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< Personae ~ Severus Snape - Potions Master.

Iseult

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:04 am

Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 20 Location: Newcastle, Australia

I had read the five Harry Potter books before reading any fanfiction.

Severus Snape has the title PotionsMaster. I had assumed that this was similar to the title Drawing Master from pre-20th Century boarding schools for upper class women.

I never assumed that it had anything to do with a formal apprenticeship, just that Severus was competent enough / brilliant at potions to teach them to high school students.

Has the fanon convention made him a Potions Master in the medieval apprenticeship mode for a reason? Is this because people view the magical world operating on the apprentice system? Or is it due to the fact that many in the fandom like the connotation of Snape being their "Master"?

I know this isn't the most crucial aspect of Snape's character to discuss but I am interested in the distortions created by fanfiction and the HP movies.

I never knew that Oliver Wood, Lucius Malfoy or even Draco were such important characters until they were given attractive actors to play their roles.

Miss Bellatrix Black

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:22 am

Joined: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Underground

Iseult wrote:

I never knew that Oliver Wood, Lucius Malfoy or even Draco were such important characters until they were given attractive actors to play their roles.

Ah yes, the dreaded attractive actor symptom... Very Happy

Not that I'm complaining.

About Snape, I never noticed this before. Maybe I'm just very thick. Although I could see authors liking the idea of Snape being "master", so to speak. He always did seem to ooze some type of very powerful aura... Cool

I myself have never read a fic with Snape portrayed as a Potions Master for an apprentiship, but maybe I just missed alot. At any rate, that sounds rather interesting...

I want to see what comments other people have, because I'm sure they are much more intelligent than my own comments... Razz

azazello

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:59 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

He's not a master in the sense of "master and apprentice". He's the Potions master in the sense of being the master at the school, while Flitwick is the Charms master, and McGonagall is the Transfiguration mistress.

Master and Mistress being old fashioned terms in British education for teacher. When I went to a very old form English grammar school in the late 1960's, staff were called Master or Mistress, as in Mr Robinson is the Geography master. A grammar school was a school for the academically gifted child and you had to pass an exam to get in. It was a state grammar school so there were no fees. We had a Headmaster, and also two Deputy Heads who were Senior Master and Mistress. We had Heads of House, too, though it was not a boarding school. Houses competed for points (though mainly in the arena of sporting and academic achievement - points were not docked for bad behaviour). There were four houses for the girls, and four for the boys (though the girls and boys houses corresponded. They were named after famous local persons of historical consequence, for instance my house was Cavell, after the local and national WW1 heroine, Edith Cavell (a nurse who was wrongly shot by the Germans for spying). We wore house colours for sport. We had a great hall that was wood pannelled, and had amphitheatre seating. There was an honours board, which would have the names of those who gained entry to either Oxford or Cambridge. There was also a board that showed all former pupils who fell for their country in either WWI or WWII. It was very traditional, that's largely the way English Education was before the 1970's, when Grammar Schools were abolished.

Hell, I went to Hogwarts without realising...

Possibly this is why I don't get the trouble people have in understanding the school set up.

That's all it is. Therefore any story containing Hermione apprenticed to Snape is largely nonsense. That's just not the connotation meant, and I seem to remember JKR has actually spelled that out in interview, or web chat.

For master read teacher and you won't go wrong.

_________________
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Razzberry

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:58 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

I suppose I drew a distinction between 'master' and 'teacher' because I can't recall Flitwick being referred to as the 'Charms Master' or McGonagall being referred to as 'Transfiguration Mistress'. Everyone else in the books is always a teacher or professor, and while I'm familiar with 'master' being used interchangeably with 'teacher', I haven't seen it used that way in the HP books.

However, I never even considered it in the medieval sense until I saw how many fics there were where Hermione is an apprentice to him. I use it more as a marker of education levels. Rather like the way that when I was in high school, I had a teacher who was a 'Doctor', indicating that she had her Doctorate in the field she was teaching. It's unusual to find someone with a Doctorate teaching in a public high school in Texas (and I think it's pretty unusual anywhere in the states-- if you have that much education, you can certainly get better pay and more interesting work at the university level if not in the field).

So I assumed that the designation of 'Master' in this sense (not 'headmaster', which even a backwoods Texan knows is just a fancy word for 'principal' Wink

) indicates a higher level of education than is common/necessary for the post.

There is some indication in the books that you don't have to be particularly qualified to teach, at least, not in the sense that I'd expect. But then, as a certified teacher, I had to go through a couple of extra years of college for that certification and I understand that this isn't necessarily required everywhere. I had a British friend try to explain A-Levels to me and I got hung up on someone who earned an A-Level (am I even saying that right?) being qualified to teach based on that alone. I couldn't help but stare, thinking 'this seventeen year old kid is supposedly qualified to teach English because he passed a test? No classroom experience required, no degree necessary... just a test...' I'll admit freely that I'm probably making a connect somewhere that doesn't need one, but I do have a very difficult time with that concept. I digress, though.

In HP, we need only look at Hagrid, who is barely literate and not a wizard and was expelled before he could graduate, for an example of a teacher who is not what I would consider 'qualified'. So, I suppose that I assumed the 'Master' designation indicated someone who did more than just earn his NEWT in Potions.

Although, since JKR said that there was no university or anything comparable in the wizarding world, I'm stumped as to how he might have done it. As I said, I have a hard time with the idea of master and apprentice. I attempted to write that once, but never got very far with it. I do think there is some evidence in the books that Snape is a more capable brewer than just an average NEWT-level student would have been, regardless of whether the title has anything to do with it or not.

Just my two cents.

Snape Fan

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:06 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29

Quote:

I can't recall Flitwick being referred to as the 'Charms Master' or McGonagall being referred to as 'Transfiguration Mistress'.

I have to agree with that. Snape has always been referred to as a Potions Master; JKR makes a point of that. I too think he must have some higher learning, if only for the fact that teaching about chemicals and all the dangerous ingriedients he has in his storeroom must take a higher knowledge than a professor who is, in Snape's words, doing "foolish wand waving."

I don't have a hard time though believing that Snape did some sort of apprenticeship and is a "Master" of potions. It's a fact that not everyone can make the Wolfsbane potion, but Snape can. That alone proves to me that higher learning is needed to teach potions.

azazello

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:00 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

All this speculation would be fine, except for one thing. JKR specifically said that Potions master referred solely to his position as a teacher at Hogwarts in an interview. And that it did not refer to his being a "master" as in the craftsman/artisan sense.

So it's just not canon, and no amount of wanting it to be so will make it so.

I seriously think that anyone who has been in the older form of British education would not make that mistake. The fact that other teachers are not referred to as masters or mistresses in canon hardly makes it true that this is exceptional for Snape. The real reason he's referred to in such a starchy way is that Harry can't stand him. He doesn't mind any of his other teachers. Also Snape uses the term because he is very formal.

The fact is, the term "master" in this context refers to his teacher status. It's older English usage: Schoolmaster, and Schoolmistress. JKR is actually referencing the older style of British boarding school. Take away the magic and you have a fairly traditional set of stories about kids having jolly japes at boarding school. I've read zillions of them when I was younger.

Snape says, in COS: "I believe I am the Potions master at this school." He says this in response to Lockhart saying he could brew up a restorative draught. What he is saying is that he is THE Potions master at the school, not that he is A Potions master at the school. This makes quite clear that it is a school position, and not a description of his professional qualification, or skill. Potions master is an actual position at Hogwarts, and if Snape dies or leaves, then another Potions master or mistress will be sought.

Iseult

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:51 pm

Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 20 Location: Newcastle, Australia

I'd assumed that he was just a member of the teaching staff but so many others in fanfiction use a master apprenticeship relationship.

The Australian school system (especially that in New South Wales) imported the British sytem wholesale. Whether you recieve a government or privately funded education your school will have houses and the terminology for positions has only recently changed in regards to school teachers title.

I probably should't have posted this question under Personae but under the Common Room as it is the fanfiction convention of master-apprentice that most interests me. When I first started reading HP fanfiction canon seemed to be very important (or it was at least a word tossed aound a lot). However, there seems to be a lot of distortion of characters in fanfiction, some of that seems to be very basic in regards to characters such as Snape. Many of these writers don't seem to have a clue in reagrds to the nasic character features of some of the characters.

Thanks for all of your input all the same.

celisnebula

Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:56 pm

Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 312 Location: USA

Quote:

JKR specifically said that Potions master referred solely to his position as a teacher at Hogwarts in an interview. And that it did not refer to his being a "master" as in the craftsman/artisan sense.

Would you happen to have a link to this, or a way for someone to find the interview? I've spent a little bit of time today looking over JKR's site and Mugglenet looking for this reference, and for the life of me, I can't find it.

I know that it isn't only we Americans who are having trouble with this distinction, I've a few friends in Guam and Japan who also believe that the connotation of Master comes from an apprentice sort of situation.

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liquidscissors

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:46 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

More than anything else, I see people use the 'master' in his occupation title as an indication that he's earned a post-grad degree in brewing manky shite. You know, from all those magical universities that aren't in canon.

Ah, intellectual dick-waving. Where would fanon be without it?

Diana

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:03 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

Quote:

In HP, we need only look at Hagrid, who is barely literate and not a wizard and was expelled before he could graduate, for an example of a teacher who is not what I would consider 'qualified'.

Um...Hagrid most definitely is a wizard. He may not have completed his schooling at Hogwarts, but he did get in, and you have to be a witch or wizard to attend Hogwarts. Hagrid isn't a Muggle, or a Squib for that matter, and he can do limited magic, even if he isn't supposed to.

Quote:

I know that it isn't only we Americans who are having trouble with this distinction, I've a few friends in Guam and Japan who also believe that the connotation of Master comes from an apprentice sort of situation.

I remember the mentions by JKR as well, but I'll have to search them out. A good place for you to look is on the archives at the leaky cauldron. Most of JKR's interviews and chat transcripts and really anything having to do with Harry Potter in the press is there.

Despite this fact, you only have to read the books to realise that 'master' (and it is lowercase in most incidents, by the way) does not mean 'holds a degree, was an apprentice, etc...' For example, in OOTP, the only career choice that we are made aware of, and we are made aware of a lot of choices, that requires additional schooling (see in addition to Hogwarts completion) is Auror training. I won't dispute that there are probably some witches and wizards in the wizarding world who have had additional training in their respective fields, but it appears (looking at canon) that most of what is learned past Hogwarts is simply a trial by error and experimentation situation. Of course, I'm only making an educated guess here, but the two most powerful wizards in the wizarding world didn't have any post-Hogwarts education that we are aware of. Voldemort taught himself the Dark Arts, and Dumbledore is 150+ years old, so I believe that it is a safe bet that most of his skill comes from some combination of raw power and extensive practiced application.

Razzberry

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:01 am

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

Sorry, the not a wizard comment was the result of trying to type while at work. I meant that since he was expelled from Hogwarts he isn't... *searches desperately for a word* I suppose that I was getting at the fact that he isn't properly trained as a wizard.

From JKR:

Quote:

He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a bit inept.

That was what I was getting at-- he isn't a competent wizard, and therefore not one that I would consider particularly qualified to be teaching at a wizarding school.

Regarding the interview-- I'm also interested in it (not saying that as an 'I don't believe you, prove it' statement, but as an expression of interest). I spent most of the evening looking through JKR interviews for it, but didn't find it. I did turn up other gems that I'm off to post elsewhere, though. I haven't seen the interview in question, but if JKR says so, then that's certainly good enough for me. I don't really have an emotional stake in the argument one way or another-- though the impression I got from the books was that there was a distinction to being Potions master as opposed to Charms professor and that Snape is an above-average talented brewer.

azazello

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:45 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Dont have the link to the interview. But I assure the sceptical that it exists and thereby nukes all your Hermione is apprenticed to Snape scenarios quite adequately.

The point that really needs to be made is that it's a misunderstanding of English traditional school nomenclature. A "master" is a posh name for teacher. QED.

Quite apropos of that, can anyone see Snape allowing Hermione to work as some sort of assistant to him? Seriously, honestly and in character?

And also, why is it that Hermione always has such a yen to become *cough* a Potions mistress? She evinces no especial interest in potions in canon over and above her other subject.

The Potions master's apprentice is a tired scenario in SS/HG. R J Anderson used the term in a quite different way in her story of that name (it was both a nod to Laurie R King's "The Beekeeper's Apprentice - which her story is a strong hommage to, AND as a figurative suggestion of the early relationship of Maud and Severus. She was not apprenticed to him).

Okay. Further apprentice poking. Where is Snape's apprentice in canon?

Answer: Nowhere because he does not have one, or take one, because he is a (school)master, and not some journeyman/master brewer.

I hate to pull British rank, but I seriously sometimes wish folk would listen when we say something is so. Because like it or not, we have possibly a clearer grasp of the UK setting of the books. I realise this seems to piss all non european writers off mightily, but deal with it, it's a fact. I find getting into daft arguments like this is not unlike banging my head against a wall as I repeatedly prove something and those who are annoyed because their fanon dream has just faded come up with repeated non-arguments to prove me wrong (but do not actually do so). did I ever bore anyone with my recollections of the time I took on the chief Vampire!Snape theorist over at HPFGU?

/pissed off rant...

Appointment to the staff of Hogwarts seems to be very much the gift of the Headmaster. He recruits (I doubt there is advertising) and appoints pretty much whoever he choses. Possibly subject to ratification by the Board of Governors.

Snape is Potions master because DD wants him to be, not because of some obscure qualification. He has NEWTS and OWLS. And personal expertise.

As regards A levels in England per a previous poster. No one would be considered qualified as a teacher with just A levels. And you pass A levels. And your grades are important in determining entrance to University. To teach in a UK school generally you need a University BA as a minimum, or failing that the Certificate of Education which is a vocational teaching qualification obtained after three year's study. Even University graduates need to do a Post-Graduate Certificate of Education after their first degree to be able to teach.

Teachers in Higher Education generally have a Doctorate, and extensive research published. Universities are rated and receive funding due to the quality of their researchers and the amount of published research is very important. But that's got nothing to do with Snape. He's teaching Potions at Hogwarts because he's good at it, and because DD wants him there. If you count back his statement that he was appointed 14 years before OOTP it means he was appointed AFTER the fall of LV, and is therefore not there as LV's plant.

Anyway, back to Snape.

If you also study the timeline with care, this is roughly his cv:

1978 +/- a year: Left Hogwarts

1978 - 1980 What was Snape doing? There's only two years to become a "master" potions brewer (for those of you who insist against all British and canon knowledge that this was so) - and I suggest most of this was taken up with being a Death Eater. There isn't even time for him to become an apprentice Potions brewer.

1980 - changed sides "spied for our side at great personal risk"

1981 Fall of Voldemort and appointment to staff at Hogwarts (the appointment may have been in 1982)

Sorry, friends of apprenticeships. It does not work. QED as I said earlier. Deal, accept, move on. And write your Hermione is Snape's apprentice stories, just do not look for any canon authority. There is none.

deus-ex-maria

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:22 am

Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 12

Thanks for the info on the British school system Azazello. This was a point that I'd wondered about, as it didn't mesh with the timeline for Snape to have aquired an advanced degree prior to becoming a teacher, yet my understanding of the title 'master' as used in the US would indicate such. Damned ethno-centric American culture.

The real reason he's referred to in such a starchy way is that Harry can't stand him. He doesn't mind any of his other teachers. Also Snape uses the term because he is very formal.

This makes quite a bit more sense than any of the other theories floating around, while fitting with both Snape's and Harry's characters.

anna_kat

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:00 am

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

Well, I didn't find an exact quote about the use of master=teacher, but it is fairly obvious even to those of us who don't know much of traditional British schools.

Rowlings says verbatim

Quote:

...when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape on to the staff and Professor Snape said I'd like to teach Defense Against the Darks Arts, please, and Professor Dumbledore felt that that might bring out the worst in Professor Snape. ...So he said I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you get along there.

If Snape looked back on an apprenticeship with a Potion Mistress or Master, he'd have applied for the Potions teacher position straight away. Also, it has been established by book 5 that the dark arts always fascinated Severus. Any apprenticehip he would have volunteered for, would have been in Dark Arts, or possibly Defense against the Dark Arts, not Potions.

That he is an above average Potions maker, as established through Lupin's comment to Harry, is just an added bonus.

And then there is also Alan Rickman's comment:

Quote:

I think at heart Snape is basically quite an insecure person, he’s always longing to be something else that people will really respect like a black magician not just a school master. That's why he envies the more popular and successful boys like Harry.

School master = teacher. Nothing more fanciful. I also take Rickman's comment as a not so subtle hint for the reasons Snape joined the deatheaters. Glory and fame. Brew glory, bottle fame anyone? He still craves the same thing. Ah, well.

Alynna

Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 1:29 am

Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 24 Location: central Maryland

Wow. This has cleared things up nicely for me. Being unfamiliar with the British usage, I always wondered which (Master or master) was canon. In my mind it turned into the bizzare scenario of Snape having the title of Master (note the capital letter) because he had passed some Ministry-issued test that made him a Ministry-certified Potions producer. Yes, I know this is totally full of holes, but this is Harry Potter, not Thomas Covenant or Lord of the Rings. Holes are allowed.

I had also wondered how true the statement was in book 1 that Snape was after the DADA job. I didn't realize JKR had made a specific comment about it. Thanks for posting that.

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