Anyway, trying to bring this back on-topic for this board...mind is pulling a blank. But, maybe it's a good idea for American fanfic writers to have a better understanding of what the attitudes in the UK are on the subject (like, Hermione's parents would never disown her for getting pregnant out of wedlock, one of my biggest pet peeves in fanfic).

Sex within the MLC though...I wonder if it might be realistic to look at the sex as the only good thing about the situation....as in "This is a horrible situation, but at least the sex is good..."

But, that's also an offensive outlook to some. I'm just kind of wondering if Hermione had a more relaxed attitude to sex rather than a puritan outlook, she might see it that way. Maybe Snape might see it that way...even though they're both forced to marry, at least there's one good thing about it? But, nevermind if I'm just streching it.

Diana

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:00 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I think it is important to look at not only the actions, but to also look at the context (or situation) that create the actions. For example, I don't care how many times someone tries to tell me that young people are "just that way" about sex, not all young people are. I could understand the situation if it were say Hermione and Ron, or Hermione and Harry (shudder), but Hermione and Severus fornicating like bunny rabbits when they still loathe one another is not something that I can see.

My biggest problem with the whole situation, and this is all fanfiction, isn't that Hermione becomes sex crazed, or enjoys sex. I have no problem with a young person enjoying the intimate aspects of their relationships. However, the key word is: relationship.

Generally speaking Hermione is "courted" into a relationship with Severus by him holding some type of sexual power over her. It isn't that she enjoys the relations or has them often with him that bugs me. I get annoyed when I read where Hermione starts to see Severus in a "new light" outside the bedroom simply because he is good in the bedroom. It isn't realistic. Usually Severus hasn't changed his attitude toward her one ounce in their everyday dealings, he is just sleeping with her and her emotions are manipulated in a way that makes her think she is in love.

Canon Hermione is simply too clever for this type of thing to occur. I think that one of the biggest problems is that most writers do not have a firm grasp on Hermione as a character. They do not understand that cleverness does not automatically assume that one is smart. Hermione is book smart and clever. She is not some child prodigy. She is simply a clever girl who studies extra hard. Authors tend to forget this aspect of Hermione. They don't forget the smart part, in fact they beat that aspect of Hermione into the ground, but they tend to leave out the cleverness. She isn't easily tricked.

All times are GMT

View next topic View previous topic Page 2 of 4 Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next Sycophant Hex Forum Index ~ The Common Room

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum