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<  Personae  ~  Severus Snape - Potions Master.

Lariff
Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:53 am Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Calgary
Speaking of the Master vs. master, here's a hilarious little fic concerning that:
http://www.riddikulus.org/authors/cecelle/OPM.html

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Cecelle
Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 4:29 am Reply with quote
Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Idaho
azazello wrote:
Dont have the link to the interview. But I assure the sceptical that it exists and thereby nukes all your Hermione is apprenticed to Snape scenarios quite adequately.


Well, just saying the interview exists doesn't make it so. I've searched high and low for a quote for years (since this is a pet peeve, LOL), and have never found it. That said, I wholly agree: master = teacher.
Also, since HBP it doesn't hold true (as it did previously) that only Snape is referred to as master of a specific subject. Slughorn is referred to as "Potions master" and Flitwick as "Charms master."
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Diana
Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:58 pm Reply with quote
Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116
Cecelle wrote:
azazello wrote:
Dont have the link to the interview. But I assure the sceptical that it exists and thereby nukes all your Hermione is apprenticed to Snape scenarios quite adequately.


Well, just saying the interview exists doesn't make it so. I've searched high and low for a quote for years (since this is a pet peeve, LOL), and have never found it. That said, I wholly agree: master = teacher.
Also, since HBP it doesn't hold true (as it did previously) that only Snape is referred to as master of a specific subject. Slughorn is referred to as "Potions master" and Flitwick as "Charms master."

With two separate people telling you that it exist, I think it's safe to say that it does in fact exist.

Add onto that fact that both of those individuals happen to be British (and just might -- might! -- know what they are talking about as relates to British schooling design) and well, I think it's safe to say that both individuals know what they are talking about.

Besides, in book six Snape is the Defence Against the Dark Arts master. Now, unless the Ministry/Dumbledore/the Hogwarts Board of Governors (excepting Lucius Malfoy) accept servitude under Voldemort as a means of "professional qualification", I think it's safe to assume that Snape got the Potions job when he applied b/c Dumbledore didn't want to tempt Snape. Quite appropos too, as we've recently seen.

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Cecelle
Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:41 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Idaho
Diana wrote:

With two separate people telling you that it exist, I think it's safe to say that it does in fact exist.


The closest I have been able to find is Alan Rickman saying in an interview that Snape is only a lowly school master and would like to be something more important, like a powerful Dark wizard. Which doesn't count quite like a JKR quote would. So if anyone has a link, I would appreciate it.

Quote:
Add onto that fact that both of those individuals happen to be British (and just might -- might! -- know what they are talking about as relates to British schooling design) and well, I think it's safe to say that both individuals know what they are talking about.


I am not sure about the tone here - I was agreeing with Azazello.

I have no doubts she (and by extention anyone else who talked about the British school system) is right in her/their conclusions re: Master of Potions vs Potions master. The whole "Potions Master and apprentice thing" is a pet peeve of mine (and actually someone linked to my short fic regarding that pet peeve a couple posts up.) I dislike that premise quite a bit.

I was in no way, shape, or form questioning anyone's knowledge about the British school system (again, I completely agree with everything said regarding that subject.) And I completely agree with the conclusion based on that knowledge that master = teacher (not a guild-type master or higher level of professional qualification.) In fact, it seems obvious to me that that is what she (JKR) is talking about. Snape himself saying "I, a master of this school" in PoA pretty much seals that deal, doesn't it?

The only thing I am wondering about is the existence of that JKR interview/web chat quote. I really wasn't trying to offend (and if I did, I apologize.) I think it *might* just be possible that the interview remembered was not, in fact, a JKR quote, but something said by someone else.

As I said, the "Snape as Potions Master with apprentices" idea instead of as plain old "Potions master = teacher who teaches Potions" is a fan fiction pet peeve of mine, and if a JKR quote exists that clears that up once and for all, I would really like to know where it is. Any help would be appreciated. But I can appreciate that no one wants to spend the time to hunt down the quote. That's fine.

Quote:
Besides, in book six Snape is the Defence Against the Dark Arts master. Now, unless the Ministry/Dumbledore/the Hogwarts Board of Governors (excepting Lucius Malfoy) accept servitude under Voldemort as a means of "professional qualification", I think it's safe to assume that Snape got the Potions job when he applied b/c Dumbledore didn't want to tempt Snape. Quite appropos too, as we've recently seen.


And I quite agree with that - it is obvious from canon, I think, that Snape really didn't want the Potions job, but took it because it was the job he was offered. And I quite agree with you regarding Dumbledore's reason why.

Re: book six, I don't think Snape is referred to as the Defence master in HBP (while Slughorn is often referred to as the Potions master), so that doesn't help our case.

From HBP: "Professor Snape, meanwhile," said Dumbledore, raising his voice so that it carried over all the muttering, "will be taking the position of Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher."
...

"He must have known a spell we didn't," whispered McGonagall. "After all - he was the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. ..."



It would have been nice if they would have referred to him that way, because then I could have pointed to the passage and said, "See, it just DOES mean school master" when arguing the point. Smile (Since Snape can't possibly have attained mastery level qualifications in both subjects in the few years he wasn't at Hogwarts between leaving school and starting to teach!)

But at least in HBP Flitwick is for the first time referred to as the Charms master (after always being the Charms professor or Charms teacher in previous books) so that is something ( it at least blows the "but only the Potions master among all the teachers is ever referred to as 'master'" argument right out of the water.)

Really, I am not trying to be argumentative or offend (and if I have offended, I apologize (again)) I completely agree that the 'master' in 'Potions master' refers to school master.

All I was saying that I would really like to know where that quote is(because this subject has come up numerous time in discussions, and it would be so nice to have a JKR quote to point to, yet I haven't been able to find it, despite extensive attempts to find it in assorted archives (and believe me, I *have* looked.)) It is quite possible that I missed it despite my best attempts, so any help would be appreciated.

And I have had that argument with people who ARE British and familiar with the British school system (and not young teens either), and still argued for 'Potions master' in canon as being something more than mere 'school master'. So it really would be nice to have that quote.


Cecelle
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Diana
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:49 am Reply with quote
Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116
Quote:
Re: book six, I don't think Snape is referred to as the Defence master in HBP (while Slughorn is often referred to as the Potions master), so that doesn't help our case.

No, in book six he is not referred to as the Defence Against the Dark Arts master; however, it is implied. My point in saying such was to point out that he was still just a school master. Had he been teaching Ancient Runes, he would have been the Ancient Runes master. Had he been teaching Muggle Studies -- scandalous! -- he would have been the Muggle Studies master. Transfiguration (master), Arthimancy (master), Divination (master), etc., etc. I think you get the point.

Also, regardless of what he is called -- teacher or master, it makes no difference -- in book six once he took up the post of Defence teacher/master/whatever, there are still two very good examples of why he is not some Master in either field. One, he'd been gunning for the job (Defence) since he took up a post at Hogwarts -- JKR has stated as fact, many of the students have alluded to it since the beginning of the series, Dumbledore alludes to it, etc., etc. -- and that clearly shows that his interest in Potions extended only so far as that was the job Dumbledore gave him (if he were a true Master in the field of Potions, he would have applied for the Potions job to begin with). Two, Dumbledore would have not given his "qualified, professional Potions Master" the Defence job when it's clearly a position that can be filled w/ease (he's managed it easily enough for the previous five years, what difference would year six make?).

I'm not disagreeing w/what has been stated; I'm clarifying my position.

As for the quote, I'd be happy to pass it along to you if I could find it; however, I've also looked and cannot -- it was at least two years ago when I read it.

Quote:
And I have had that argument with people who ARE British and familiar with the British school system (and not young teens either), and still argued for 'Potions master' in canon as being something more than mere 'school master'. So it really would be nice to have that quote.

Well, I hate to say that those people are idiots, but...they're idiots. It's been over 20 years since I experienced the British school system -- and I realise that some things have changed -- but I recognised instantly that 'master' meant teacher. And if these people you refer to are of my generation, I cannot see how they did not instantly recognise the usage either.

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Cecelle
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:42 am Reply with quote
Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Idaho
Diana wrote:

No, in book six he is not referred to as the Defence Against the Dark Arts master; however, it is implied. My point in saying such was to point out that he was still just a school master. Had he been teaching Ancient Runes, he would have been the Ancient Runes master. Had he been teaching Muggle Studies -- scandalous! -- he would have been the Muggle Studies master. Transfiguration (master), Arthimancy (master), Divination (master), etc., etc. I think you get the point.


But the point those who argue for "Potions master" as entailing some special qualification would make is that previous to HBP, not a single other teacher ever was referred to as master (or mistress.) You point out that he would be the Divination master if he taught divination (and if you read my fic, you will see that I make that exact point in there, too), but the point THEY would make is that JKR never did. Not once. There is no mention of a Divination mistress or Transfiguration mistress or Defense master.

Other than headmistress/headmaster, only Snape was called master of his subject. And now, in HBP, he ISN'T called master of his subject any more, but now is referred to as the DADA teacher.

All of which is, it think, where the confusion came from.

Quote:
and that clearly shows that his interest in Potions extended only so far as that was the job Dumbledore gave him (if he were a true Master in the field of Potions, he would have applied for the Potions job to begin with).


Quite.


Quote:

Well, I hate to say that those people are idiots, but...they're idiots. It's been over 20 years since I experienced the British school system -- and I realise that some things have changed -- but I recognised instantly that 'master' meant teacher. And if these people you refer to are of my generation, I cannot see how they did not instantly recognise the usage either.


They are your generation, then (as am I), and university-educated, very bright individuals, as well as good writers. They simply thought that things Muggle don't always translate to things wizard, and since only Snape is ever called master (and no other teacher, ever, no exception, is referred to that way in all the previous five books (until HBP broke that trend)), that maybe there was more to it than that.

I don't agree (I think there are plenty of things in the books that argue against that view) but that doesn't necessarily make their reasoning stupid.

Cecelle
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Diana
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:28 am Reply with quote
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Quote:
They are your generation, then (as am I), and university-educated, very bright individuals, as well as good writers. They simply thought that things Muggle don't always translate to things wizard, and since only Snape is ever called master (and no other teacher, ever, no exception, is referred to that way in all the previous five books (until HBP broke that trend)), that maybe there was more to it than that.

I don't agree (I think there are plenty of things in the books that argue against that view) but that doesn't necessarily make their reasoning stupid.

Er, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Their reasoning isn't sound (and, yes, I do maintain it as a bit stupid as they should clearly know otherwise) b/c saying that they 'thought that things Muggle don't always translate to things wizard' would be equal to disregarding all of the other British exclusive (I'm guessing here, never attended American schooling until uni and graduate school) instances. Houses, house points, etc., etc. Sure, these things were not the norm for every school, but it isn't likely that they would not know about them.

It smacks of fanon cliche to me -- an attempt to make a story appear more interesting than it is, a crutch if you will. How to get Snape and a student into a position where they can shag? Make him her Master! I won't even get into the various authority figure/submissive lesser undertones present in many of these stories.

Of course, I'm one of the most picky readers in fandom -- and not just the HP fandom, either -- so I think most stuff is crap. No offence to the writers, that's just my opinion. There are, of course, exceptions. I'm just hard to please on a personal reading level. It doesn't affect my admin status -- I'll read anything as an admin and apply the site rules accordingly.

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Cecelle
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:44 am Reply with quote
Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 4 Location: Idaho
Quote:

Houses, house points, etc., etc. Sure, these things were not the norm for every school, but it isn't likely that they would not know about them.


I think most everyone (at least girls) who grew up in Britain (or Europe) around our time would have been familiar with the basic boarding school set-up through the books of Enid Blyton, if nothing else, LOL (however unrealistic those may be!) Were those books as ubiquitous in Britain as they were in Germany? (The O'Sullivan Twins went by "Hanni und Nanni" in Germany.)

But no, I don't think it is stupid to think that the term "master" , since in the books it is not commonly but very sparely and selectively applied, might mean something else than it usually does. If JKR doesn't call any other teacher except Snape master or mistress (until HBP,) it isn't stupid to suppose that that might be purposefully done. So agree to disagree it shall have to be. Smile

Quote:
How to get Snape and a student into a position where they can shag? Make him her Master! I won't even get into the various authority figure/submissive lesser undertones present in many of these stories.


I don't really care for that sort of story for the same sort of reason I don't like teacher/student. Generally, it's a way for an other to get around the moral quagmire of teacher/student, because the apprentice is of age and has finished school and that is supposed to make things all right, but I don't think an authority figure starting an affair with a person under their authority is ok. That said, one of my favorites at the moment is a teacher/student story (which I only started reading because I like the author) but which is so deftly handled and beautifully written that it is fascinating reading (archived in Occlumency.) So I guess I am not entirely solid in my convictions, LOL.

Cecelle
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LadyWhitehart
Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 6:26 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 193 Location: New Jersey, USA
Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to read anything other than the American books, so I'm merely posing a question here. What were the differences between the terminology in the UK version of the books and the US version of the books? Were there changes made to 'Americanize' the earlier books? Most things could be figured out just with the context (bin=trash can, queue=line), but there might be things that would require additional explaination (master=teacher). I know that had there been British/American glossary in the back of SS/PS, I would have referred to it while my nephew (age 11) wouldn't have, nor would too many others in the target audience.

As for the apprenticeships, we do know that there are at least two fields that require advanced training: Aurors and Healers. In OotP, Mr Weasley's bite wounds were stitched by a trainee healer, Tonks had only qualified as an Auror a year ago (she obviously was out of school before Harry arrived, or he would have remembered her), and McGonagall warned Harry that Auror training required additional years of study. It would stand to reason that there would be other fields that would require more than just one's N.E.W.T.s. Since there is no wizarding university, there must be a way of obtaining additional education, whether they are called apprenticeships, training programs, internships or what-have-you. Sorry, but what we've been shown of the potions skills of even N.E.W.T. level students hasn't impressed me.

My biggest thing against master/apprentice stories is that Snape doesn't come across as someone who would take an apprentice, no matter how gifted the person was.

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Firewhisky
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:24 am Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Posts: 30 Location: Syracuse, New York
this also nukes all the hermione-sue stories where she earns a bunch of "masteries" in different fields. (yay!)

so, in a sense, you're only a master or mistress of something if dumbledore says so, (and appoints you to a teaching position)?

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Pennfana
Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:00 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 216 Location: Ontario, Canada
It's not "in a sense" at all. If you're a "master" or "mistress" of something at Hogwarts, it simply means that you're a teacher of that subject. If Professor Sinistra were made the Charms teacher, for example, she wouldn't be an Astronomy mistress anymore—she'd be a Charms mistress. Likewise, now that Snape's left Hogwarts he's no longer a Defence Against the Dark Arts master.

Hope this helped. Smile

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Vorona
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:45 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Apr 2007 Posts: 8
Well.

I must say that I feel incredibly insightful for an American, since I always figured Potions master = Potions teacher. It was a shock to me as well to discover all those apprenticeship stories.

That said, it is interesting that the only people referred to as "master" (or "mistress" for that matter) are Snape, when he's teaching Potions, and Slughorn.

Obviously that means that "Potions master" is the title of the Potions teacher.

It has nothing to do with Snape, since he loses the title of "master" when he switches to Defence Against the Dark Arts. It's somehow connected specifically to Potions. Maybe because the Potions position involves making potions for the school, in addition to teaching the subject? But then, you'd expect the same of the Herbology professor and the Care of Magical Beasts professor... Hmm...

Sorry for derailing the topic, but I find it intriguing.
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tonksinger
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:05 am Reply with quote
Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Posts: 15
I agree that "potions master" means teacher- but I also get the impression that Snape always liked potions a lot and may have studied them when he left school. I read the argument that he would have spent all his time being a Death Eater - but really, exactly how much could he do? My theory is that he studied Potions after school in order to aid Voldemort. It would be incredibly useful to have someone who was very knowledgeable about the subject in an army. True, he always wanted the Dark Arts job - possibly he felt that he could simply teach it better than anyone else, having had so much practice with it - but his little speech in book one shows how much he loves potions as well. He even refers to it as an art.

And I hate it when Hermione goes to "university" and comes back with about ten BA's or a Master's in Potions. Face it - she is not a gifted potions student, the way Severus was. She is very good at following directions and she;s a perfectionist - that's all. It is Snape's willingness to experiment at a young age and to push the boundaries that mark him as a potions prodigy - he has a love and a innate sense for the art. Let's say they were working in a restaurant - Hermione would probably be a line cook, albeit a very talented one. She would make exactly what she was told to make and she would do it very well. But Severus would the chef - the one who came up with the ideas for what to make, as well as exactly how he wanted them made.

Speaking of post-Hogwarts education, (or lack thereof), I always felt there was something. Looking at the skills the students have in their sixth year, i can;t see them learning enough in one more year at school to make them equal to their teachers. I think study - either independent or with a person more skilled in the subject - is a common practice. I don't think it's necessarily required for most jobs, but neither do I see the education provided by Hogwarts as qualifying the students to, say, teach.
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Circle_of_Echoes
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:29 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Posts: 9
tonksinger wrote:
Let's say they were working in a restaurant - Hermione would probably be a line cook, albeit a very talented one. She would make exactly what she was told to make and she would do it very well. But Severus would the chef - the one who came up with the ideas for what to make, as well as exactly how he wanted them made.


This analogy is absolutely spot-on. Snape has been shown time and again to be an original thinker, but Hermione just as clearly is not, and the concept of formulating a hypothesis, then testing it out (as would be required in Potions research at any level), would be utterly foreign to her. She thinks in terms of following directions established by others; hence, all the "But the book says to do it in thus-and-such a way!" kind of thinking to which she adheres.

I keep thinking of the creation of Chicken Marengo, which was whipped up on the spot from an odd assortment of foraged ingredients because Napoleon demanded a post-battle meal. In such circumstances, Snape would have acquitted himself admirably because he has a chef's ability to think outside the box and create something greater than the sum of its parts. Hermione, by contrast, would have been floundering in the absence of clear instructions. She would cast back through what she knew already, but if she didn't find a recipe that precisely fit the ingredients she had in front of her, she'd be lost.

Of COURSE Hermione took up the law, as the study of it is admirably suited to her talent for memorizing large quantities of written material, then retrieving the information and spitting it out verbatim as needed. Any law student would envy her prodigious ability in this regard!!

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Yukimor
Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:43 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 14
Razzberry wrote:

Although, since JKR said that there was no university or anything comparable in the wizarding world, I'm stumped as to how he might have done it. As I said, I have a hard time with the idea of master and apprentice. I attempted to write that once, but never got very far with it. I do think there is some evidence in the books that Snape is a more capable brewer than just an average NEWT-level student would have been, regardless of whether the title has anything to do with it or not.

Just my two cents.


I rather think master has been given the medieval interpretation purely because of all the fanon options that it opens up, as well as the fact that Hogwarts has an air of medievality to it which only enhances the feeling that it all has one foot in the middle ages and one foot int he 21st century.
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