Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - Which ships are worst written in fanfic, and why?

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< The Common Room ~ Which ships are worst written in fanfic, and why?

azazello

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:29 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Discussions seem to be running a bit dry here. So let's kick off with something new. I'm hijacking a good thread on Fiction Alley, a bit, but I suspect not many folks here post over there. I do both.

Which - per you, the responders, do you think are the worst handled ships by ficcers?

Now before you start - I'd just say that I think most ships can be done well, if the writer takes the usual care. for instance, even Severus/Sirius can be carried by a good fanfic writer, either by angry sex, or by setting up a situation that brings them together. Anyway, here are my ships that I think tend to be awful:

1. SS/HG. I'm sorry to say. The majority of writing, now that this ship has become much more mainstream, is poor. Far too many writers assume the reader buys the ship, and therefore fails to set it up convincingly. Canonically, Snape does not like Hermione. She appears to respect him, but that's as far as it goes. The best of the early "classic" fics had good reasons for the ship happening. (My own favourite reason: "Because she asked me. Twice." That's from Letter from Exile, btw). Now, a lot of those set ups are considered cliche now, but they were not when written. I'd personally rather read a well written "Hermione is working for the Aurors and needs Snape to help her track down..." because even if it is cliched, it works.

2. SS/HP. That's my favourite slash pairing. I suppose it's the slash equivalent of SS/HG, but with added angst. There's a big dimension of mutual dislike that a writer needs to get over. And yet, to me, there's sparks flying between these two in canon, and I could somehow see it. They have a deal in common, and this pairing can be done. But please, not "Harry noticed his Potions master had a lovely arse under those robes" or, "Harry had changed over summer and noticed Snape was actually quite sexy."

3. RL/SB. God this is slash. I expect slash to be hot. That's why I read it, for the same reason as the rest of the female fandom, because it is about the sex. Mostly this pairing is about as exciting as a used teabag. Remus is always the submissive girlie one, they are always calling each other silly diminutive names, like Remi and Siri. Old married couple is right.

So, come on, what pairing do you think gets screwed up worst?

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Snegurochka

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:50 pm

Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 60

Quote:

Remus is always the submissive girlie one, they are always calling each other silly diminutive names, like Remi and Siri. Old married couple is right.

LOL! I have to completely agree with you! I started out my fandom as a rabid Sirius/Remus shipper, even before I knew there was a fandom out there, or knew what a "ship" was... hell, just from reading OotP it seemed so obvious to me. It's still my soft-spot pairing, if only because I know what it's like to fall in love with your best (same sex) friend, and I buy it as the most realistic, canon scenario of all potential canon couples.

That said... I have stopped reading, and writing, fics of this pairing, because they're god-awful. "Remi" and "Siri" is right. (Although don't get me started on the Snupin fangurls I've encountered who write about "Remi" and "Sevvie." *shudders*) Rolling Eyes

It's too bad that Remus/Sirius seems to have become the vanilla-boring pairing of the fandom (it seems to me). I think it still has possibilities for interesting and original fics, but the pairing is being overrun with sissy crap. (Don't even get me started on submissive!Remus in that pairing).

Don't go to any of the S/R-only archives. *shudders again* Smile

Peace,
~Snegurochka

Edit Forgot to mention that of course the pairing isn't universally written badly, and that I've become quite fond of a couple of nice S/R fics at Serpensortia by Cravache.

Last edited by Snegurochka on Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total

liquidscissors

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:51 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Harry/Draco - I think I've read three, possibly four fics that really made this work. Everything else is just completely bananas or features leather pants.

Lupin/Snape - another bitchplz ship. If you can't justify a werewolf and someone who probably carries a silver bullet around his neck plausibly getting together, then put down your pencil right now.

Hermione/Draco - AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No, just no.

Snape/anyone - seriously.

As an aside, the Remus/Sirius omgtheirloveissocanon!!!1! thing is getting old. Arthur and Molly are canon. Remus and Sirius is subtext, and reader-implied subtext at that.

Diana

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:27 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

Quote:

Remus is always the submissive girlie one, they are always calling each other silly diminutive names, like Remi and Siri. Old married couple is right.

Am I the only one rooting for Sirius to stumble upon Lupin while the full moon is high in the sky? Seriously, notice their animal sides -- Lupin is a vicious beast and Sirius is a Snuffles puppy dog -- enough said.

Quote:

Hermione/Draco - AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No, just no.

This is the ship that whenever I see it, I get a strong urge to stab my eyes out with a dull pencil. Agree. Completely. Now, shall we stop talking about it...thank you. *shudder*

Snegurochka

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:04 am

Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 60

Quote:

As an aside, the Remus/Sirius omgtheirloveissocanon!!!1! thing is getting old. Arthur and Molly are canon. Remus and Sirius is subtext, and reader-implied subtext at that.

Thanks. The omggrossSiriusandRemusarenotGAYYYYY!!! thing is, too.

Leaving aside the debate about what pairings are and are not 'canon' (since gay and straight readers will always differ on this, as far as I can tell, and I long ago gave up trying to convince people who refuse to hear my arguments), what I meant was that as far as fandom pairings go, I think Remus/Sirius is one of the more realistic ones. If we're going to complain about all the badly-written pairings that are so unrealistic (Snape/Lupin and Draco/Hermione as being two of those on offer in this thread, I see), I would like to argue that while Sirius/Remus is often badly written, at least it's plausible.

Also, I think this thread is in danger of insulting all writers of the pairings it mentions. Seems to me it's better to stick with the original question of 'which pairings get screwed up the worst' and WHY, rather than, 'which ship do you personally not like'?

Um, that's all. Not trying to be bitchy, just... you know. Smile

Peace,
~Snegurochka

liquidscissors

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:38 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Settle down, lovie.

The constant justification of the RL/SB ship - as if any justification beyond 'it's fanfiction and the right writer can make it work for me' is needed - as being canon by a frighteningly large section of fandom gets up my canon-lovin' nose. Gay or straight has nothing to do with it (but thanks for making the link between me marking out canon/fanon and OMG I HATE TEH GAY - who knew I could be an oppressor without even trying?), just that somehow people can't see the glaringly large difference between canon and personally implied subtext.

Until JKR confirms it with a 'hey, that Remus and Sirius? Totally fucking', you're out of luck with the canon card.

With love,
THE HETRO-FACIST SEX POLICE.

azazello

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:32 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Canon is what happens in the books, and to a lesser extent in the movies, though it should be said that most writers allow compromise to their book canon to take place when it is adapted for a movie. Therefore in my official status as a Canon Nazi (I was recently called such on fandom_wank - deranged egomaniac and canon nazi to be exact) I would say that book canon always outranks movie canon in a dispute.

The book is directly from the head of the author.

Therefore any canon pairing is supported by the fact that it was actually proven in the books. That it was referred to as two canon characters having a romantic relationship. That does not have to mean sex. But there should be clear romantic intent.

Accordingly these are the canon ships in the Potterverse:

Lily/James
Lucius/Narcissa
Arthur/Molly
Frank/Alice
Viktor/Hermione
Harry/Cho
Ginny/Michael
Ginny/Dean (I think it was Dean)
Vernon/Petunia
Draco/Pansy (possibly)
Bill/Fleur
Percy/Penelope

So far as I know, that's pretty exhaustive. JKR is not that interested in shipping, being as she has other plans for her stories.

Anything else is fanon. And that includes Sirius and Lupin. I'd also say that any canon potential about that ship was kiboshed by the fact that Lupin didn't look like a broken hearted werewolf who had lost his lifelong mate (because we fanon kiddies all know that werewolves mate for life...). Shippers must have crowed with glee when Alan Rickman made that old married couple jibe in the movie, but as I always say, the movies are not canon. And just as well considering what a snafu they've made of it so far.

For most of us, the canon ships are pretty dull, as are the fanon ships that are somewhat mainstream. I think for instance that Hermione is going to end up with Ron, but I find that is a pretty boring premise for a story of my own, so I write otherwise. In point of fact, I'm not even all that interested in Hermione, becaus there's only one canon character that interests me in the slightest, and I think if anyone cannot figure that out by now, well, I give up. I only pair Hermione with Severus because I'm attracted by the scandal potential if such a pairing were to happen in canon, and that tends to be a big theme.

Anyway, so back to Sirius and Remus. I've a number of views on it. The first is I find Marauder era stories where they are a teenage couple totally idiotic, because they posit that two gay boys would find cheerful acceptance by their peers in the 1970's.

Dream on. I lived in the 1970's and while I knew a number of adult gay men (most of my best friends were gay at that point) not a one had dared emerge from the closet until they left home and were in their twenties and living in the general acceptance of somewhere like London. Elsewhere, to admit to being gay still meant beating up, or ostracism.

Fast forward, and Sirius Black is banged up for life when he is round about 21 or 22 and there's therefore little time for this relationship to get going. So I'd argue that there is little canon support for this pairing - no more than other fanon ships which are popular.

But see, there does not need to be.

Because as I keep saying, set up is all. The first "odd" pairing I came into was SS/HG and like most of fandom, thought, "Ick!" at first, then I read a couple of (lesser known good) stories which took a relationship that was very private, some years down the road, and made me believe. My views on the so called classics: Fire and the Rose, Roman Holiday, PtQ and all those are too well known to bear rehashing. The only good early "classic" is letter because it looks at the consequences, and the pitfalls of that ship. Bear in mind Textualsphinx makes it all to clear that this relationship might be doomed from the off.

So, a ship cannot just be assumed. RL/SB - the first problems you are going to have to overcome are the ones I mentioned. If a writer does that, AND keeps them both in character, I take my hat off, and will read. Provided they are not turned into soppy girls blouses.

That's what kept me away from reading slash for a long time. Feminisation of characters.

Razzberry

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:50 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

I think the reason the 'big' ships are the worst-written (aside from the obvious point about numbers) is that they *are* so big and popular.

In SS/HG, for example, I see three assumptions commonly made:

1. The pairing is intuitive and makes perfect sense from a canon, fanon and real life perspective
2. The fact that some form of the words 'Snape' and 'Hermione' appear in the summary mean that the two will end up together
3. Everyone who is going to look at the story is a shipper

Starting from these three assumptions, there is seldom much time given to the why.

That doesn't mean I haven't read some interesting fics in this ship, because I have. I've quite enjoyed a few. But in order to do so, I just had to forget that these were characters I knew anything about going into the fic and had to read from the perspective of someone picking a book up off a shelf, which I don't mind doing.

I've read fics that keep the two characters largely true to canon, as much as fanfic ever does, given that if you're writing from anyone's pov besides Harry's you're sailing uncharted waters. I've read fics where the 'how' was perfectly acceptable to me and logical and made sense. But the 'why' is always missing.

Now, admittedly, I am not well-read in the fandom so I am absolutely not saying that these fics don't exist. But the handful I've seen that even come close to the question have given it a line or two that was fairly vague. Some random line about his admiring her intelligence or her admiring... whatever it is she admires.

When I look at ss/hg, I'm at a decided disadvantage because I think I must be the only person on the planet who just cannot understand how these two could be a couple. I don't know what they could possibly find attractive in each other. I know what women could find attractive in Snape and what men could find attractive in Hermione, but I can't see them finding one another attractive, and I've yet to find the fic that spells that out.

I find the same thing with the Lupin slash stories. Whether it's Lupin/Snape or Lupin/Black or Lupin/whomever, we always start with certain base assumptions, and they're largely the same as the ones for SSHG.

1. The two characters are an intuitive pairing from a canonical and logical standpoint.
2. The two characters are certainly gay.
3. Everyone who is reading is reading is going to accept the above two statements.

This is very common. It's my second biggest peeve with slash stories (the first being the wimpification of one of the characters to shove them into the role)

Slash tends to be full of what I call 'sexplanations'-- ie, everything from the way Pettigrew betrayed the Potters to Snape's rivalry with MWPP is based on some sort of sexual tension. Snape hates James and Sirius because he was in love with Lupin and Lupin chose to run with the cool boys. Peter hero-worshipped James and Sirius because they traded sexual favors with him. Sirius figured out Lupin was a werewolf because they were lovers and Sirius would notice when he came in with new scars. Snape became a Death Eater because his lover, Lucius, begged him. Ooh, there's my contribution to the list-- Snape/Lucius. As a whole, slash is full of that kind of nonsense (though sometimes it is well-written and interesting nonsense)

I think that the slash pairings have fantastic potential. I'm making my own attempt at one right now, and attempting to avoid the things that irritate me about most slash stories, and I'll admit that this is the most difficult story I've written and the one I have to think the most carefully about and the one I have to reign the muse in the most tightly over. I'm determined to write this Snape/Lupin story where none of the characters begins gay, none of them turns into a wuss and without playing the angst card, and this is hard work. It's particularly tempting to turn one of them into a wuss, because it would just be *easier*

I've seldom seen slash that's well done, though.

And, finally, I hate to say it because I'm such a firm believer in OFCs, but...

Snape/OFC really is rife with nonsense. I know it isn't a 'ship' per se, but close enough. And so often, the OFC really is interchangable enough that it might as well be a ship. I think the OFC is the most likely solution to the question of 'who would canon!Snape most likely fall for, if he were going to fall for anyone?' The thing is, the OFC is very often an invitation for writers to go wild and do crazy things with the story. I know this one has been well-documented, but even a writer who starts out with a perfectly good OFC will too often end up with a super-heroine by the end of the story.

I think that in general, the entire fandom is pretty poorly written, in all honesty. The places where you find the most gems seem to be the off-the-wall pairings, because it would take talent to go for a Trelawney and Lupin-- they're so *not* intuitive that if anyone tries it, it's almost guaranteed to be refreshing.

Aestel

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:47 am

Joined: 18 Mar 2005 Posts: 10

I'd like to second Razzberry's post, especially concerning the common (and generally fatal) assumption that certain couples are intutive. Just a couple of comments:

Quote:

I think the OFC is the most likely solution to the question of 'who would canon!Snape most likely fall for, if he were going to fall for anyone?'

And herein lies the problem that nearly every one of these stories fails to address: Snape wants things that are not good for him. Witness the DA post. He'd like the world to bow down and acknowledge him as a big bad dangerous dark wizard. Therefore, the irony of Snape's ideal woman is that she'd be prefectly wrong for him. God, I'd love to see a Snape OFC fic which dealt with that.

Quote:

It's my second biggest peeve with slash stories

Yeah, I read this as "Peeves slash stories" and was suitably squicked... and then strangely compelled to imagine how a Peeves slash story would play out.

anna_kat

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:26 pm

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

azazello wrote:

In point of fact, I'm not even all that interested in Hermione, becaus there's only one canon character that interests me in the slightest, and I think if anyone cannot figure that out by now, well, I give up. I only pair Hermione with Severus because I'm attracted by the scandal potential if such a pairing were to happen in canon, and that tends to be a big theme.

Lol. I like Hermione. I read her paired with Snape because he is the only truly interesting male canon character, aside from Harry, who is her friend and should not become her lover.

All ships have self-inserting authors, regardless of how they name their female character/younger male character, but I find HG/SS the worst written, much worse than Snape/OFC in fact, closely followed by HP/SS.

It's not just the sheer idiocy of many plots, it's the lack of plausible characterisation that makes most stories so boring. Those who like evil male characters tend to give them the emotional range of the Frankenstein monster before he was alive, whereas sap addicts seem to take their ideas straight off Hallmark cards. But the worst is the pervasive view that anything is permissible, as long as Happily Ever After looms at the horizon. In this there is no difference between both ships. And I am not even getting into mpreg. Chicks with dicks are bad enough, pregnant chicks with dicks are one violation of nature's laws too many for my comfort.

Of course it is entirely possible that Malfoy ships of any kind are much worse. I wouldn't know.

All in all, I find that genfic authors develop their characters and their plots with more care and a better knowledge of canon than the majority of shippers.

liquidscissors

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:26 pm

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Quote:

All in all, I find that genfic authors develop their characters and their plots with more care and a better knowledge of canon than the majority of shippers.

And we get screamed at the most by rabid fangirls for not having the characters go at it like hammer and tongs.

No one wins!

Sulwen

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:23 pm

Joined: 27 Feb 2005 Posts: 11 Location: USA

I love slash. I read it all the time. It doesn't squick me. But for some reason, every HP/SS story I find has me going "Eww!" by the end of the first chapter. I wonder if it's just me or if people who ship those two just can't write...

_________________
All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost

-J.R.R. Tolkien

Lady Anne

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:58 am

Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 4

Okay, here's my POV. I've read some SS/HG fanon that puts JKR to shame. In fact, I prefer SS/HG fanon over canon. IMO, there are no limits with fanon and if you can put canon to the side (like I can, easily), fanon fics can totally make all the sense in the world. I think if you want something realistic, you should stick with the ships that JKR has laid out for us. That being said, any ship can have really great authors and any ship can have really bad authors. I've read lousy HG/RW, but I've read great HG/DM. I've never read a truly interesting AD/MM. I've read good HP/GW fics and bad HP/LL fics. I think the worst writers and the best writers can be found within the most unrealistic to canon pairings. JMO

Anne

_________________
~Anne~

anna_kat

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:41 pm

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

Lady Anne wrote:

In fact, I prefer SS/HG fanon over canon. IMO, there are no limits with fanon and if you can put canon to the side (like I can, easily), fanon fics can totally make all the sense in the world.

I can't put canon aside because canon is what I am a fan of. That's the whole point of fanfiction for me.

goddessofsnark

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:08 pm

Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 7 Location: New Jersey

Aestel wrote:

Yeah, I read this as "Peeves slash stories" and was suitably squicked... and then strangely compelled to imagine how a Peeves slash story would play out.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that.

As for my pet peeve ships-

Ron/Hermoine. Most of them are so bland, so boring, so not interesting.

Harry/Draco-The tight leather pants comment is far, far, too true.

Harry/Hermione-This is the worst of them all, because usually its either making the two of them so sickeningly sweet or so absolutely horrible that its impossible to read.

SS/HG either has a really good fic or a really bad fic, especially now that it's become more and more popular. I miss the days where the only fics were good ones...

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