Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - It's all about the Harry...

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azazello

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:10 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Yup, love him or loathe him, we'd none of us be here without Harry James Potter, hero and eponymous protagonist of the series.

What do other fans think of him? He took a lot of criticism from fans after the action of book five, with a loud lobby calling him a self-indulgent little teenage wanker, and lots worse.

Let me declare an interest here, and state for the record that despite having written a fairly dark Harry in a fic, I really like the boy. I think he's a pretty good hero, and when I see what some fans have to say about him, I really wonder why on earth they are reading the books? I mean, seriously, the books would be lesser without Snape, agreed, but they would still be damned entertaining reads. But take out Harry and what is there?

Most of the books are firmly from Harry's point of view, in fact, I'm trying hard to think of any action or scene that does not have him in it? I can't think of a one.

By rights Harry should be a lot more fucked up than he is. He spent his formative years locked in a cupboard, only released to do chores or go to school. If a child were truly treated like that, he'd be severely messed up. Naturally he is not, and in any case, these stories are not about child abuse - they fall into the much more victorian tradition of the lucky orphan.

Harry started to chafe against aspects of his life in OOTP, but generally, apart from shouting a lot, he was okay. He did not start bullying younger children, he did not take to self harming, or stealing from shops. He's under a huge pressure of expectation - we could figure he is destined to battle Voldemort without the insertion of the Prophecy. He's become interesting in that he's started to have expectation (like being a prefect) that he would not have had in book one, and he is having to deal with the fact that hero or not, he does not always get everything he wants. He's had to deal with grief (death of Sirius) and this may trigger delayed mourning for his own parents, which he has hitherto not experienced.

He was treated appallingly by Umbridge - that business with the lines and the pen etching his skin was blatant child cruelty.

Harry's good qualities are many. He's honest, brave and loyal. He's unselfish, and though he often suffers from a typical teenager's self-centred point of view (Ron getting the prefect badge is a case in point) after thought he generally is ready to see that what is bad news for him, might not be the worst news possible for anyone else.

He's a leader. His leadership qualities are not immediately obvious, but in fact he's a leader because he has charismatic qualities which do not easily allow analysis. Hermione, for example is more "book clever" but ultimately, Harry has ten times the natural talent - for example, he could teach his mates in the DADA HOW to cast a Patronus. I doubt if any other of them could produce a Patronus capable of repelling Dementors in the numbers he did in POA.

He's the Hero. Why dislike him? Why write fics where it is someone else who defeats Voldemort? Why be a Harry Potter fan, if you do not like Harry?

Discuss...

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

snapeaddict

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:23 pm

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

I think Harry makes a good hero BECAUSE he is not perfect. Still, I could have kicked him on several occasions while reading OoP. Smile

His actions are very comprehensible given his history and bearing in mind that he is after all a teenager. Puberty is a difficult phase even without a powerful evil wizard out to kill you or having to witness your only real "confidant" (Sirius - the closest thing to a parent Harry ever had) dying.

Comprehensible though his actions may be, I was annoyed with him in OoP. Simply because I wanted to read more Occlumency lessons with Snape. Wink

No, seriously...his beahviour there was very immature. He should not have looked into the pensieve in the first place and he should have apologised to Snape. Instead, he kept blaming Snape for each and everything. But as I said before, he is after all a teenager and one that has been badly shaken about at that. So I think he deserves my patience. Smile

It's as a friend once said when I complained that there were far too few Snape scenes in the books: "That's because it's called 'Harry Potter' and not 'Severus Snape's incredible adventures". Said friend has a point and so does azazello. You can't really be a Harry Potter fan without liking Harry.

Even though I was really annoyed with Harry in OoP, he still makes a very good hero and I think he'll be going through some changes and developments. He has had to deal with a lot. His childhood, his memories of his mother's death (PoA...the Dementor scenes), facing Voldemort again and again, losing Sirius and the disillusionment about his father (he had a hard time dealing with Snape's memories). So all in all I think he is a very good hero and I still like him.

azazello

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:28 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

I'm certainly not saying here that you must adore everything Harry is and does. I don't much care for heroes who are perfect, anyway. But I know there are some folks who freely state they HATE Harry and I have to say I do wonder what on earth they are doing in his fandom!

And I spent much of Book 5 saying, "Practice blanking your mind, you stupid little sod!" and as a mother of a teenager, I'm well conversant with what annoying little so and sos they can be.

snapeaddict

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:47 pm

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

azazello wrote:

That's exactly what I meant. He annoyed me in OoP but I still can't say I HATE Harry. He makes a very credible hero. I think the books would only be half as entertaining and gripping if he was perfect. He's someone you can actually identify with.

Snape Fan

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:59 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29

I don't dislike Harry per say, but as you two have stated, he irritated me to no end in OoTP. He was a little snot, pure and simple. He already knew it was wrong to look in a pensieve, yet he did it. I'm also confused about why he was seeing Sirius as a parent figure. I understand why he would want to, but it seems as though even for the short time they were together at Grimmauld Place, Harry spent more time with Ron and Hermione than he did with Sirius, one reason being that Sirius seemed to spend much of the book sulking. But I would think that Harry would spend every waking minute with Sirius, but he didn't. As for Harry being a good instructor...I'm reserving judgement on that. I'm sure I could stand up and tell anyone how to conjure a Patronus, whether I could do it or not. I think JKR wants him to be seen as a good DADA instructor, but he is still a child and has many things to learn. Yes the books are about Harry and not Snape Mad

but overall I'm not finding him a very likeable character. He does disregard the rules, he gets away with things other students wouldn't get away with, he gets on the quidditch team even though he's a first year (and I think there's a reason there had never been one mentioned) he will probably get into advanced potions because of who he is and not because he earned his way in like other students have to.

Fionnait NíPheadar

Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:30 pm

Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 13 Location: Germany

But we're all very glad that he did look into the Pensieve, aren't we? And that goes to show that we're no better then Harry... And because of that we can identify with him.

Fionnait

Diana

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:42 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I think that I'm in the minority about Harry in OOTP. I didn't have a problem with his "shouting" and such, even if JKR's cap-fest did become a little harsh on the eyes after awhile.

I was actually expecting Harry to be a bit prattish in OOTP to be perfectly honest. I knew that after GOF something was bound to snap with him. I was actually shocked that he didn't snap sooner, and more dramatically.

There really isn't any other character in the books who has suffered more than Harry, except for perhaps Snape. Snape's possible life sufferings are open for debate however, and are based mostly on speculation. One could also debate that Sirius is another character who knew great suffering, but the difference between Sirius and Snape and Harry is that the unjustices done to Sirius were done to an adult.

I personally love Harry. I think that what happens with a lot of fans is that they decide that they love Snape (a character who I love to read about, but frankly probably wouldn't be able to stand if I ever met him), and since Snape "thinks" that he hates Harry, the fan decides to hate Harry too. They claim to see things from Snape's point of view, which, quite frankly, I find extremely fascinating since we don't even have Snape's point of view in canon. We only have Harry's, and for the sake of debate, for all we know Snape could be a big fat faker on all accounts. We simply don't know.

Usually you can figure out why certain fans hate Harry by asking them which characters they do like; Snape, Draco Malfoy, Lucius Malfoy, and the Slytherins in general will usually be the answer these particular fans give.

The Harry hate I can understand from the point of view of a Draco Malfoy or Snape fan, not that I agree with it. The Draco Malfoy love I will never understand. Ever. Why do people find this annoying, racists, egotistical, whimpering little snot interesting? That is the question I really wish someone would answer.

To stay on topic, where I should be, I will just say that I love Harry. Harry Potter is the reasons that I'm reading the Harry Potter books. I love all of the other characters as well, but I probably wouldn't read these books if any of the other characters were the main character.

liquidscissors

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:51 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

I would like to feed Harry a good meal, buy him a nice outfit and then tell him to watch his capslock key.

I'm fairly ambivalent about Harry, all in all. I would prefer to have read all available material before I cast judgement. Come back to me in three years and then I'll say for sure how I feel about him.

snapeaddict

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:13 am

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

[quote="Diana"]The Draco Malfoy love I will never understand. Ever. Why do people find this annoying, racists, egotistical, whimpering little snot interesting? That is the question I really wish someone would answer. [quote]

Please excuse my being a bit off-topic here but I'll try to answer that. I'm not exactly a Draco Malfoy "fan" but you know that I'm writing a Malfoy fic.

The way I see him is that he is putting up a show and trying to be like his father. My theory on Malfoy is that at some point in the books he will have to decide to join Voldemort or help Harry. (The Sorting Hat, Dumbledore...they all keep saying over and over again that the houses will have to stick together and unity was the only thing that could make them strong enough to defeat Voldemort.) At least I sincerely hope so. I really don't want to see Draco end up the stereotype bad guy. JKR has shown some bits and pieces of Malfoy "family life" i.e. some short scenes of interaction between father and son and I'd say his father does not really treat him very well. His mother pampers him and treats him like a baby... how is he supposed to grow into anything else than the spoilt brat he is? So I sympathise with him and hope that he will notice at some point that he would be much better off and much more popular if he didn't try so hard to please his father. I mean, he doesn't seem to have any real friends. Crabbe and Goyle hardly qualify and neither does Pansy Parkinson. The rest of the Slytherins probably act as if they respect him because he's rich and his father has a lot of influence and because he keeps acting the fool ("Weasel king", "Potter stinks") to entertain and impress his fellow Slytherins... Actually he's a very sad character. That's canon Draco who really has my sympathy even though he is such a pain in the backside.

As for full fledge Draco fandom, I think we'll have to blame young Mr Felton. Smile

I'm too old for that but I think if I was somewhere between 12 and 16 I'd probably be a Felton groupie myself. Embarassed

Diana

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:28 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

Quote:

The way I see him is that he is putting up a show and trying to be like his father.

Yes, that is a nice theory. The problem though is it is just a theory. There is no basis in canon to support Draco only putting on a show for his father. He has been shown as a snide little prat with or without his father's help. If Draco were really putting on a show for his father, perhaps he would have let the guard down a bit once Daddy Crazy got shipped off to Azkaban, but he didn't. In fact, Draco was even nastier once his father got carted off to wizard prison.

snapeaddict

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:34 am

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

Of course he's not doing it consciously. But he's trying hard to be like his father, possibly to gain his acknowledgement. I believe that underneath it all he's very insecure. So I think his reaction is very comprehensible when his father (whom he idolises) is taken to Azkaban. I still think he'll change throughout the next two books or at least I hope so.

Pennfana

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:32 am

Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 216 Location: Ontario, Canada

I've got to say I'm rather fond of Harry as a character. He's had to cope with some pretty terrible things in his life, but he's somehow managed to become a fairly decent human being--so far, anyway, and I really can't see JKR turning him into a complete jerk unless she has a very good reason. He's brave and has a good sense of humour. He's resourceful (thanks in a very large part to Hermione and Ron, of course) and even fairly humble, especially considering how famous he was after the first time that Voldemort failed to kill him. He even risked his life (and right to remain in the wizarding world) to save Dudley during that Dementor attack at the beginning of OOtP. That's a pretty good résumé for a boy who's only going to be sixteen on his next birthday.

Still, some aspects of his character do irritate me, particularly in OOtP. He's lazy with his homework. Sometimes he breaks the rules just for the sake of breaking them, often putting himself and his friends into danger because he never thinks of the possible consequences of his decisions. He takes the whole "angsty-self-centredness" thing to a level that sometimes makes me want to dump a bucket of ice water over his head and shout "Get over yourself, already!" at him. Yes, it's human to have flaws and it makes him a more believable character, but even at my incredibly snobby high school I rarely saw a boy around his age who reaches the level of immaturity that Harry sometimes does. He's got a lot of growing up to do, and I think that it really shows in what we see in the canon.

_________________
Accio mind! Mr. Green

Miss Bellatrix Black

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:52 am

Joined: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Underground

On the subject of Draco Malfoy: he's a little prat with no manners to speak of, but he amuses me. Yes, amuses me, and I like that. But Snape wins on the "evil" guy side of things hands down.

Now, back on topic...

I liked Harry more in OOTP than in the other books, just because perfect heros get on my very last nerve. I liked that he finally lost his temper because if anyone deserves a good shout, it's Harry. I would have lost it years ago and become a raging anti-social maniac if I had been through what he went through. I mean, locked in a cupboard with spiders, constantly beaten up, hated, nearly murdered, parents murdered, injured, called insane, teased, always being put on the spot...the list goes on. Wouldn't you be a little cranky?

anna_kat

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:28 am

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

Diana wrote:

I think that I'm in the minority about Harry in OOTP. ...
I personally love Harry.

You are in a minority of two.

Quote:

They decide that they love Snape and since Snape "thinks" that he hates Harry, the fan decides to hate Harry too.

Absolutely. In addition they feel that Hermione must be taken down a notch or two, and who cares about these annyoing brats anyway, so long as the Great Snape appears the winner. I have read discussions where people actually said so, and complained about Rowlings concentrating on the adventures of Harry-the-Brat. I find Snape an extremely interesting character but I try not to entirely lose my perspective. I expect teachers to be an example that students can follow, not students having to set the example so that the poor, misunderstood teacher won't be forced to hate them.

Quote:

The Draco Malfoy love I will never understand.

Beats me too. It's very odd that Harry is being condemned for trying his best to cope with the shit life keeps throwing at him, whereas Draco's cowardly racism is all explained away as but it's not really his fault. It's all his father. Draco never had a chance. Draco grew up with all the privileges that were being denied Harry, and Draco uses it to bully others and to insult the less privileged. Looking at Cedric Diggory, whose father held the same bigoted views as Lucius Malfoy on pureblood superiority, and Cedric's clear stance against it, Draco's character couldn't be more obvious.

Quote:

But we're all very glad that he did look into the Pensieve, aren't we? And that goes to show that we're no better then Harry.

Most excellent point. We are in fact, far worse than Harry. We do not only want to take a peek a the thing Snape wants to keep from us, we want to watch Snape when he engages in the most intimate activities, we want to pry into his every thought and watch his every deed. We want to do it for far less noble reasons than Harry too, because Harry wanted to find out what was really going on, and what everybody was keeping from him. He had no intention to find out anything about Snape's personal life. We do.

anna_kat

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:37 am

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

Miss Bellatrix Black wrote:

I liked Harry more in OOTP than in the other books, just because perfect heros get on my very last nerve. I liked that he finally lost his temper because if anyone deserves a good shout, it's Harry. ... Wouldn't you be a little cranky?

I loved Harry in OotP. I thought he was uncommonly restrained for a boy his age and in his position.

Someone sent a dementor after him, but he was expetced to act all mature about it. He was kept a prisoner with people who loathe him, but he was supposed to act all grown up. He didn't hear from his friends, but shouldn't care about it for the sake of the greater good. He was sent to court for having defended himself, and was tried unfairly by a prejudiced, pompous idiot. He was publicly ridiculed for a year. His one supportive adult in the Wizarding World turned his back on him, without giving him a reason for it, and ordered him to let the one teacher, who hates him with a passion, into his mind. He was tortured by a particular sadistic DADA teacher. And, gasp, he got a tad annoyed. Heros don't get annoyed. They are polite, respectful, forgiving, loving and mature.

Harry Potter is not Little Lord Fountleroy. I just thought I'd mention this.

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