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RachelW

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:59 pm

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

I’ve noticed a lot of people seem to equate Original Fictional Characters as Mary-Sues in almost all cases. Unfortunately, the pervasiveness of various exchange student sues with super powers, super-model good looks, gothic style, and silly names tends to reinforce the stereotype of the OFC = Mary Sue problem.

The problem is, when writing fanfic, there are very few canon characters from which to choose who are fleshed out. Minerva McGonagall, Hermione Granger, and Ginny Weasley are the only canon characters that have a lot of information on their characters to a point at which you can write about them

To a lesser extent, Nymphandora Tonks, Pince, Pomfrey, Sinistra, Rosmerta, Hooch, Padma and Pavroti Patil, Cho Chang, Pansy Parkinson, Lavender Brown, and Millicent Bulstrode are canon, but there’s not enough information about them to really use them in a fic and say definitively outside a few characteristics that they are in character. Mostly, they’re very surface characters and though they may be revealed to have more depth in books six and seven, for now they aren’t really all that fleshed out.

So, that leaves us with OFC’s. Why is there something against OFC’s? Some of the classics of the fandom are OFC stories. ‘Brave New World’ is a good one with excellent writing, for instance. (can be found here: http://members.verizon.net/~vze3kcjz/bnw/bnwindex.html ) Personally, I’d rather see a good OFC, than see Hermione stretched to fit a role she doesn’t fit, or given personality traits to make a story work that she doesn’t have. However, I think the attitude against OFC’s encourages people to use Hermione where they probably should use an OFC, because there is a much larger readership for Snape/Hermione than there is for Snape/OFC.

So, what do you think? If you don’t like OFC’s, why? Have you seen an OFC that is good, and not a Mary Sue?

Diana

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:19 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

My personal take on OFC's is that they are rarely done with quality in mind. Don't get me wrong, there are indeed some out there, but they are rare.

I tend to not read OFC stories for the simple fact that I've been burned too many times by horribly executed characters and plot developments. I know that I'm biased when it comes to this subject; but nothing is worse than getting ten chapters into an OFC story only for that OFC to take on the name 'Sue'.

I suppose what I'm looking for in a character, original or not, is realism. I'm not interested in reading about some super-model, super-power, all inspiring female that everyone in the canon world decides, all of a sudden, is the best thing since sliced bread.

Part of my reasoning behind this has to do with what kind of impact these OFC's have on the canon characters as well. Usually, when horribly written OFC's are used, the canon characters are also poorly executed. In some extreme cases the author manages to not only create an Mary-Sue, but they also manage to make the canon characters, in their Sue's world, Sue's too.

There have been a few OFC's that I have come to love. But they are not the center of the story's universe, mind. Two amazing OFC's that come to mind would belong to Azazello.

In But You Alone by Azazello, there is Blanche. I personally love Blanche, many readers did not. She is real, and she is most definitely not a Mary-Sue. Blanche, unlike the dreaded Mary-Sue, has flaws. She is a person and not a life sized doll that the world decides to suddenly revolve around.

In Therapy and The Only Warmth both by Azazello, there is Rosemary. Again, I love Rosemary. Incidently enough, she is probably my favourite OFC in fandom to date. Of course most of the above reasons apply to her as well. I'm not going to go into detail about her here however, you will have to read the stories to find out. Go! Go now, and read!

I should mention that the characters that I have mentioned probably do not fit into the mold that you are referring to here. I'm not going to go into detail about them because, as I said, you should be reading all three of these stories if you haven't already. However, if you have read them, I'm sure you can pick up on what I'm talking about here.

Finally, as for Brave New World, the OFC might be nice, but the author basically throws out a huge chunk of groundwork canon to make her work. As such, I would not personally rec this story for that very reason.

Diana

RachelW

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:09 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

Diana wrote:

I tend to not read OFC stories for the simple fact that I've been burned too many times by horribly executed characters and plot developments. I know that I'm biased when it comes to this subject; but nothing is worse than getting ten chapters into an OFC story only for that OFC to take on the name 'Sue'.

There's a Lucius/OFC over on Lumos that has a very well-developed OFC that might creep into sueness only slightly because she ends up being more than what she seems at the start. However, there's also the thing that in the magical world there will sometimes be characters who do have a special power or heritage. However, it's a fine line to walk when creating an OFC who has a major purpose like that. I think as long as the character's personality is real it works.

I suppose I've been forutunate in that the OFC stories I've found have been obvious from the begining on wether or not they were Sues.

Diana wrote:

In But You Alone by Azazello, there is Blanche. I personally love Blanche, many readers did not. She is real, and she is most definitely not a Mary-Sue. Blanche, unlike the dreaded Mary-Sue, has flaws. She is a person and not a life sized doll that the world decides to suddenly revolve around.

I agree that Blanche is a very real character. I've been keeping up with BYA for a while now, and it's a great story. No, it's not a Canon/OFC pairing, but it is a good example for this discussion of bringing an OFC into a story. I think a lot of people tend to hate an OFC like Blanche because she's competition...it's not the character so much as the position she's in. I like Blanche even though she made a really, really dumb move. It was the kind of mistake someone like her in her position would make. I've got an OFC who is a minor character in a story I'm writing and people already hate her (I was surprised at the vehemence against her some of my reviewers displayed).

But, in a long story it makes it richer if you include OC's who have a signifigant role beyond someone to check out your groceries because there's only so many times you can keep pulling canon personalities in to fit a role before it's totally unrealistic.

Diana wrote:

Finally, as for Brave New World, the OFC might be nice, but the author basically throws out a huge chunk of groundwork canon to make her work. As such, I would not personally rec this story for that very reason.

Hmmm...I can see how it would seem that way. For me, it's all about the set-up, and the author set it up in a way that seemed believable for me (woman who is a teacher has a nephew she finds herself taking custody of when his parents die in a car crash, he's a Muggleborn wizard and she wasn't about to send her nephew - who had a number of problems from his parents sudden death as well as from the magic symptoms that pop up when he has high surges of emotion - off with some strangers only months after taking custody of him. She's an experienced english teacher and Dumbledore offers her the muggle studies position since they had an opening and hoped to find a competent muggle studies teacher who could really teach how Muggles lived).

In other circumstances I don't think I'd see it hapening, but as long as an author takes care to set up the reasons I think it can work. But, maybe I'm just not as picky either. Smile

azazello

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:33 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

I think in terms of romance writing (which one way or another forms a large part of what we do) it comes down to whether you keep it among canon characters, or whether you introduce new blood.

Some "ship" audiences hate OC's with a passion - I refer to the odium that hit Riley when readers felt her OC's in Pawn to Queen took over the SS/HG agenda. That aroused strong passions (I have a number of friends who were around at that point and recall it well). Equally, I have good friends in the fandom (again they are writers) who argue with some force that there is no canon match for Severus Snape.

So, in the blue corner we have the shippers who will cry "Mary Sue!" the minute you insert a female under forty who is not hideously disfigured opposite Snape (well before anything jiggy might happen) and in the red corner you have the anti-shippers who also assert that any pairing with any female canon is impossible. Not compatible, they shout. And the biggest het pairing, him and Hermione just revolts many. I have good net friends who will NOT read my fanfic for that reason. They are still friends by the way, because I like to think that I have more to say than just Snape/Hermione. There's canon to pick over you know.

I'm on the fence. I started reading fanfic shortly after I came into fandom after OOTP, and I read my first stuff in July 2003. First recced fic was Earthwalk's "I Was Right". I wanted a good Snape/Lily story (not one of those dafter ones where he was Harry's father and the marriage with James was a baffle to fool Voldemort). I wanted it as canon as poss, but sadly IWR was roundly shafted by OOTP (this is beginning to read like a government document - all these acronyms!). I kept looking for good Snape/Lily and did not find any.

So I decided to follow Snape recs. Which led me to Snape/OFC. It was much later and by accident I discovered SS/HG. First rec was Darkness and Light, which features the blind Durmstrang transfer student and niece of Alastor Moody, Maud.

Written down like that, this sounds pure Mary Sue, and indeed the accusation has been levied at the character being Mary Sue. However, the author herself while admitting that she put a deal of her own character into this character does not have her as a Mary Sue - and in fact, neither do I. She's just not special powered enough, and certainly does not save the day. She's clever, resourceful and brave (but I'd not be interested in her getting Snape if she was not special). Maud is very good at Potions, but a Mary Sue would actually be better at Potions than Snape (Maud is not).

This story, as I wrote elsewhere, is very well written, and a damn good story in its own right. When I first read it, I was anxious to see what happened, and honestly would say, I'd have paid to read it. Loads of people have called it Mary Sue. I say "bollocks". I don't care whether Maud is a big old MS for R J Anderson - the point is she's well written, didnt make me hate her, and I cared very much about her.

The result of this was I thought you HAD to have OC's either male or female. And when I turned to writing a Snape meets a shrink story, being as there are no shrinks in canon - I had no choice but to make one up. I also wanted to make her very sympathetic indeed, but unintrusive, her purpose mainly being to interrupt what would have been a long monologue of Snape's AND to say things that as an older person who has endured a fair few unpleasant things, that I would like to say to Snape if I knew him. The only bit of self-insertion is Snape's description of living with a drinker (his father). Sadly I know that intimately. None of that is made up, take out the magic, and it is all based on real experience.

I've scrapped OC's. I was going to have a House Elf in The Only Warmth, but the damn thing got on my nerves by the end of its first scene, so out went Gilly.

The OC's in BYA are different entirely, and there is a very particular reason for the existence and role of the OC's (nearly all of them, with the exception of two or three spear carriers) which I shall be explaining when I finish the thing. Even the names are not accidental and mean something.

From my part, I like to see OC's in any fanfic. It shows the writer can make up characters (I'm not even bothered about Sue's if they are well written) and it adds depth to the story. I find exclusively ship stories a bit dull. For instance, I tend to yawn at an SS/HG story set exclusively at Hogwarts. I KNOW Hogwarts, and I KNOW SS/HG, now give me something different to look at!

However, don't overdo it. The exotic location can get a bit tired after a while. And on the subject of the OFC, I'd prefer a real name to Angelic Rosedrop Bunnypetal Fushia Serenity Moonshine.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

snapeaddict

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:23 pm

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

Actually I prefer well-written OFCs over pairings with canon characters but I read both.

I also believe there is a vast difference between a character with a hint of self-insertion and a Sue. Basically the character has to be interesting enough to be able to identify with her and if a character is too perfect - to my mind - it becomes boring. I like characters to be normal and credible. I don't know if my OFC actually lives up to these standards, one does tend to be a bit colourblind about one's own fics.

If people want to create Sues and there are people who enjoy reading that, it's okay by me, so I don't really mind. It will just cause me to hit the back-button in no time if there's another super-model genius exchange student or similar... Smile

Diana

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:21 pm

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I feel so jaded when I speak about the OFC issue.

I know I come across as jaded too. I just haven't managed to find many decent OC's in the fandom. I realize that it is down to personal taste, and apparently my personal taste is too strictly grounded in canon.

As for the shipper/non-shipper debate. I prefer HG/SS. However, if I'm going to be perfectly honest, I'm getting a little sick of the pairing too. It is getting harder to find quality, well rounded fics that feature HG/SS lately. I was actually enjoying some of the more "unconventional" HG/SS fics that were floating around on Ashwinder for about.... Oh a week or so; before the authors got blasted to all hell for not keeping to the norm and writing flowers and chocolates and all things fluffy and bull shit.

Now, to look at Ashwinder, it is all blown up, trite romance. I don't mind Hermione and Snape romance fics, but at the same time, there needs to be something more than just HG/SS getting it on X amount of times and then, the bloody end.

To be honest, I don't really see Snape being compatible with an OC, but then again, I don't honestly see canon Snape being comaptible with anyone.

I would probably love OFC pairings (with Snape in particular) more if I were able to find any that didn't scream 'Sue' to me. I happen to love Lupin/OFC pairings, in small doses, mind.

I'm simply too jaded for my own good when it comes to original characters.

coesius

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:24 am

Moderator Joined: 29 Jan 2005 Posts: 7

The main thing that bothers me with OCs is when they are inserted with only one purpose in mind: to fall in love with Snape and give him a make-over. From the first moment we meet them, they are meant only to be seen alongside Snape, as a partner instead of an individual. I feel that in many OC fics, the characters are not established enough as individuals before they are thrown into the usual Snape romance. In such instances I find it very hard to believe that this OC can ever be a real person. This would be my main argument against the OC case.
When you have a canon character paired with Snape, you know that that character exists quite allright without Snape. Take Hermione, for example. You know from the books that she has a life outside this fragment of time the author is presenting you and this makes her real. Because for me, the magical moment with an original character is the formation of the belief that this character lives and breathes outside the confines of the story as well. With a canon character that we follow so closely in the books, this is already established. Of course, it is quite different with canon characters like Snape whose lives are not revealed to us as much as the trio's lives are. Then it is back to the original dilemma of portraying a Snape that is the man from the canon and yet more.
But I don't agree with the idea of completely rejecting OCs. Because when done well, I feel as attached to an OC as I am to a canon character. Maud is as interesting and dear to me as Snape and that is where R.J. Anderson's mastery lies.

azazello

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:09 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Those interested in seeing the Mary Sue and Snape phenomenon shrewdly analysed and diagrammed should click on this link:

http://img130.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img130&image=romancing-the-snape2.gif

This chart "Romancing the Snape" was compiled by the very funny pen_and_umbra, a mate on lj. I do not fangirl many people in this world, but her I do.

And besides I was responsible for some of the more bitchy elements she uses, seeing as I told her them (green silk sheets and romantic restaurant scenarios - those were from me).

Generally, I think it's a banker of a Mary Sue if the following elements obtain:

1. She's the new DADA teacher, and yet it's hard to believe she could defend herself against a thrown blueberry.

2. She's gorgeous. I mean utterly stunning.

3. She has some kind of exotic talent. Telepathy should be avoided at all costs.

4. He conveniently muses how much he dislikes her. And she's rude to him, and he does not hex her.

5. She has an exotic name. Rosedrop Bunnypetal is something of a giveaway.

The best OFC's seem to have a purpose in the Potterverse. They can be new teachers or transfers if there is some set up and they fit in with the style of the books.

RachelW

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:52 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

coesius wrote:

I think this is a very good case against 'Mary Sues'...though not particularly a good case against all OC's. The OFC stories I've enjoyed the most have a very heavy focus on the OFC, she's a whole individual who hasn't fallen into bed with Snape at the first oppourtunity. Though, I read other OFC pairings than those paired up with Snape (I've been enjoying a particularly good story with a Sirius/OFC plotline set in books three through five, and I usually don't like Sirius, but I like this story).

But, looking at Snape, I tend to think his relationships might tend toward slightly antagonistic. So, I can see the whole insults and dwelling on why he doesn't like her.

coesius wrote:

Take Hermione, for example. You know from the books that she has a life outside this fragment of time the author is presenting you and this makes her real. .

It takes more than having a canon character to make her real to me. I've seen way too many Snape/Hermione stories where Hermione doesn't even seem to have a life outside what happens with Snape. Even if she has the canon backing, if she isn't writen in a fanfic with a good character backing she can be just as much a Sue as 'Starbringer Goldenhair' the american transfer student.

coesius wrote:

But I don't agree with the idea of completely rejecting OCs. Because when done well, I feel as attached to an OC as I am to a canon character. Maud is as interesting and dear to me as Snape and that is where R.J. Anderson's mastery lies.

Yeppers, that's what it comes down to. Is the OC someone you can see as a person with a background, a history, a unique personality? I think it's more of a challenge, and shows more writing ability to do a good OFC than it does to simply write canon names into a plot, or even to do a fairly good representation of the canon personalities. And, since to me fanfic is all about learning how to write, I see that as a step along the road to becoming a 'real' writer (one step I'm not quite ready to take). So, I tend to feel writers who do very good OFC's generally have more talent than what it takes to write a purely canon pairing and setting.

Who's Maud? (sorry if that sounds terribly ignorant)

RachelW

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:08 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

azazello wrote:

Those interested in seeing the Mary Sue and Snape phenomenon shrewdly analysed and diagrammed should click on this link:

http://img130.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img130&image=romancing-the-snape2.gif

I laughed so hard I thought I'd wake my kids on the other side of the house. Thanks for the link, I'm sharing it with all my fic friends.

azazello wrote:

The best OFC's seem to have a purpose in the Potterverse. They can be new teachers or transfers if there is some set up and they fit in with the style of the books.

Hmm. Most OFC's I've run across are DADA teachers...or the Muggle Studies teacher. It's convienient...DADA is re-filled like clockwork every year so it's the easiest way to introduce an OFC. It also ensures he'll see her on a regular basis (how does that man have time for a love life, anyway? He seems to stalk the halls in the middle of the night a lot, or maybe the teachers take turns, maybe he's not out doing that every night...it's a once a week duty shared amongst all the staff?? But then you'd think being head of Slytherin would give him sleeping-in rights or something and the hall duty would fall to the lesser staff? Okay, will shut up on Snape's schedule now).

azazello

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:00 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Maud is Maud Moody the "Potions Master's Apprentice" in the first of R J Anderson's celebrated "Darkness and Light" trilogy. It's one of the first and still the best of the bigtime Snape/OFC fics. It's actually a classic Snapefic by anyone's reckoning, and pretty much set the bar very high.

The background is that Maud was orphaned by Death Eaters when she was a child. Those DE were Rosier, Wilkes and Severus Snape - Snape had secretly changed sides at that point, and cast a spell to blind Maud temporarily in order to save her life. He was unable to reverse the spell, and she lost her sight. At the point the story opens (it happens during the timeline of OOTP) Maud had been a student at Durmstrang and came to Hogwarts for her own sixth year (or seventh, I forget). She recognises Snape by his voice. They form a sort of alliance, and fall in love.

It's well done and subtle (there's no sex, Snape behaves with restraint) and bucks the trend for teacher student. The third book is set post School and tells what happens after Maud leaves. It also features a very tense and well written final outcome for the series which I found very exciting and believable.

If there's an issue it's the "transfer from Durmstrang" bit, but then R J Anderson was writing this BEFORE there were cliches.

My issues with DADA teacher are that it has been way overdone (and to my knowledge never well) and invariably I read about this woman being DADA teacher, and she seems incapable of carrying a heavy matchbox across the room unaided.

The other cliche is that she will be loudly admired by Ron when she appears in the hall for the first time, and she may be either adored by Hermione (whom she quickly makes a pet of ) or loathed by her, as being too clever.

The best OFC's coming to Hogwarts tend to be either in a different role - Rickfan's OFC in "Chasing Darkness Away" is a library assistant, and as screwed up as Snape. Or they are not teachers at all. I have a friend writing a WIP which has the OFC as lawyer (it's set immediatly post the first fall) who knew Snape as a kid, and ends up working on his case. These OFC's actually have scenes were they do things that give them a certain amount of life on their own. It makes a deal of difference.

The ones I dislike most, are where the self insertion ends up with Snape doing things that he just would not do. Lengthy chats with sommeliers in restaurants is irritating (because frequently the author does not know enough about the subject of gourmet wining and dining to carry it off), playing baroque harpsichord music is another. Turning Snape into a bravura tango dancer (just cos Alan did it in some movie or other) smacks of dress your own dolly. The writer is making him do X Y or Z simply because it fits her fantasy, not as something which serves a story.

In Darkness and Light, I recognised Snape totally. He's the canon guy come good. He teaches Potions. He works covertly for the Order, and is loyal to Dumbledore. He waits patiently for the woman he loves, because he can offer her nothing while the struggle is still on.

In short, forget lots of other Snapes. This is the one I want to read in any fanfic. He does not have to be a big bunny, but this guy is a hero. And his girl in that fic is no Mary Sue, either. Possibly because she does not take him out dancing...

It seems to have influenced me far more than I realised!

Razzberry

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:32 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

RachelW wrote:

I think that's a perpetual problem with Snape fic in general-- how exactly are we supposed to get a character to interact with a man who is as busy as Snape must be? Hogwarts is quite isolated, after all, so the options for getting female into his line of sights are:

a) A teacher of some sort, at which point we ask 'which teacher'?
--DADA is a perpetually open position, and one he wants, so there's some built-in conflict there. From a story telling perspective, it's ideal (separate story telling elements from writing for the moment).
--Muggle Studies or Ancient Runes are two others-- unnamed teacher, which means blank slate from the books. We can create a character and claim she's been there for 10 years, and that is a fairly believable way to get Snape together with someone-- someone he knows and has known for a while.
--Make up a subject. I waver on this one. I've seen some teachers in original subjects that were VERY believable in terms of a Hogwarts education. I could buy a teacher for something like alchemy or spell writing. Then I see teachers of 'earth magick' or the like, and these are usually taught by teachers who are able to call upon the cosmic powers of the earth to create a type of magic that is stronger than anything that comes from wands. Once you start down that road, there are a LOT of bunny trails and snags along the way to snatch a character right out of the realm of believable in the context of an HP world.
--Replace an existing teacher. Who needs Hagrid anyway? Take a teacher and jerk them out of Hogwarts and place someone else in his or her place. How about a charming new Charms prof? Or make McGonagall Headmistress and voila! Transfiguration is a position that needs to be filled.

There are definite benefits to having a teacher fill the role of romantic interest, for precisely the reasons Rachel said-- convenience and realism. One of the places people meet people is at work.

And personally, I like writing the academia fics. It's fun. I enjoy classroom scenes and staff dynamics and the like, and I enjoy reading about them. I've seen people say that they get tired of seeing fics set entirely at Hogwarts-- I have to say that I get tired of seeing fics where Hogwarts is barely mentioned. There has to be a balance. Snape's a teacher, and Head of Slytherin. That school is part of his life, and it's a BIG part of his life.

b) Someone from Snape's past. Someone he went to school with, someone he loved once before. Again, this makes sense from a story telling perspective. I have a hard time stomaching 'love at first sight' (though lust at first sight is easy), so to me, the concept of a blast from the past is believable. When you start getting into the former Gryffindor student who befriended the lonely Slytherin when he was a child, once again, you're treading on thin ice with believability. That concept is stretching the bounds of believable, though if something is well-written, I'm usually able to suspend my disbelief and get past that. There's a high Mary Sue potential there, though.

c) A student/former student. Again, this is convenient because it gives a legitimate reason for the two to be interacting/to know each other, and that is the single biggest hurdle in Snape fics if you ask me.

Interestingly, if you read non-Snape fics with OFCs, the origins of the characters are far more varied. I've read three Lupin-OFC fics that stick out in my minid. One had Lupin meeting a woman in a Muggle library, one had him meeting her via Molly and one had him meeting her because she was a member of the Order. Lupin is a more mobil character, so it's easier to get him into different places believably.

Sirius Black would be difficult to get an OFC with, simply because for the entire period of time we had him, he was in hiding. Lucius would be easy because he undoubtedly moves in social circles and is not tied down anywhere.

Conclusion: It's generally difficult to get any female (OFC or otherwise) hooked up with Snape unless she has a good reason to be at Hogwarts for an extended time or she's part of his past. Because there are so few inately believable ways to bring about this sort of interaction, the handful of ways that do exist tend to be overloaded, and therefore 'overdone', but this relates as much to the size of the Snape fandom in general as it does to anything else.

And, I have to say that there's a bit of a double standard in this entire question. SSHG is a really big ship of the same two characters, and disregarding whether or not one approves of the pairing, why doesn't that get old? That's just an example of a pair of people who already have a reason to know each other because of canon, yet no one complains about the way they met. The OFC is really held to a MUCH higher standard of characterization than canon characters are, in my opinion, and it seems she gets scrutinized much more closely.

Diana

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:55 pm

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

This is a bit long....

Quote:

a) A teacher of some sort, at which point we ask 'which teacher'?
--DADA is a perpetually open position, and one he wants, so there's some built-in conflict there. From a story telling perspective, it's ideal (separate story telling elements from writing for the moment).

I think that there is a bit of subjective thinking involved with Snape and the DADA situation. On the one hand, he does appear to wish for the job. However, we have to remember that we are only seeing this story through Harry's eyes, and all that we know of Snape either comes from Harry's perspective or from what Harry has been told by others. The only true and concrete reference point we have with respect to Snape wanting the DADA position comes from Percy Weasley in PS. I think it is important to keep in mind that Hogwarts is a place where rumours run rampant, and Snape's suposed desire to teach DADA could just be that, suposed. I've taken this piece of canon with a grain of salt, because there are ways to explain away Snape's dislike for each and every one of the past DADA professors without equating it to 'he wants their job.'

1. Quirrell - He was suspect in Snape's eyes, and rightly so. Snape seemed to be more interested in twarting Quirrell from succeeding in whatever it was he was up to--stealing the stone, than stealing his job.

2. Lockhart - Everyone on the staff took exception to Lockhart. I would even argue that McGonagall disliked the jerk with as much passion as Snape did. I would be willing to bet that even Hagrid was thinking he could do a better job with DADA than Lockhart.

3. Lupin - Major history here. Is it such a stretch to believe that Snape's dislike of Lupin and his position as DADA professor had more to do with who Lupin was, and not as many speculate, what he was teaching?

4. Moody (Barty Crouch Jr.) - Again, major history. A former Auror. Snape, as a reformed Death Eater, would be very wary to warm up to this individual. The feelings were clearly mutual (with both the real and the fake Moody, for different reasons).

5. Umbridge - The first DADA professor that Snape did not come right out and openly show distain for. Keep in mind that doing so, for any teacher, was damn near lethal. McGonagall found this out the hard way. Snape was walking a very fine line in OTP, and while his distain for Umbridge, for the most part, was not shown openly, it was clearly there. At this point in the story, I honestly think that Snape could give a damn either way about snatching the DADA job.

Still, the question remains, why does the DADA professor OFC draw so much distain from readers? Simple. As Az pointed out, most readers hold little stock in a 'brilliant, true, and fearless' Defense Against the Dark Arts professor who is frightened of a tea cup. It isn't the cliche itself, at least not for me, but rather the lack of research and time invested by the author to make this situation work. For example, why is this character the DADA? In canon, there is usually a very good reason why this particular character has been chosen by Dumbledore for this position (with OTP being the exception). The DADA teacher always ties into the plot of any canon HP book in a major way. And while I will agree that not all of the DADA professors in the past have been these fearless, amazing wizards and witches, they were, for the most part, characterized correctly from the beginning. Quirrell was a horrible DADA professor, and we knew that pretty early on in PS; he wasn't characterized as an amazing and brilliant force to be reckoned with. Lockhart was a joke, something we knew from his very first appearance, and he lived up to his characterization. Lupin was a decent wizard with decent talent, he wasn't some fantastic brilliant mind, he was just a guy, who was a pretty good wizard with some pretty decent skills. Moody was there to serve a particular purpose as well, as was Umbridge. My point is this: each of these characters had a definite reason for being placed where and when they were in this story, usually the OFC as DADA teacher does not have this excuse.

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b) Someone from Snape's past. Someone he went to school with, someone he loved once before. Again, this makes sense from a story telling perspective. I have a hard time stomaching 'love at first sight' (though lust at first sight is easy), so to me, the concept of a blast from the past is believable. When you start getting into the former Gryffindor student who befriended the lonely Slytherin when he was a child, once again, you're treading on thin ice with believability. That concept is stretching the bounds of believable, though if something is well-written, I'm usually able to suspend my disbelief and get past that. There's a high Mary Sue potential there, though.

Agreed. There is a high Mary Sue potential in this scenario. There is also a distinct reason why I have a hard time getting into these types of stories; there isn't enough canon to back this scenario up. The only character I can truly believe Snape as a young man being involved with (or interested in) is Lily Evans. Of course my reasoning here is completely subjective and more tied into personal preference than actual concrete information.

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And, I have to say that there's a bit of a double standard in this entire question. SSHG is a really big ship of the same two characters, and disregarding whether or not one approves of the pairing, why doesn't that get old? That's just an example of a pair of people who already have a reason to know each other because of canon, yet no one complains about the way they met. The OFC is really held to a MUCH higher standard of characterization than canon characters are, in my opinion, and it seems she gets scrutinized much more closely.

Actually, I hold Hermione and Snape characterization to a much higher standard than I do an OFC or an OMC. I'm an SS/HG reader yes, but at the same time I'm also a very, very picky SS/HG reader. I do not buy into about 90% of the scenarios that writers place them in. Hermione is the most 'Sue'd' character in the entire fandom--that is including OFC's--in my opinion. If this were a straight debate about the characterization of Hermione in fandom, my opinions and thoughts would look strikingly similar--and staunchly snarky--to that of the OFC.

Razzberry

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:27 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

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I'll refute that briefly, only in reference to the DADA situation. There are two other sources from which we know his. One is from JKR, who discussed in an interview (no idea where this interview is) why Dumbledore wouldn't give Snape the post. The other, more convincing, is in OotP, when Umbridge is 'observing' Snape's class:

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"You applied first for the Defense Against the Dark Arts post, I believe?" Professor Umbridge asked Snape... And you have applied regularly for the Defense Against the Dark Arts post since you first joined the school, I believe?"

"Yes," said Snape quietly, barely moving his lips. He looked very angry.

Applying the laws of Occam's Razor, if he applies for it regularly, he wants the position.

Now, I'm not saying that every DADA OFC would irk him the way the ones we've seen do, but I'll maintain that there is some built-in conflict in the arrangement. I'm not suggesting the level of rivalry we'd see between Snape and Lupin or Snape and Moody(Crouch), but you cannot convince me that if Jane gets the post John has always wanted and has regularly applied for, that John isn't going to be miffed. And in my conceptualization of him, a miffed Snape is one who will be looking for a reason to hate the person who gets the coveted position.

Now, do I think Snape would try to poison the DADA teacher? No. And I'm not making excuses for weak DADA professor characters. I have a hard time with any female character who is such a weakling that she can't carry the matchbox across the room unaided. I am defending the scenario as a valid one, separate from the issue of characterization.

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My point is this: each of these characters had a definite reason for being placed where and when they were in this story, usually the OFC as DADA teacher does not have this excuse.

Mine did

I'm going to put this back into a problem of writing and the character in general.

Same with the person from Snape's past. I don't see him having scores of lovers in his past, and it would be tough to sell that to me. But I'd probably buy an acquaintance from when he was in school. Maybe a younger Slytherin or someone from another House but in his year. Again, it goes back to how its written, and how the character is built.

Basically, I'm not challenging that there are really horrible OFCs out there, just as there are really horrible (supposedly) canon characters out there. And I'd argue that there's probably much of a difference in the ratio of any character who is popular to write with. Pick a random percentage, if 90% of the Hermiones are Sues, I'd say it's a similar figure for the others. 90% of the Ginnys and 90% of the OFCs and 90% of the Tonkses. Incidentally, I'd lump most of the remaining female characters from the books into the OFC category. There is simply no way anyone is ever going to convince me that we know enough about Pansy Parkinson or Rolanda Hooch to make them into 'canon' characters.

I'm challenging the idea that there are scenarios that make an OFC a 'Mary Sue'. That she's a DADA Professor or that she's a blast from the past have no bearing whatsoever on how Mary Sueish she is. It comes back to the question of how well something is written, and that does not seem to be linked to whether or not the character is an OFC.

There is where my statement about holding OFCs to a higher standard comes in (I didn't mean the original statement as being directed to anyone personally, and I don't mean the rebuttal directed to anyone in particular.) The fandom has this tendency to say that 'OFCs are more likely to be Mary Sues' when in my own reading experience, it's a pervasive problem all over the fandom, and when the only thing a fanfic character shares with canon is a name, that character is less maligned than if she were clearly an original character.

Or, to phrase it a little more concretely-- I have a story on Occlumency about an OFC DADA teacher. Are people not reading this story simply because they assume the DADA teacher is a Mary Sue? Would those same people be more likely to give the story a chance if it were Tonks in this role, but nothing else changed? If 90% of the SSHG are badly written with bad characterizations, and 90% of the OFCs are badly written stories revolving around a Mary Sue, then why are you (you being anyone to whom this applies) more willing to wade through the SSHG crap to get to the one good one than you are to wade through the SSOFC crap to get to the one good one?

Diana

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:39 pm

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I supose I should clarify. I'm referring to Snape's dislike of the DADA professors tying directly into his desire for the job. I still believe that there is more behind Snape's 'desire' to teach DADA than what we are being told. Of course, all of that is simply speculation on my part. I have a feeling that Snape was more pissed off about Umbridge being in his classroom than he was about her asking about DADA. Then again this all boils down to how you view Snape as a character; many of his actions and comments are open to reader speculation since they are not shown from his direct point of view.

I had actually forgotten about the classroom scene with Umbridge in OTP, just goes to show now much I need to review before July 16. I don't doubt that he has applied for the job each year, he is after all probably the most qualified, but I don't automatically buy that he does it out of simple desire. Again, this is speculation.

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If 90% of the SSHG are badly written with bad characterizations, and 90% of the OFCs are badly written stories revolving around a Mary Sue, then why are you (you being anyone to whom this applies) more willing to wade through the SSHG crap to get to the one good one than you are to wade through the SSOFC crap to get to the one good one?

The easy answer to this question, for me, is that I like HG/SS stories. The more accurate answer would be that I wade through both, and while I may lean more toward HG/SS, I do read both. I do prefer Snape and Hermione, I'm not apologizing for that (and I know that you weren't asking either), but I'm not adverse to SS/OFC either. My problem is that I've had better luck with HG/SS, and I've had very bad luck with OFC stories.

Of couse my experience and someone else's experience is going to differ on this matter. I'm sure there are HG/SS and SS/OFC readers who have had it the other way around.

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