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dwamimok

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:17 pm

Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 8

I have read so many wonderful fanfics here over the past few weeks. I've grown quite addicted and have had several little plot bunnies hopping around in my mind for awhile now. I'm trying to put my thoughts to paper (or rather computer screen) but its just not working!

Hence the subject of this silly little post...how do you get these annoying little bunnies out of your head and on paper? I'm asking everyone who has submitted a fanfic. Just curious...

azazello

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:15 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Well here's how I got started. It's highly individual and might not be the same experience of others.

I had no intention of writing fanfic, and indeed had never written any form of fiction for over twenty years when I came into fandom.

I joined fandom in order to discuss OOTP (that book had just come out). I joined the yahoo group Harry Potter for Grown Ups. I was bored and read through all their files one Sunday afternoon and discovered links to fanfics. Goodness me.

I always shipped Snape and Lily as an unrequited thing, and having read through the theories on that site I looked for fanfic. I could not get to "I Was Right" supposedly the best ever Snape/Lily fic at the time (since then I have something to say about that. It's a fic called "Therapy" by me). So I followed other links and cruised ffnet in horror. Read IWR and was hugely disappointed. Then read R J Anderson's "Darkness and Light" trilogy and decided I'd never write fanfic. I couldn't be that good.

In the meantime, I started working on a long canon essay about Snape's psychology with the belief that he had been in love with Harry's mum being of some importance. No one had really taken on board the sight of his parents quarrelling in OOTP, and I began to mull over this in detail. As the posting grew, I realised it was too conjuctural for a canon debating forum. I decided to write a fictional dialogue between Snape and a psychiatrist, wherein he would recount the story of his life. Just for me. Not to show to anyone. For fun.

Over two weeks I was like one possessed, and breakthrough came after a week, when I realised this was more than a two chapter story. I also realised I had to sit down and do a linear plotting of what Snape's biography might be like, and check that it fitted with canon. Then after two weeks I completed the first draft of a story that would be called "Therapy". It was 14,000 words.

I went on holiday to Turkey, and kept thinking about it. I came back and read through and made a lot of amendments. And more and more. Finally I felt it was polished enough to submit to Fiction Alley. I got it back, so following their advice I got a beta reader. She made some really cool suggestions about varying the narrative pace, about breaking long monologues up, and eventually I finished it. It weighed in at 30,000 words. The length of a short novel. Boy was I proud that I could actually write a short novel.

My current magnum opus a Snape/Hermione angstmonster is 320,000 words long. It's called But You Alone - plug, plug, plug.

First piece of advice to newbies. Do not try to post a work in progress. Complete your first couple of story postings so that you can fix any problems.

I posted my first fic, which basically has Snape seeing a psychiatrist, relating his story, and ultimately achieving a sort of healing. It was a really simple idea but did not spring fully formed into my mind. It took work and thinking. And it was the best fun I had ever had in my life. Really. That story is Therapy. I'd say it's pretty often quoted as the other classic Snape loved Lily fic. Not bad for a canon essay with attitude.

After that, stuck for something to do, I started a bit of original fiction (as yet unfinished because the idea is huge in scope) and was nibbled by a little SS/HG porn without plot idea. I wrote it out, decided it was garbage (it was) and mulled a while longer. Then I saw a way of making that story bigger and better. I was inspired by an historical incident, and started writing a longer story, and suddenly saw this as a sequel to my first idea.

The historical episode is the scandalous love match between the widow of King Henry V and a landless squire, Owen Tudor. That historical episode founded the Tudor royalty, and was a huge society scandal in 1430. It made a great retelling. It is called "The Only Warmth". That porn without plot eventually mutated into a cute little romantic story with a lot of comedy of some 60,000 words. See what I mean about growing?

The point I am trying to make is that little ideas can grow into very big and very good stories (I'm conceited enough to believe my stories are bloody good). If you get an idea, write it down. Put it away for a minimum of two weeks, and then look it over. More ideas might grow and you might be surprised what happens.

Keep an ideas notebook for those moments your mind says, "What if?" and come back to them.

That might be a starting point for you. I hope this is of some help. Do not look for an instant novel length idea. Write an idea down, see where it takes you, and very good luck.

And please, this is special pleading. We've a dearth of good story driven fics in the fandom, which is drowning in crappy porn. Please, write a story?

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Razzberry

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:37 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

Well, the obvious answer is to sit down and write. I'll spare you that one though.

As someone who has no problem being verbose, I have no issues with getting plot bunnies to hop around on paper instead of sulking in the corner of my mind. That said, I've read a number of advice columns on writing, particularly on the subject of writer's block and the like, and I can offer some tips that apparently work for others.

1. Turn off the monitor. Sounds stupid, I know, but I can definitely see the merit in it. Just turn off the monitor and type. This is particularly helpful if you're the type of person who will get caught up in minutiae-- spelling, grammar, making your writing pretty. Just get the ideas onto the page, and then go back and edit. During this first draft, it doesn't matter if you misspell every fifth word or if the sentences are all choppy and juvenile. You can fix that later. This is the literary equivalent of making a rough sketch that you will then paint or draw on top of.

After you have the story written in rough form, you go back and add the detail, worry about the sentence structure, word choice, flow, spelling, etc. I know a good many writers use this method, whether or not they actually turn off the monitor (which is a way to reduce teptation to get caught up in details).

2. Outline. Formal outline or a few brief notes on a scrap of paper, it can give you direction.

3. Dialogue. I have a couple of friends who begin their writing with dialogue exchanges, then go in and add details and action to flesh it out.

Beyond these suggested methods, I can't think of anything. Some specific advice, though--

* Keep a calendar. This is particularly useful if you have a story Lupin is in, as you'll need to keep up with the lunar cycles. I find that Lupin stories are easy to write because his lycanthropy is so predictable.

* Keep notes about your characters, particularly original ones. Make a memo to yourself so that you'll remember three chapters later if your charcter had blue eyes or green.

* Create a deleted scenes folder. This is advice from me personally-- every now and then I get the urge to write something ridiculous. To make Snape sappy or to turn Dumbledore evil and manipulative. I go ahead and write it, then laugh at myself and save it into this deleted scenes folder. I find that my muse pouts if I don't write what she says to write, even if it's stupid.

* If you're writing a chaptered fic, write ahead of what you're posting. My own (fairly arbitrary) guide is 3. For example, I recently posted chapter 38 of a story. Chapter 39 is ready to go, and chapter 40 was with the beta. Chapter 41 has a title. This way, if my world falls apart over the wekend, I can keep up weekly updates for another two weeks before I'm letting my audience down. It also means that I have a buffer of two chapters-- while I'm writing chapter 41, I can go back and make changes in chapters 39 or 40.

Most importantly, have fun! Do what works for you and don't worry about what advice anyone else has. Everyone is a little different-- some folks will write a scene here and a scene there and eventually it all fits together. Some people will sit down and begin at page one and then go to page two. Some people will start off knowing exactly how it's going to end and everything that will happen between. Some people will just pick a couple of characters and start writing, and see how the story turns out. Whatever works for you works like a charm Wink

RachelW

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:04 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

azazello wrote:

First piece of advice to newbies. Do not try to post a work in progress. Complete your first couple of story postings so that you can fix any problems.

I'd like to wholeheartedly agree. I started a WIP a few months after finding fanfic and seeing a challenge on WIKTT. So, writing along, writing along...started another WIP....writing along, writing along...then decided to add another WIP. HUGE mistake. So now I have one dead story (the first one) because when I started it I had no clue how to put together a plot, build charachters, or even see if a story was plausable.

I'm better now...but the first fic will never be finished unless I put a terribly angsty dark ending to it because that's the only way it can end.

I had to take the second one down for re-writing because I went about it all wrong, but it's still salvagable...coming slow though.

My third is coming along pretty well though, because by that time I'd learned how to set up characters and storylines.

But, abandoned WIP's dissapoint readers, and make you feel guilty.

So, if you've got an idea for a fic, write it out. Another thing to start doing is to try writing shorter stories. There's an LJ community to writing 30 minute fics wherin you have 30 minutes to come up with a plot and write it down. You learn pretty quick how to get the bare essentials of setting a mood and theme in a story through exercises like that. And for longer things it helps to plan things out longer.

If you've got an idea for a longer story, then sit down and just start writing. Azazello's process for her first fic sounds absoutely ideal, and I wish I'd seen advice like that before I started writing.

azazello

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:58 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

I'm better now...but the first fic will never be finished unless I put a terribly angsty dark ending to it because that's the only way it can end.

Why the fandom wide chicken-ness with sad endings? Life does not always end happy.

Write a sad ending, I get bored with seeing silly soppy endings bolted on to darker fics just to please the brainless. If more folk wrote the way their instinct told them to, this pairing might not be drowning in the stupid brainless fluff it presently is.

dwamimok

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:40 pm

Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 8

Thanks for the replies! You've armed me with some good advice and now all I have to do is find what works for me. Oh, and I wasn't planning on trying to submit anything till I finished. I have started reading many a fanfic (not here) that after I got to the last chapter posted realized it wasn't done and hadn't been updated in months or even years. Evil or Very Mad

RachelW

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:04 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

azazello wrote:

Write a sad ending, I get bored with seeing silly soppy endings bolted on to darker fics just to please the brainless. If more folk wrote the way their instinct told them to, this pairing might not be drowning in the stupid brainless fluff it presently is.

LOL...well...okay, I can do that. I started writing it thinking it was a sweet romance. I was so wrong. Wronger than wrong. Yeppers...will get to work on evil angsty ending. Wink

Snegurochka

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:54 am

Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 60

Nice topic. It really can be difficult to sit down that first time and try writing. Don't be afraid to do it, though, and don't be afraid of DELETE. Your first draft of your first fic will, without question, suck. That's what drafts and first fics are for. You don't get better at writing by staring at your screen and wishing you were better at writing; you get better at writing by... writing. A lot.

I cribbed that advice from Stephen King's writing memoir, which I would recommend to all who consider themselves writers or aspiring writers. He's got some wonderful advice, like: adverbs are not your friend. When readers put down a book because it "got boring," that's usually because the author went way overboard on description. And most importantlly, he says: WRITE. Churn it out. Snippets of conversations, a description of a castle you have in mind, maybe the opening paragraph of a mystery. Just get it down.

Regarding the WIP issue, I have to agree with those who don't recommend it. BUT - that is because I have come to know myself as a writer, and I know I can't do it. I know that I write very out of order. I usually have endings written before beginnings. If I have an idea for a confrontation that will take place somewhere in my fic, I'll write it, and find a place for it later. Sometimes it turns out that chapter 9 is the best place for it. But then I want to go back to chapter 2 and give a hint that said confrontation is coming.

In short: I can't fathom writing something one chapter after the other, and posting it along the way. I can't sketch out an entire fic before I sit down to write; I just write and see where it goes. This is fine, if I don't post any of it until the whole thing is done and I'm happy with it - but if I did start posting it, and then the whole thing changed... that's not very cool of me to do.

Example: I'm currently pulling my hair out over the final chapter of my Lupin Is Not a Wimp challenge fic, because of TWO LINES in chapter 2 (already posted) that my beta just pointed out ruins all continuity in chapter 5. If I hadn't been such a bastard and posted already, I could delete those damning lines and my 9,000-word chapter 5 would be ready to go. As it is, I now have to rethink the entire flipping thing, and I'm extremely grumpy with myself for it. Smile

If you think you are linear and organised enough to do a WIP, knock yourself out. If you suspect you aren't, don't try to do it just because everyone else does.

A final thought, in response to something June said, if I may:

Quote:

And please, this is special pleading. We've a dearth of good story driven fics in the fandom, which is drowning in crappy porn. Please, write a story?

I see your point, but must respectfully disagree. I read Rowling for the PG story I want to read. I read fanfic for the porn. I'd read Rowling's porn if I could and ditch fanfic altogether, but alas. Yes, there is indeed too many terrible PWPs out there, I agree with that, but there are also some awesome stories with nail-biting plots, that also have quite a few cocks in them. Twisted Evil

Those are the ones I want to read.

Good luck with your own writing, dwamimok!

Peace,
~Snegurochka

azazello

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:00 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

I was talking about the crappy porn.

I produce good porn. Which also has high story values. Most of the porn currently being produced is shite. That's the point. Porn or not porn, it is abysmal writing. And most of the porn around at present, firmly fits into the crappy category. Because the characters are out of character, the porn reads like insert tab a into slot b. And so on. Essentially if people actually sat down and WROTE, we'd all benefit.

Diana

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:23 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I thought I would add my opinions in the mix even though you appear to have found the advice you were seeking.

Keep in mind that when I write, myself, I use a variety of these suggestions depending on what I'm writing about, what fandom I'm writing in, who the characters are, etc...

1. Start yourself an idea book. I cannot stress this enough, and as you can see, others here seem to be thinking along the same lines. If you get an idea, no matter how idiotic, absurd, or crazy you think it may be, write it down anyway. Right now, I'm currently on idea book volume four. I write everything down: one line, one word, pages after pages of dialogue (sometimes I actually know who is saying it too), descriptive writing, etc...

2. Before you start writing your story, plot it out. I personally make time-lines, charts, graphs, notes that I will never even use. Everything you as the author need to know to write your story, get it down somewhere. Even things that you know as you are writing them you will never use, write them down anyway. You can always go back and toss it in the bin later.

3. Again, before you start your actual writing, do story outline, get some type of feel of what you want to go in chapter such and such and so forth. Of course, you can change all of this later, but have at least some type of plan. You can even be as vague as, 'I want this event to take place sometime in the first third of my story, and I want this event to be the climax, and...' just get something down.

4. Another thing that I do personally, and I'm not sure if everyone else does this or not; I create a character folder (it is literal paper file folder) that holds every piece of character information that I know (canon) and that I have created. When I read a story and like it, it is because I feel that the author knows their characters better than anyone else in the world. I don't need to know if character A as a mole on her bum or if character B's father was a git as a child if it isn't important to the story, but I like stories where I feel that the author knows all of this.

5. Once you start writing, just write. I see that someone else suggested turning off the monitor, I agree. I personally prefer to write out my stories and then type them up, but to each their own. The point is, don't look at what you are writing, just write it. Let it sit. When I was working on my novel (currently with my editor, and still shopping for a publisher) I would hand over all copies of whatever I had just finished working on to my roommate so she could lock it up, literally. I didn't do this because I thought I had some grand masterpiece on my hands that needed twenty-four hour guarantee under lock and key; I did this so that I had no temptation to go and look it over before I had let it sit long enough (2-3 weeks for me personally).

Once you get it back, tear it to shreds if you think it is shit. Do not try to salvage shit. I had 50+ first drafts of my first chapter before I was even remotely happy with what I had written. I'm still evolving there, by the way.

6. Canon is your friend. Do not rely on online resources for all of your canon needs. Online sources are good jumping off points, but research the source material yourself. If you are writing in a book fandom, review the books. If it is a television show, get the DVDs or a set of tapes somehow. The same with film, get the DVDs. Review the source material with your own eyes, do not rely on others to do it all for you.

7. After you finish the story, and I know that some people do this before they actually finish, get a beta reader. Get more than one if you can get it. Different beta readers are good at different things. Some are strictly plot, others are grammar and spelling, some are canon fiends.

I would also suggest that if you attempt to write a pairing that you find someone who isn't involved in that particular aspect of the fandom to look over your story. I'm not saying that your beta reader, if they share your like of SS/HG or HP/DM or whatever it may be, is going to automatically become a fanpoodle catering to your every whim, but a fresh perspective from someone who isn't involved in any of the going ons of your fandom circle is always a good idea in my opinion.

This is really all I can think of that may or may not help you. I think that part of writing and becoming a good writer is trial and error. What works for me and the others here may or may not work for you too.

I do want to mention one other small thing about beta readers. Please, please, please, when you get a beta reader, and good ones are hard to come by, treat them with the proper respect that they deserve. Do not abuse your beta reader, they are doing you a favor by reading your story and offering their services. If you choose not to take their advice about something let them know, and give them a reason. It is very frustrating to see an author you beta read for start posting something that looks like something you've never seen before. In addition, do not over-use your beta reader either. They just as human as you are, show them that you appreciate them, inquire about their lives (fandom or otherwise), and always show understanding when they are unable to meet a deadline.

Diana

Razzberry

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:46 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

Quote:

I cribbed that advice from Stephen King's writing memoir, which I would recommend to all who consider themselves writers or aspiring writers. He's got some wonderful advice, like: adverbs are not your friend. When readers put down a book because it "got boring," that's usually because the author went way overboard on description.

Momentarily disregarding the fact that I've only ever managed to finish one Stephen King book and that was because I was determined to figure out what everyone was raving about, I'm going to disagree with this.

Go to your bookshelf and pick up a book *you* like to read, open it up, and read it from a literary perspective. When you find yourself responding to it, stop and ask yourself 'what did I like about that?' or 'why did that passage make me feel like I'd just been skewered with a hot poker?'

It doesn't matter if your favorite author is one of the greats, or if it's someone who writes harlequin romance-- if you like a style, borrow it. If you admire Stephen King's writing, then by all means, run a seach for those -ly words and eradicate them. Interestingly, that was one of his major criticisms of JKR-- her use of adverbs and 'overdoing' the description. That's one of the things I like about her books as opposed to his. Don't let him intimidate you away from entire parts of speech just because he doesn't like them.

Frankly, nothing will make me put down a book faster than a cast of thousands. I have a hard enough time keeping up with the names of people I actually know, and it just stresses me when there are more than half a dozen or so names I have to keep up with. In the Harry Potter series, I was in GoF before I had Lavender, Pansy, Padma and Parvati separate, and I still can't keep Crabbe and Goyle apart without looking them up. I couldn't even name five Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs.

Don't let anyone dictate a style to you, particularly if it isn't a style you're comfortable with in the first place. Develop your own, and base it off what you like, not what other people like. That is what separates an artist from an entrepreneur.

Snegurochka

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:22 pm

Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 60

Fair enough. I didn't mention this in my earlier post, but in fact I've never read a Stephen King book in my life, and never intend to. His genre doesn't interest me. An author friend recommended the memoir to me, is all, and I found it very useful, simply because I felt like he was talking to me.

Everyone else says to plot out your story in detail, in advance, and to make a lot of character notes and all that. Sure, if that works for you, but I've never been able to do any of this, and I've always felt like a crappy writer for it. Maybe I am. Smile

But when I read in his memoir that he doesn't recommend these things either, I felt like maybe my style of writing is OK too, even if it's not the same as anyone else's.

Obviously, if he says not to use adverbs, and you like adverbs, or if he says not to bother keeping track of the freckles on your character's nose, and you love having meticulous notes on these things, then you won't appreciate his advice. *shrugs* To each their own.

Peace,
~Lee

aphrodeia

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:08 pm

Moderator Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 46

Shamelessly bumping for my own petty uses.

I've just begun my first chaptered story, and I'm hoping like crazy that it works out. I've been spending much time staring at blank pages and piles of notes, trying to figure out how to get it rolling. Scenes pop up, and I put them to paper, only to spend days trying to figure out how to glue them together.

Fantastic advice in this thread! Maybe I can put a bit of it to use. Very Happy

Aphrodeia

Vesera Paens

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:37 am

Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Posts: 13

Here are a few more ideas on how to avoid writer's block:

1. Don't end your writing session without some idea of what's going to happen next... whether you leave on a cliff hanger or just make a note of what's happening next, or if you're just simply only half-way through a sentence. I often use a timer, so that when it beeps, I'm somewhere in the middle of my groove... That means that it's all fresh when I get to it the next time I open the file. I've done outlining and I've written without an outline, and I've come to the conclusion that I do best with a minimal outline. Not a detailed one, but not completely without one, either.

2. If you get stuck, take a notebook to some other location and just brainstorm for awhile.

3. Write at least a little every day, especially first thing in the morning and/or last thing at night. In the former, it means that throughout the day, you'll get little ideas, even if you aren't able to write them down... this keeps the story fresh in your mind. In the latter, you may well start having dream plot bunnies. Last March, when I was writing something for myself, I had new dreams every night that told me where the plot was going. I'd add them to the end of the document as a list of notes.

4. Don't allow yourself to get stuck. By this, I mean, employ every dirty trick you can think of to get from the place you are in to the place you are going. I'm a linear writer, so I can't just jump around. Yes, you'll probably need to edit them out and come up with something better, but it's better to have something bad than nothing at all... because it can lead you to something good. In a novel I was working on once, I had a scene where one characters notices that the other is always rubbing his chin, and suddenly starts asking him why he doesn't grow a beard. This beard/chin discussion led right into breaking the fourth wall and the characters explaining why they had chosen to be fictional characters and hoping that there wouldn't be too many evil plot twists. But it helped me get past that scene and into the next one. Write anything. Anything is better than nothing.

5. Ambiance. Set up ambiance for your novel. Include as many senses as possible. Don't use them (whatever you're using for ambiance) any time other than when you are actually writing. That means if you have some rose candles burning for your bittersweet romance, when you start checking your e-mail, blow out the candles. This ambiance will trigger your mind to become one with the story. I tend to use candles, incense, perfume oils, music, and something to drink (taste). I have two for scent, because smell is my favorite sense... also, I've heard it is the most capable of bringing back old memories, and returning you to the moment when you felt that way, so I imagine it would be particularly useful for this purpose.

A final note on adverbs. I've found that just about all the writing resources out right now are talking about how bad adverbs are. That doesn't mean it's *bad* writing, but it does mean that it's not *popular* writing. If you're writing original fiction and want it to be published in the traditional manner, you'll probably want to get rid of as many adverbs as possible. The problem isn't whether you have too much description, though. The problem is that a lot of times, a verb+adverb combination would actually be better and stronger as a single verb... just not that one.

Consider:
He said fast, quietly, and harshly vs. He hissed
She changed lanes quickly and dangerously to avoid the other car vs. She swerved to avoid the other car and barely missed it.

Yes, there are times when adverbs are necessary, especially ones like "especially" "barely" "unfortunately", and so on... that is, those that aren't necessarily connected to verbs or how the action is done. But it's not a bad idea to find your adverbs and just see if a strong verb will do a better job of expressing what you have expressed with a verb and adverb. If the verb+adverb is better, by all means, keep it. But do try them all out.

LadyWhitehart

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:08 am

Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 193 Location: New Jersey, USA

Above all--KEEP BACK UPS! Yes I know this sounds really stupid and basic, but there you have it. Nothing is more heart-breaking than losing months of work. For a time I was stuck working off of about four different computers, singing the praises of my trusty flash drive. You can now see where this is going can't you? Long story short flash met with an unfortunate accident, trapping several chapters and notes in limbo. Now I have flash with a disk back up, I send myself emails, and I even print hard copies for those times I have to edit away from the computer.

Paranoid? Probably. Prepared? I hope so.

_________________
Come be my friend! I need friends. http://ladywhitehart.livejournal.com/
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