Sycophant Hex Forum Index
Author Message

<  The Common Room  ~  Confusion of a reader.......(discussion starter)

Lillith
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:56 am Reply with quote
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 3
I am your common HP Fanfic reader. I don't write fanfic. It's not from a lack of confidence but from a lack of talent. Years ago I started searching ff.net for stories from a different fandom when I literally stumbled upon HP Fic. SS/HG in specific. The first stories I read were the horrible detention smut fics. But I liked the pairing. It appealed to me, not because I thought that Snape was sexy or attractive in any way, because I thought that it was an interesting couple.

I joined WIKTT because it was like a giant links page for me. Since then I have paticipated in a few of their weekly chat's and read some of their more intense discussions. And It is now that I have to ask......Why is it that so many people are so adamant about Canon?

I understand the basic concept. You have to keep the characters somewhat true to canon or else what your writing is fiction not fan-fiction.The thing that I don't understand is why there are so many posts about the character's being OOC. Noone can write the character's [i]In Character [/i] other than JKR. Because everyone interprets the characters in their own way.

So If I see Hermoine as a character that is spoiled and arrogant, because that is the way that I understand her when I read the books, Am I wrong? And if I read a story where she changes the way she behaves as she grows into adulthood I am certainly not going to say "That would never happen. Hermoine wouldn't do that" It's not hard to believe that a person changes as they grow up. It seems strange to assume that she would act the same way that she did when she was 12 forever.

I think the only character I can even try to know well is Harry and that's because the books are from his point of view. Which means that all the characters are portrayed as Harry interprets them. When I was younger my friends and I would sit around and make suggestions of what we would like to see happen on our favorite television shows. I like fanfiction for the same reason I loved those discussions. Because it's fun to say "hey wouldn't it be crazy if Hermoine and Draco started dating later in the books" and then go online and read a few stories about it.

I see fanfic as a fun sort of relaxation technique. I don't look for a story that is perfection. I don't expect for any of the authors to be perfect. All I want is a story that I can get lost in for a few hours so that I can forget how lousy work or classes were that day. If the plot is awful that's fine. Just go to another story. Am I the only one that feels this way?

I was completely confused to see that there is this elitist attitude between authors that I have seen more and more lately. How is it that a group of people, that are essentially trying their hand at another person's masterpiece, can say that they are better than everyone else? Does my being a non-writing fan of HP fanfic make my opinion worthless? Is it not the reader's that make the author? Do you write only to impress other authors? Or do you write so that others can see the story that your imagination developed?

I was just wondering about all of this and decided that I should ask. I am not in any way trying to be rude or insulting to anyone. I am just a curious person. I'm sure there are grammatical errors in this post. But I am too tired to care.
View user's profile Send private message
snapeaddict
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:24 am Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
Lillith, I'm glad you wrote that, so I know there are still readers out there who see fan fiction as a sort of "game".

I think fan fiction is all about playing and experimenting with the given characters. I do think there are limitations to the characters that are set by canon and I like stories to be as close to canon as possible, but as you say, characters may change with age or through certain events.

Stories that go wildly off-canon and have the characters change profoundly are not my cup of tea and I am not very likely to read or enjoy them but if authors want to write more "experimental" or "off-canon" stories they have every right to do so without being ripped to bits by the canon defenders....my opinion anyway. I would only recommend to put an AU or "slightly OOC" as a warning or write something about that in the Author's Note so people are "warned".

Then again it is very difficult to decide what is "off-canon". I think the books leave a lot of room for interpretation of the characters and we cannot safely say this character is so and so... It's like in real life, we try to interpret what we see and sometimes we are wrong in our assumptions about a person and are surprised.

I wouldn't say your view of Hermione is "wrong" but I see her differently. I think initially she was very insecure and tried to compensate. She starts becoming more confident now but what comes across as arrogance is really her trying to cover her insecurity. See? Same books, two different Hermiones. If we both wrote a fic, "our" Hermiones would be different. Catastrophe? No... I don't think so, that is the interesting thing about fan fic.

I am very picky if it comes to Snape. I have a very exact picture of "my" Snape. For example I don't like fics where he is married and going all soppy but if people want to write that...why not? It's "their" Snape. Of course I believe "my" Snape to be closest to Rowling's Snape but then everyone does because it's their interpretation of the character in the books. I wouldn't go postulating my view of Snape as some sort of law of nature.

So in general I say we should all be a bit more tolerant and open-minded about people who have different views on the characters and play with their own interpretations. A bit more relaxed. I think I'm repeating myself all the time in the forums as that "stick to canon or you are a stupid fangirl who cannot write"-attitude has been bothering and confusing me all along.

Personally, I take fan fiction as a game, an experiment and as a means to gain writing practice. I enjoy stories that are well-written from a "technical", stylistic point of view. Well-written stories often capture me even if they are (to my taste) wildly off-canon or I find it hard to stomach parts of the plot.
View user's profile Send private message
Diana
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:59 am Reply with quote
Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116
Well Lilith, I like your name by the way, it is my mum's name; I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

First, a little personal background; I do not write in the HP fandom. I do leisure reading, as well as beta and admin work, but I do not write Harry Potter fictions. My reasons for not writing differ from yours. I do not write in the fandom because I write original fiction, in fact the only fanfiction that I have ever penned was offline, and was for practice. None of it has ever been published online, and it will never be either.

Now, to answer your questions. I do not believe that my attitude on canon usage in fanfic is elitist, and I'm hard pressed not to take offense to the characterization. However, I do understand your reasoning for thinking so, even if I strongly disagree with your assessment. So, why do I think canon usage is so utterly important? Simple. Fanfiction is not truly fanfiction without canon. Don't get me wrong, it isn't original fiction either, it is a special brand of writing that I refer to as wankage. It is a waste of time, it is a waste of space, and for those rare writers who do in fact have a smidge of talent in them, yet continue to write horribly out of character fanfiction, it is just a waste.

I do not understand how someone who writes out of character fanficiton can call themselves a fan, but that is just my opinion on the matter. For example, Severus Snape is not a physically attractive individual yet he might as well be Brad Pitt in some of the more squee fangirls wankage (i.e. bad fanfiction). Another example is Draco Malfoy who is not a nice, misunderstood child; he is a spoiled, sniveling, racist brat. Don't believe me? Look to some of J.K. Rowling's press comments on the subject matter.

In addition, it is essentially J.K. Rowling's world that writers are paying their respect to each and everytime they put pen to paper and write on the HP fandom. Why disrespect her in that way? Why take her characters and butcher them to shreds and make them unrecognizable?

If writers wish to write about Draco Malfoy as a nice, misunderstood child or Severus Snape as a buff sex god, why not make the extra effort to create their own characters who are nice and misunderstood or buff and sexy?

Another issue I have with these particular pieces of trash is that most of these fangirls have never even bothered to read the books. Don't believe me? Ask them, they will tell you. Most of them have either only seen the films (ground work canon, yes. Real canon ... bah!) or they have been introduced to the fandom through other's fanfiction. Trust me, these fangirls aren't writting their wankage because they are fans of J.K. Rowling's world, they are writting their wankage because they think it would be cool if their name were Hermione, and they wish to get off with Snape (add other characters/pairings at will).

Case in point, do you honestly think that so many of these fangirls would fawn over Draco Malfoy like he were the second coming if the producers of the films would have hired some scraggly looking, pimply teenager for the part? No, they wouldn't. They squee in their glee over Draco Malfoy because they have papered their bedroom walls with Tom Felton and cannot distinguish between the two. It really is that simple. The same goes with many of the other morally ambiguous/reprehensible characters; Lucius Malfoy being the newest big hit since SS hit the theatres. I happen to have a small crush on Jason Isaacs myself, but I prefer him without the Pam Anderson (the actor's words) wig, pimp cane, and Victorian come Gothic went off the road at Rococo and died a horribly painful death attire.

And in conclusion,

Is it not the reader's that make the author?
No. As an author I do not write for the reader, I write for myself. I write because I am a creative individual and wish to express my ideas (note: my ideas as in I write my own canon in my own original fiction) how I see fit. I'm honestly unconcerned about how my reader may feel about what I have written. I write for me, not for you.

Oh, and as a side note. I am currently in the process of editing my first full novel length fiction. Hopefully, eventually I will be published. And when I am, if my writing were to ever be manipulated in the same way as J.K. Rowling's has been (not that I can even fathom ever having even a small fraction of the following she does) I will make Anne Rice look like the most fan accessible author in the literary field today.
View user's profile Send private message
snapeaddict
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:47 am Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
That is just what I mean... sorry, but I DO take offense here. I have read ALL the books, in English in German, two of them in French and one in Spanish. I think I do know my way around canon and am too old to qualify as a fan"girl". I am too old to fancy Tom Felton or plaster my walls in posters of him. Still - as you know - I'm in the process of writing a fiction where he is just that: misunderstood.

Why is it that people think they know me and have figured me out just because I happen to have a different view on a literary character? It is still my conviction that there is more to Draco Malfoy than we have seen so far. I still have a hunch that there will be a "time of decision". A time to do away with enmities. And this is based on hints in canon. Dumbledore says repeatedly that they won't stand a chance against Voldemort if they keep fighting among themselves, the Sorting Hat said so in his song in OotP and Sir Nicholas said so, too. Harry's reaction was to look over at the Slytherin table and say something like "Fat chance...". I don't think Rowling put that in the books for no reason. In the books there's a lot to be found about tolerance and overcoming prejudice. Take Krum, take Snape...characters that appear evil have good sides, characters that appear almost angelic (James and Sirius) have flaws (the Pensieve scene)...

There are people of different ethnicity at Hogwarts and they are not standing out, which also shows the general idea of diversity, tolerance and friendship cross-"ethnic", cross-"sexes" (Hermione-Ron-Harry), so why not cross-Houses?

You may shoot me, you may tar and feather me or do whatever you please but that is how I see canon characters. There is potential in Draco Malfoy. So far we have seen very little from him apart from his ridiculous attempts to mimick his father and impress his mates and we have never really seen him alone (except for a few scenes like the one in Borgin and Burkes).

I really hope, Draco will leave the shadow of his father and either become an evil character in his own right or (and that is what I strongly suspect might happen) eventually emancipate himself and take REALLY independent decisions i.e. change, help Harry...

It is no secret that I have a thing for Jason Isaacs and that his interpretation of Malfoy had a great influence on the way I see Lucius in the books but then again Rowling did not object to his interpretation of the role, did she? I like the Pam Anderson wig (and so does Jason, at least he said he was looking forward to being able to wear it again) and I like his silly gothic attire...I'm a sorry sod - there you are. But I'm far from being a stupid fangirl plastering her walls in Tom Felton posters and I feel VERY offended if people call me a "wanker" or my fictions "wankage".

I write original fiction as well and have been writing ever since I learnt to write and I see fan fiction as a good way of practicing and experimenting. I have the highest respect for JKR and can't see where I'm being disrespectful just because I elaborate on the possibility that there may be more to Draco Malfoy than we can conclude from his behaviour in the books so far. That's what fan fiction is all about. Filling the gaps. When I'm writing fan fiction I see it as a tribute to JKR and the universe she created.

If that is disrespectful, then ANY fan fiction is as we can never be sure our characters are exactly the way JKR intended them to be.
View user's profile Send private message
Razzberry
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:12 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82
First, a comment about fanfiction in general and JKR specifically.

JKR has got to be the single most tolerant author I've ever heard of. She not only permits fanfiction and fan art and the like, she encourages it. Believe me, not all authors do, and I respect that decision. Most authors seem to tolerate fanfiction, so long as you don't try to make money off of it and as long as everyone is really clear about who the stuff really belongs to. The last 'fandom' I was in was Wheel of Time, and I did role playing there, and the author's attitude was basically that he didn't care if people wrote in his 'world' but he specifically said that he had issues with people writing fanfics about his characters in erotic situations. We, the fans, merrily wrote in his world and left his characters alone. Every single character was an other character in that world, and OOC had an entirely different meaning in the context I was used to before settling into HP. I ran one of those role play sites for a while, and we had very strict rules, in fact-- no one was allowed to touch a 'canon' character. Some of them might be mentioned in passing, as people whom everyone would know, but no one in these communities I was a part of would have dreamed of 'moving' a character we hadn't created (ie-- the central character of the books is named Rand, I would have never had a character have a conversation with this guy.) Coming to HP from this environment, it was quite a shock to me to see what people *do* to JKR's characters.

It's still a shock.

I write fanfic for fun. I don't take it too personally or too seriously, but I confess that the only reason in the world that I write (or read) the stuff is because JKR is very supportive of it. Which astounds me. If I were ever a published writer, I don't know that I would be able to look the other way if people started pairing off my characters and having them do things that would make a porn star blush or a middle schooler look mature.

That said...

I can see both sides of the argument. When I read fanfic (and I confess that I'm absolutely horrid about reading it, and if that makes me a snob since I write it, so be it.) I prefer to see characters stay 'in character'. And that's a fairly loose interpretation for me. It's like Diana said about Snape-- he's a greasy git. If you turn him into adonis, I'm going to have issues.

I'll also say that there are only half a dozen or so characters whom I think I, as a reader of canon, know anything about. I certainly don't have any idea what Lucius Malfoy's personality is like. I don't know if Draco will or won't be redeemed. I don't know whether or not Bill Weasley listens to death metal. I do know that if Neville seems a little slow, so if I were to see him representing the school in an academic competition and kicking butt and taking names, I'd be raising my eyebrows.

I suppose that I'm fairly laid back, and perpetually amused by the double standard. I've seen the same people who howl about 'OOC' write PWP with the characters, and you can't get much more OOC than that in my opinion. And I've seen people complain about something a character would 'never' do and I'm left wondering if the character in question is the canon version or the fanon version. If we're talking canon characters, I think we can get rid of Occlumency and Ashwinder all together because the handful of stories left that canon Snape would actually be involved in could fit neatly on Lumos. Does that mean that I think the other 1500 fics are bad? Not at all.

As writers, I think we need to respect the author's wishes (in this case JKR) and as she seems tolerant, I think we as readers and writers of fanfic should be no less tolerant.

I also believe very firmly in free speech, and I fully respect that some people have very different opinions, and I would never dream of trying to say that any one opinion (be it mine or someone else's) is inherently 'better' or 'worse' than any other opinion. It is also a fact of online writing communities that not everyone is going to like everything every author puts out. Readers certainly have the right to voice their opinions. By the same token, writers have the right to write what they want.

And if what a writer wants to write and what a reader wants to read are not the same thing, my suggestion is usually for the reader to read something else that they *do* want to read. but that tends to be my opinion on a lot of things. I get irritated with people complaining about the garbage that's on TV or the crap that gets printed in the newspaper. No one forces you to read/watch/listen to it.

Who makes a writer? Writers aren't 'made', they're born. My experience with writers is that they are imaginative children who begin spinning stories as soon as they're able to communicate. They begin writing stories down as soon as they learn how to connect loops and arcs and lines into letters, and they will write no matter what you do to them. You could put a writer on a desert island with a pen and paper, and they can amuse themselves until the die of dehydration or are rescued, whichever comes first. You can't stop a writer from writing short of murder, and it is entirely irrelevant whether or not anyone ever reads a word of it.

Something magical happens when writers write something and share it and readers enjoy it.

Readers make a writer popular, and readers make a writer wealthy, but there is some deity or star or other equally intangible if no less important factor that makes a writer a writer.

Writers are a lot like any other artist, really-- there is a concept of 'pop' writing which is very formulaic and often quite enjoyable, like 'pop' music. It can get tiresome to those who appreciate the art for what it is, and there are those who decry pop art as the deterioration of art itself. There are those artists who strike out and dare to be different, to separate themselves from the mainstream. They compose from their hearts and souls, and they always find a niche. There are the ones who begin with their hearts, but begin to let their fans dictate to them, generally amid wails from their original fans that they have 'sold out' to the masses.

There's nothing wrong with writing what is popular, or with giving the fans what they want. There's nothing wrong with sticking to your guns and giving the fans what you want them to have. There's nothing wrong with a reader who grows upset over that has been written and complaining about it to anyone who will listen. There's nothing wrong with writers ignoring them.

As it happens, it's a game of buy and sell. The writer has a product that he or she is offering, and the reader has some purchasing power. If the reader buys what the writer sells, then it's all good. If not, the reader goes elsewhere, and the writer continues to offer, because eventually the right buyer will come along.

As for the original question, I firmly believe it's a matter of taste, and I tend to think that if someone doesn't like OOC characterizations, that is certainly his or her prerogative. If someone else does, that doesn't make him or her less or more anything, just different. And I think different is what makes the world interesting.
View user's profile Send private message
snapeaddict
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:24 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
Razz, you're saying exactly what I was thinking. I am so annoyed with all those generalising statements like "This is something canon-xyz would NEVER do" or "Everyone who writes....is just a silly, stupid fangirl..." or "Anyone who thinks this or that is no real fan" or "Anyone who likes this or that character has obviously not read the books"...

I believe in diversity in every respect and as long as Rowling herself does not object to fan fic and fan art in whatever shape or form I think we should be just as tolerant.

After all...what is IC or OOC depends on our own interpretation of the canon characters. Hand a text to a hundred people and ask them about its meaning. You will most likely get a hundred different answers. Some may be similar but I think there's really a lot of room for interpretation in any text.

I just can't understand why people blurt out these things in that accusatory tone. "Fictions that use...are all crap." "People who write about...are silly." "People who like reading...are plain stupid." I just don't get it.

Let's be tolerant...live and let live. I prefer fics to be close to "canon" (or my own interpretation of canon), too. But if there are people who want to read and write other fics...it won't hurt me, will it? So I just don't read them and that's that.
View user's profile Send private message
Razzberry
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:29 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82
Quote:
I am so annoyed with all those generalising statements like "This is something canon-xyz would NEVER do" or "Everyone who writes....is just a silly, stupid fangirl..." or "Anyone who thinks this or that is no real fan" or "Anyone who likes this or that character has obviously not read the books"...


Ah, but you see, it goes both ways. Just as I think that only JKR has the right to dictate what is and is not permissable, I feel that everyone has the same right to express their opinions of it.

I disagree with a lot of what Diana said, but it doesn't offend me in the slightest that she said it. I probably do some of the things that irritate her in fanfiction, but I'm not going to get upset and hate her (that would be silly since I don't know her). And if she wants to go off in her LJ about me and what crap I write, I feel like that's her prerogative. I would just hope she wouldn't get offended if I ignored it. (and incidentally, like I said, I don't know Diana from Adam. I have no idea if she even has a Live Journal or if she does what she writes in it, I'm just using her as an example since I happen to disagree with her :WinkSmile

I hear people make comments that they'll 'tolerate anything except intolerance'. I gladly tolerate intolerance as well.

My experience is that fighting requires two parties, and usually either one of them could put a stop to it if they felt like it. The bickering I've seen over fanfiction and OOC and quality... it comes from both sides, both of whom are standing on a soap box made of principles, and as long as they're on their soap boxes, the bickering continues. That's fine. Just don't expect me to take a side. As Voltaire is oft-misquoted as saying, "I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll defend until death your right to say it." And I happen to apply this equally bad fanfic writers who misspell every third word (and I have seen those out there. They're pretty bad. And I tend to wince and think 'what is so hard about running spell check? Just hit the F-7 key.') and to the excellent, elitist writers who bitch about how horrible all fanfic is, theirs excepted (even if I happen to think, 'I've read some of your stuff, and I never once mistook it for fine literature.') The point is, I think their opinions and points are every bit as valid as the writer who says 'don't read it if you don't like it'. Vice versa.

I don't know. Why can't we all just get along? Because everyone has to be willing to get along, and if any one person isn't, it kind of tosses a kink in the works, and I've not seen much concession from either side. Again, that's limited experience, but still...
View user's profile Send private message
snapeaddict
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:36 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
I do get along, Razz. That's not the problem and I'm not getting on any soap boxes either. In fact, Diana happens to be my beta and I have not the slightest reason to "hate" her.

Probably you are right about ignoring these opinions but then again we might just as well do away with all forums because they are about discussions.

I just don't like being accused of being a bad person and a horrible writer just because I happen to disagree with someone. They may be as intolerant as they wish to be about canon about which fics they like and which ones are crap but I won't have anyone call me a "wanker"...

If that is getting on a soap box or picking a fight then I'm sorry,... I'll call it defending myself.
View user's profile Send private message
Diana
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:57 pm Reply with quote
Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116
Razzberry, don't worry, your safe. I don't have a livejournal. Smile

Even if I did have a LJ to whinge on, I probably wouldn't.
View user's profile Send private message
sophierom
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:40 am Reply with quote
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 24 Location: Cambridge, MA
I got a little carried away in the length of this post. Sorry. Trying to avoid work, I guess! Smile

Quote:
I hear people make comments that they'll 'tolerate anything except intolerance'. I gladly tolerate intolerance as well.


First, I have to say that I'm quite impressed, Razzberry, with your tolerance, especially given the comments flying back and forth about your recent fic, "Mistakes Men Make." It's one thing to talk about tolerance abstractly; it's another thing to practice it while under fire. Kudos to you!

Second - Lillith, what great, provocative questions! As someone who really enjoys reading and writing fanfic, I'm always a little amazed by the vehemence that emerges from the different factions within this community. I think there are two aspects of this debate that are both frightening and encouraging at the same time: the issue of interpretation and, closely linked to this, the issue of free speech.

As you and snapeaddict have both pointed out, interpretation is central to defining "canon." It's true, as Diana argues, that canon has its limits. An author must actually read and make an attempt to understand Rowling's characters if she is going to write true "fan" fiction.

But, happily, the many of us who have read Rowling's works all envision JKR's world a little differently. This is something to celebrate, I think, as it suggests we're not all passive automatons who accept the films or some standardized version of the HP universe. Indeed, Philosopher's Stone itself held this lesson in some ways: the Trio interprets Snape's cruel remarks, ugly appearance, and general nastiness as a sign of his innate evil. They don't give meek, stuttering Quirrel a thought. In PoA, Sirius is supposed to be the villain. In GoF, fake!Moody is, well, fake. The HP universe is full of warnings about the dangers of allowing appearance or others' opinions sway our own judgments. Canon also contains lessons about the dangers of single-mindedness. In OotP, Cornelius Fudge and Dolores Umbridge are so stubborn about their view of their own world that they are almost as villainous as the Death Eaters in their attempts to block Dumbledore and Harry. And then, of course, there are Voldemort's extremely intolerant views. If there ever was a set of books that have railed against intolerance, stubbornness, and superficiality, the Harry Potter books, in my opinion, are definitely it.

So, my point in all this? Rowling, by the very themes of her books, suggests that multiple points of view are acceptable, even necessary in a working society. Those who suggest canon is absolutely not important and those who argue that there is one interpretation of canon (theirs) and it must be followed strictly - both of these groups risk the danger of being so stubborn in their views that they negate the whole point of fanfiction. Btw, I don't think anyone on this forum falls into either of these extreme camps. And I don't mean to compare anyone to Voldemort! Wink I'm just saying that, though we may not agree with the varying interpretations out there, I think, given the nature of the books we're discussing, we need to be tolerant of multiple interpretations.

However, none of this is to say that people can't or shouldn't discuss the validity of a fanfic author's interpretation.

This is where free speech comes in. If Diana, for example, were to read one of my fics and think - wow, Sophie's Snape is extremely OOC! - she should have every right to tell me that in a review. I am sure, having read Diana's polite and eloquent post, she would tell me this in a very reasonable way. Hopefully, I'd be mature enough to respond in an equally reasonable manner. The thing about free speech is that there are very few rules or restraints (hence the free! Congrats, Sophie, on pointing out the obvious). But if free speech is to be productive, we as citizens of fandom have to practice self-restraint. So, in this way, free speech is something of a paradox because I think the freest of speech, completely unfiltered, is usually unproductive. But, speech that is controlled by the state or some other external source is equally unproductive. Therefore, it's up to me, you, the individual to practice restraint and therefore make speech useful, meaningful.

The founders of the U.S. (who weren't incredibly democratic, despite their "all men are created equal" bit, but are still useful to quote every once in a while!) believed in civic virtue - the idea that if a republic is to work, citizens have to practice restraint and act dispassionately, to make decisions that are best for the society even if those decisions aren't the best for one's self interest. Of course, fandom isn't a republic, but I think if a real, open conversation is going to take place, I have to be willing to use restraint when reviewing and, as a writer, I have to practice restraint when responding to reviews.

Given that we're speaking in a virtual world, where my version of "restraint" might be different than yours, this is no simple matter. And since I can't read your facial expressions or hear your tone of voice, I might interpret your words in a different way than you intended. But I'd hope - and i think for the most part, this is true - that we could give each other the benefit of the doubt. Except for those fangirls whom Diana described, we do all share a commonality- we have been enthralled, for some reason or another, by Rowling's creations.

I wish that we could remember this commonality because, at the risk of sounding really cheesy, I find being in this community a really amazing thing. To think, there are hundreds of people out there whom I'll never see or hear or meet but who are willing to exchange ideas with me. That is so fucking exciting! Sorry, got a little carried away there. But really, that we can talk to people we don't know - strangers, foreigners, people who may have incredibly different lifestyles than our own - this is really encouraging to me. According to the nightly news, we're all set on killing each other as fast as we can. But, in this other world, there seems to be some hope that people can get along. Okay, I told you this was getting cheesy, so I'll stop. Sorry for getting a little carried away. I promise not to post again for a while, thereby practicing the self-restraint I spent so much space discussing! Smile

Best,
Sophie

_________________
Feel free to check out my livejournal page, which, I'll be honest, is a bunch of silly rambling, but just in case you like silly rambling: Completely Lost
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Lillith
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:25 am Reply with quote
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 3
I didn't think there would be so much to read within 24 hours of posting my question. I am not so much taking a stand on anything. I was just stating my own opinion. Everything that happens "behind the scenes" of stories is really unimportant to me. What really matters is the story. If the story/book is written well, and I like it, then whatever the authors personal opinions are on other literature or other authors it doesn't change the quality of that story.

Like I said I understand the need for basic canon structure in fanfic. I just don't think authors should be made to feel bad for using a little imagination. Oh and to clear this up: when I used the word elitist it wasn't meant as an insult. The defintion of the word is
[quote]The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. [/quote]
That's just the way that I see some people act.

And while I completely understand and agree with the dislike of "fangirl" stories where grammar is unheard of. I think that younger girls have just as much right to write that as others do to write remarkable stories. It gives teen girls something to come together and enjoy with one another. And whenever they want to spend their time reading instead of doing drugs or joining gangs then I say more power to them. I'm ranting now *L* OK I'll stop. Just more of my own opinions. I look forward to reading more views on these topics.
View user's profile Send private message
snapeaddict
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:41 am Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48
sophierom wrote:
So, my point in all this? Rowling, by the very themes of her books, suggests that multiple points of view are acceptable, even necessary in a working society.


My words exactly...

Quote:
According to the nightly news, we're all set on killing each other as fast as we can. But, in this other world, there seems to be some hope that people can get along.


Don't worry, Sophie...I'm not bent on killing anyone. Wink I do accept different opinions and I don't "hate" people for voicing theirs.

And as you say, if anyone does not like my stories, they are absolutely free to say so...in a polite way. This is all I'm asking for. What I have been annoyed with though was that people throwing around insults and lumping together everything and everyone, calling this and that "wankage" and other people "wankers". That is really where my tolerance of other people's opinion stops, when they start insulting anyone who thinks differently.

I have absolutely no problem with people who believe fan fictions that do not stick to canon are not worth reading. If they express their views in a polite non-generalising way. I would not call them names or say they are bad people. Others have far less difficulty with labelling and insulting people and THAT is what I'm clearly intolerant of. I don't think that makes me a bad person either.

All I'm asking for is that ALL people - no matter what they think about canon, fanon, characters and ships - should treat each other with respect. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion and that is basically a good thing. But absolutely no one has the right to call me names, not even indirectly (i.e. in saying that "anyone who...."). That is all I'm asking for and I don't think that is being intolerant.
View user's profile Send private message
Diana
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:00 am Reply with quote
Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116
I have no problem in treating people with the respect that they deserve, but I'm not going to coddle ignorance either. In other words, I'm speaking to those particular authors (and yes, I do call them fangirls) who, after receiving a polite and concise negative review, choose to throw attacks at the reviewer.

It isn't my, or any other readers, job to place authors, or their awful written stories, on a pedestal. It isn't my job to tell them how great I think they are and how "coolies" and "brill" their writing is, when it is most definitely not.

Please keep in mind that I'm talking about a completely different brand of writing and authors than I believe any of you to be talking about. I'm not talking about authors who simply write bad stories; believe it or not, some of the best authors in fandom today started out writing crap I wouldn't use to clean my floors with. I'm talking about those authors who continue, in an endless cycle, to write horribly written fiction, yet think they are special for crawling out from under their rock and contributing to the fandom. They are not special, and they are not contributing in any tactful or tasteful way to the fandom.

When I read a story, if I like it I say so, and I point out, in a clear and concise way, why I liked it. If I do not like the story, I say so, again in a clear and concise way, why I did not like it. If the writer wishes to be a true and decent contributor to the fandom, they will reply back to my review and either explain, again clearly and concisely, why they disagree, or they will try to improve. When I take the time to write a polite and, in my opinion, helpful review of a story, only to get a response along the lines of, "u suxxors, ur such a beeoch, y don u shut da fuk up an stoop flamn mee, u hor.... i will nvr rite gain beecauze o u." I feel little inclination to show that writer any form of respect.

I'm speaking not only as a reader here, but also an author (although not in the fandom). I would never insult my readers in such a way, and I do not appreciate being insulted by these particular writers either. I find it odd that some readers, such as Lillith, do not see that they too are being severely disrespected by some of the more pathetic writers out there. Believe it or not, they aren't interested in entertaining you or writing something for you to enjoy, they are interested in you going and reading their story, and then stroking their over-embellished ego. Their ultimate goal isn't to write stories, they just want a name; they want to be popular and recognized.

Again, I'm not talking about all authors, just a certain, select group of them within the fandom. Believe it or not, I do not gather pitchforks and torches at the center of the town village, and set out to tar and feather these fangirls, or even non-fangirl authors (some of which are just as bad at storytelling). I usually leave a review, a very comprehensive review, and then I wait. If the author responds back with any semblance of intelligence, my work is done. If I have caused them to ask questions, or at least take the time to answer mine, I have done my job. If I just get back a reply like the one I mentioned above, I just snicker and hit the back button. And yes, the words wankage and fangirl can be heard coming out of my mouth as well. I'm not going to apologize for it. This is how I feel, it isn't going to change, they can either take it in their stride and attempt some form of improvement, or they can go on writing their wankage, and I can go on calling it wankage.
View user's profile Send private message
Snape Fan
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29
Speaking from a strictly fanfiction reader and not author point of view, I'd like to say that I enjoy reading the different Snapes, Hermiones, Dracos, etc. that you writers create, even if I'm guilty of thinking, "...would never do or say that."

Who am I to say if they would or not? You, not me created the story and you can have your characters interact the way you see them (even if Razz does insist on some Snape/OC when she knows it's Snape/Hermione! Wink )

And I'll be the first to say that while JKR does write Snape as being greasy, big nose, not handsome, etc., I also don't see him as having the receding hairline and flat head that is seen in the picture in OoTP, since he's never been described as having either (and while we're on the subject of greasy, in my opinion most greasy people also have body odor, another thing which Snape is never accused of having which makes me think he does at least shower)

All that being said, I am guilty of picturing my Snape as Alan Rickman in whatever story I'm reading. Just as I see Jason Issacs as Lucius and Tom Felton as Draco, Rupert Grint as Ron, etc. Since JKR didn't object to any of those actors portraying the characters I don't think she has a problem with the perceptions they bring to them.

A story which has already been mentioned before, Mistakes Men Make, by Razz is an example of the different views we readers see. As Razz knows from my reviews, I was furious at the way McGonagall reacted to Snape. But on looking back after the story was completed, I wondered why my reaction was so strong? We have no canon on the relationship between those two. They could be very close friends, they could barely tolerate each other, or they could hate each other. I reacted the way I did because of my view of their relationship, which I see as friendship. But who's to say? Certainly not me.

But isn't the whole point of fanfiction to enjoy what authors write, whether or not you agree or disagree with what's written? You can take what JKR has written and build on it as you see fit because I believe some canon needs to stay. But a few allowances have to be made too or we wouldn't have fanfiction. Razz is writing a Snape/OC story right now that I'm enjoying in spite of the fact that I don't think the characters belong together Exclamation Smile

I do try very hard to stay away from writing a review that says, "Hermione would never do that," because I think that's just rude (and I admit I have done it in the past only because I'm upset over what that character did) and I try and look at the story from the author's point of view. You learn a lot that way sometimes.

Am I wrong though for thinking that Snape could be warm and cuddly in private, and not thinking of him as ugly? Or that Draco could be reformed? Or Bill listens to heavy metal? I don't think so. If that's what we want to to think I believe that's ok in fanfiction.

Ces
View user's profile Send private message
Razzberry
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:13 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82
I still do not understand how you have read a half million words of a Snape/OFC story while ignoring the OFC. You have an amazing ability to not see what you don't want to see. Shocked *shakes head*

I think that the question of what is 'ooc' or not necessarily revolves around the things we know. For example-- we know that Snape is gaunt, with a sallow complexion and greasy hair and a hooked nose. So to describe him as tan, lithe, with silky hair and an aqualline nose is to directly oppose what JKR has said about him. We do not know if he came from a wealthy background or a very poor one, so that is up to the author's interpretation. Then we get into this grey area of 'anything that isn't specifically defined is up for grabs'.

Actually, I was reading an LJ discussion of this the other day-- why are some opinions and interpretations more valid than others, and someone made the analogy of a murder case where everyone has a theory but no one knows who did it. The people who have theories based on evidence are going to be taken more seriously than those who are pulling it out of their arses.

I'll pick on a theory that I heard so often in one Yahoo group that I reached the point where I wanted to gag over it-- the "Snape is a Gryffindor" theory. The 'evidence', as far as I could tell, was 1-- that there are five Gryffindor boys in Harry Potter's year, and we only know the names of four Gryffindor boys in the MWPP era; and 2-- because Sirius (or was it Lupin?) specified that Snape was part of a 'gang of Slytherins who nearly all became Death Eaters' and if Snape had been Slytherin it wouldn't have been necessary to specify that his gang was a 'Slytherin' gang. Personally, I didn't think the theory would hold water even if you lined it with a bucket, but okay. So the question becomes whether or not this is a valid theory (taken in the context that this was being bounced around before JKR specifically said that it is safe to assume Snape's a Slytherin.)

To me, the answer is no. It requires too much complex explanation, and I'm a big believer in Occam's razor-- if there are two possibilities, the one that requires the least explanation and fewest leaps of faith is more likely correct. In my opinion, anything that requires explaining in order to make it believable is probably edging towards OOC.

Which takes us back to the original question-- how big a deal is it?

I tend to be of the opinion that if you call a spade a spade, I don't care what you do with it. If you want to use a stapler to butter your toast, go for it, but don't try to convince me it's a butter knife, and don't be offended if I tell you that you're full of sh*t if you do try to convince me.
View user's profile Send private message

Display posts from previous:  

All times are GMT
Page 1 of 2
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic

Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum