Sycophant Hex ~ View topic - Lucius Malfoy

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< Personae ~ Lucius Malfoy - theories and discussion

RachelW

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:29 am

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

Rowling certainly has a tendancy to throw some real curve balls our direction, and does well with misdirection and tossing one clue out there, while something else is subtle and doesn't make sense until after the fact. Considering this, I've been examining Lucius Malfoy in a different light lately.

So, let's start with what we know.

He's a Death Eater.

He's familiar with Severus Snape, and the two seem to be friends with a long history.

Up until the bungled mess in the Ministry of Magic, he was a farily well-respected, though feared and loathed by some, member of the Wizarding Community.

He put Voldemort's diary in Ginny's cauldron -- now...this was almost 99% sure to be on purpose. But, did he do this simply to create a problem at the school and get Dumbledore out of there so he could hopefully step in...or did he do this because he wanted Voldemort back? (I don't think he did want him back).

He was amongst the Death Eaters at the quidditch world cup, but then he ran when a 'loyal' death eater cast the dark mark.

Why did he run?

Voldemort later called him 'my slippery friend' during his 'bad guy spills beans before killing good guy' cliche'd speech at his re-birthing party and cut him down for not coming to his rescue like a few of his 'loyal' followers did.

In the Ministry of Magic, he led the attack against Harry Potter...but not for long, he lost control of the situation quickly to Bellatrix. He never used an Unforgivable while the other Death Eaters were tossing Crucio and Avada Kedavera right and left.

He did have a very good oppourtunity to try to use Imperio on Harry to get him to give over the prophecy, but didn't. There were also a number of times he was about to cast a spell, but was knocked back, someone stepped in the line of fire...something...we don't know what spells he was going to use.

Now, I'm not suggesting he's a hero in disguise. No, he's a slippery, wealthy, bigoted arrogant man who put children in danger with the diary incident.

My theory is that there is a sub-group of Death Eaters who hold the political/social ideals that Voldemort espoused...but that are actually trying to overthrow Voldemort (maybe they got into the cool Death Eater club, and then realised the club president is just nuts!) If this might exist, would Snape also have a connection with this sub-group...that is, if he's actually spying on Voldemort by posing as a loyal Death Eater?

But, I've got this growing feeling there's something more there, and that Rowling is sitting at her computer grinning gleefully that people haven't noticed something important about him all the while focusing on the distractions she's put out there. Anyone else get this feeling? Or am I trying to peice together too much unrelated information and coming up with totally wild theories now?

liquidscissors

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:04 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Quote:

He was amongst the Death Eaters at the quidditch world cup, but then he ran when a 'loyal' death eater cast the dark mark.

Why did he run?

Because no matter how much you love your master, you don't want to be caught under the veritable shitstorm that casting the Dark Mark in a public area would bring. Doubly so if you've got a bit of money (the Malfoys are such a new money family) and like to imagine that you've got a bit of sway in wizarding politics.

Nothing to do with dubious loyalty - you just wouldn't want your name in the paper.

Razzberry

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:04 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

Quote:

My theory is that there is a sub-group of Death Eaters who hold the political/social ideals that Voldemort espoused...but that are actually trying to overthrow Voldemort (maybe they got into the cool Death Eater club, and then realised the club president is just nuts!)

The Knights Walpurgis.

HPL wrote:

The Death Eaters have been around in the Wizarding World for some years. Originally, they bore the name 'the Knights of Walpurgis'

I think that's a very likely synopsis. There was a group of Purebloods who tortured and sported with Muggles and Muggleborns, and perhaps in the 1970s, it seemed that Voldemort was a great leader for this group. It quickly became apparent, though, that Voldemort wasn't interested in the political and social gains of purifying the Wizarding world blood-- he was interested in gaining power for himself.

I know it's been pointed out ad nauseam, but I'll do it again-- there's a strong parallel between Voldemort and Hitler, even with regards to their hypocrisy (Hitler was a short, dark man who was promoting the supremacy of tall, blond-haired, blue eyed people and Voldemort is a halfblood who is promoting the supremacy of Purebloods?) Both were political masters who saw the undercurrents of society and urged on the disrest that was already there, riding the discontent to power.

In Germany in the 1930s and 40s, it would have been economic disaster, distrust in a government that appeared to have sold them out in WWI and seeds of antisemitism that already existed. In the wizarding world, there was a new Headmaster (in PoA, Lupin says that there didn't appear to be any hope he'd be allowed to attend Hogwarts since he was a werewolf, but then Dumbledore became Headmaster. This implies that Dumbledore was not Headmaster when he was born or bitten, but became Headmaster at some point after. Incidentally, I've also recently begun to question whether or not Lupin might be older than Snape, James, Sirius, etc... There's no real reference to age in the books, only to when they started school. We know Lupin was in the same year as Snape and the other Marauders, but is there a possibility that he started school late? That he was perhaps 12 or 13 when Dumbledore became Headmaster and allowed him. All of which is entirely irrelevant to Voldemort and Lucius, but an interesting question in my mind.)

Anyway, back to what I was saying. I think it's a safe assumption that Dumbledore became Headmaster no later than 1970 (if you accept Mugglenet's timeline which puts Snape and MWPP born in 1960-ish, they would have started Hogwarts in 1970, and Dumbledore was Headmaster when Lupin was admitted, which, regardless of his age, would have been at the same time as the others) and no earlier than 1960 (since Dumbledore 'became' Headmaster at some point after Lupin was bitten.) And Dumbledore, by all accounts, has some very liberal policies with regards to whom he admits to Hogwarts, which I can certainly see causing problems. I would liken it to desegregation, which, by all accounts, was a nightmare for everyone involved while it was happening (which is not to suggest I think it was wrong).

Also, in the opening scenes of PS/SS, Dumbledore tells Minerva that they've had precious little to celebrate in the last eleven or twelve years (sorry, my book is packed away or I'd get the exact quote). THAT suggests that Voldemort really began his rise to power around 1970. Coincidence that Dumbledore became Headmaster and Voldemort rose to power at roughly the same time? I think not.

By the late 70s, though, and certainly by 1980, it would be obvious to everyone in the DE circles that Voldemort has since stopped caring about Purity of Blood, but is out to save his own skin, gain personal power and live forever.

Back to Lucius. I see Lucius as being very much a bigot and I could easily see him being part of a group that would aim to 'purify the blood'. I have a very difficult time seeing him taking orders from anyone else, particularly not when the someone else is just someone else out to gain power. I'd imagine that by the time Lucius realized what Voldemort's true colors were (ie, being out for personal gain rather than societal cleansing) he would have wanted out, but as Sirius said, you don't just walk away from being a Death Eater. I think Lucius would have been relieved when Voldie seemed to have died; it would have been a much coveted second chance.

Then, at the QWC, we see him and other Death Eaters engaged in the Muggle sport, which would have been more in line with the Knights than the Death Eaters.

So, in summary, I think you're spot on with the idea that there's a separate group and that Lucius' alliance runs more with it than with Voldemort. Voldemort, however, rules by means of fear, so it isn't like he's going to walk up to him and say 'You know, mate, I'm just not in line with your methods anymore. I'm not seeing how we're securing the Wizarding World for Purebloods. So, I'm gonna skedaddle. That's okay, isn't it?'

Jen

Snape Fan

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:08 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29

Dobby knew the Chamber of Secrets was going to be opened. That information had to come from Lucius, which is why I think he put the book in Ginny's cauldron. He was the reason for that. Maybe Tom talked to him through the diary.

I don't know about him and Snape being close. I can see Snape just humoring Draco into thinking that he's a favorite because he knows Lucius doubts his loyalities. I think there has to be some contact between them since Snape is Head of Slytherin, but I don't know if it goes further.

And why dirty his hands when there are others, like Bella to do it? I think he is still presenting one face to the world while still backing Voldemort.

Diana

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:13 am

Head Moderator Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 116

I've always thought of Lucius as being a hands off kind of guy when it comes to most of the more nasty aspects of being a Death Eater. From what we have seen of Lucius's actions, particularly in OTP, he appears to be the money behind the operation.

I do think that Lucius likes to "play" so to speak. Muggle sport and such seem like something he would be interested in. I think that the real nasty actions that occur within the Death Eaters would more than likely fall to the others more like Bellatrix.

As for Lucius and the others blindly following Voldemort, I would have to agree to an extent. I was under the impression, from reading the Department of Mysteries scenes in particular, that his Death Eaters may not be truly aware of his past. Bellatrix went ballistic when it was pointed out to her that Voldemort is only a Half-blood. I wouldn't be suprised if Lucius already knew this seeing as he didn't go to Azkaban the first time around, I can see him knowing now if he didn't before, but all of those condemned to Azkaban could more than likely be clueless.

azazello

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

He's a racist and a snob.

What else is there?

He's not described as hot in the books, and the tendency for fandom to find him such is because they conflate his character with Jason Isaacs in the movies.

There is nothing hot about racism and snobbery.

And I for one am rooting for this appalling character to get his deserved comeuppance in book 6 or 7. People should remember his charming ways with corruption, and the fact that his little stunt with the diary nearly got half the students, and especially Ginny Weasley killed.

And if anyone can find anything remotely redeemable in the way he treated Dobby, do pray tell.

Let's give honourable mention to the DE behaviour with that unfortunate Muggle family at the Quidditch World Cup, shall we? And the fact that he's a lickspittle turncoat who will adopt any side and has no loyalty to anyone but himself.

He's a shit hopefully riding for a fall. He has nothing in his background to excuse his behaviour - he's probably had a silver spoon in his mouth all his life. He doesn't do a hand's turn - he clearly inherited his wealth.

Nope, that's canon Lucius. Not nice, and certainly not in the least attractive, or sexy.

Kids, racism is NEVER hot.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

liquidscissors

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:45 am

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

Old money/new money. Discuss.

I always picked Narcissa as providing established money, while Lucius smacks of being the son of a self-made man. No idea of the value of money, apart from knowing that he has a lot of it and likes you to know it.

RachelW

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:30 pm

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

azazello wrote:

He's a racist and a snob.

What else is there?

There is nothing hot about racism and snobbery.

I wasn't suggesting there was something very good to him, or that racism and snobbery were hot. It's just that I have the feeling there's more going on with him behind the scenes than what we've seen. He's dispicible, and the only thing that might redeem him is a good, full obliviate! Wink

Fanon Lucius is sexy because of Isaacs, and that's because Isaacs worked hard to bring a lot more to his charachter than the director had in mind (really, he saw what they wanted to dress him in and nixed it right there and then took the wardrobe people to task). There's not much in his description in canon beyond pointy face, paleness, and light blond hair. That could come out to an unatractive look in some cases too.

RachelW

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:36 pm

Joined: 15 Dec 2004 Posts: 64 Location: The Republic of Texas

liquidscissors wrote:

I would wonder about that based on the Black family house. It's in a rather decrepit neighborhood (though may have been nice several decades back), and it's not described as a place that is very expensive...it's large enough for the Order to meet in, but aside from being large, it's not very nice. So, I'm not convinced of the Black family having much money...I tend to think they had it at one time but have lost it over the years slowly and are hanging onto the tendrils of their former riches as a point of being pure blooded.

12 Grimmauld place isn't exactly what I see as 'old money' having. Just my thoughts. It seems like a middle-class type abode...but that may be based on my American ideas of class and homes...I'm not very familiar with what is typical of middle class or wealthy people in the UK on home size, though from what I see of the British shows that play here it seems that things are generally smaller.

anna_kat

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:13 pm

Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 33

RachelW wrote:

12 Grimmauld place isn't exactly what I see as 'old money' having.

But I do. The Blacks are clearly a very ancient family. The Muggle neighbourhood is decrepit as are all Muggle neighbourhoods that conceal an entrance to the Wizarding World. There is nothing middle class about the Black's house, family tree and family crest. Also, social class and money are not the same. No way a snob like Lucius Malfoy would have married Narcissa Black, if he didn't consider the Blacks at least his peers.

azazello wrote:

He's a racist and a snob

And that is all there is to him. He is not a redeemable character. Draco might be, being still young enough to learn, though I won't hold my breath. Lucius is the spitting image of much of the European landed gentry before WW II: supremely convinced of their supremacy.

I have no doubt that Lucius and others of his kind believe(d) they could use Voldemort for their own ends. Let Voldemort deal with the Muggles, put the Muggle-borns into their proper place as the uneducated work force, re-establish purebloods as the only true wizards, undoubtedly accompanied by the re-introduction of ancient rituals and traditions, but then, get rid of the dark lord.

Deatheaters have been around much longer than Voldemort. JKR said in an interview that on very specific occasions half-bloods were invited to become Deatheaters. So, at one point Voldemort was either invited to join them, despite being a half-blood, or he took over because of his superior magical force. Probably after his many transformation that made him unrecognisable as Tom Riddle. It doesn't sound far fetched to me that Lucius invited him in.

Lucius does not strike me as a man who joins a group and then plays by the rules. He would want to control it. Lucius challenges Dumbledore and does not stand in awe of him, like Snape. He does not fear Dumbledore either, unlike Voldemort. It's not because of Lucius' own magical power or his money. His sense of entitlement comes from being pureblood. That is what makes using the child of a 'blood traitor' to kill Muggle-born children perfectly acceptable to him. Lucius has no conscience. That is his defining characteristic.

He is fit only for dark fics.

snapeaddict

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:13 pm

Joined: 25 Dec 2004 Posts: 48

Like Razberry I think that there are strong parallels between Hitler and Voldemort. The mentioned hypocrisy (proclaiming an ideal while they themselves do not fit it).

Voldemort is a racist as are most of his followers. Some of them are just turncoats who always try to be on the side of the winners and do not really care about "politics". A prominent example would be Pettigrew. I am not convinced that Pettigrew actually cares about the purity of blood, he would just like to be powerful and important.

Malfoy is a snob and a racist (which is definitely NOT hot, I grant azazello as much) and he is a powerplayer. His only loyalties are to himself, so the way I see him is that he knows how to charm and persuade people and he has money, which some people may find just as convincing. He has a talent for talking or buying himself out of trouble and he will always turn to the side that is holding the upper hand. An opportunist. At the same time he will always have some sort of Plan B in case he placed his bets on the wrong team. I don't think he is the "deep down he's good" character. He's selfish, arrogant and opportunistic.

The other question that was being asked here was whether he was or was not hot. I think that is no black or white, yes or no question. Because what is hot and what not can only be defined by the respective person who is attracted or repelled.

Sick as it may be but some women even swooned when they heard Hitler speak at public gatherings. There are so many examples of women loving men we can only think of as "monsters". Think of Charles Manson and his "Family". Or the mass-murderer-turned-author Jack Unterweger from Austria. He was hyped and adulated by Austria's jetset, especially women. There does seem to be a strange fascination with "evil".

Generally speaking, I think that there is a "dark" side to most of us and sometimes we are strangely infatuated with things or people our conscious self condemns. I'm starting to sound a little like Freud here but you know what I mean. Take voyeurism. Why are the newspapers full of gruesome, detailed pictures whenever something happens? Why do people like reading stories about serial killers? It is appalling and fascinating at the same time. Why is Hannibal Lecter such a popular character? I don't think anyone would want to become better acquainted with a real life equivalent of this man...

If people indulge in their darker sides in the context of fiction only (books, films, role plays...whatever) I think is much better than if they took them into their real life. I'd much rather be surrounded by people who fancy the pants off of a fictional character like Malfoy, or even Tom Riddle/Voldemort than people who fancy real life bad guys. After all it's fiction and fiction is about phantasies and imagination.

Finding a character like Lucius Malfoy alluring has absolutely nothing to do with excusing racism or even finding racism attractive. It is more the strange fascination with the "bad guy", the domineering, powerful, mysterious...whatever. Project that onto Malfoy, then add a bit of Jason Isaacs and this is what you get: Lucius Malfoy is a hottie.

I believe that finding Malfoy hot is absolutely harmless and Malfoy fics play around with certain phantasies. I am currently writing one myself and I can assure you that I am neither a snob (poor as a church mouse would be much closer to the truth) nor am I a racist (quite the contrary - a firm believer in diversity and freedom of choices) nor a total nutcase (though some may think so). I just like to play around with the "bad guys"...that is, however, limited to fiction. In real life I would hate Malfoy and would probably find him anything but hot.

So if I were a canon character and the Potterverse was my "real life" I'd agree...Lucius Malfoy is absolutely detestable.

Snape Fan

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:01 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29

I can't stand Malfoy in the books and I agree that he is the worst possible snob and racist. It will be interesting to see more of Narcissa to see if she is like her husband. We already know how her sister is so I think we have a clue about that.

Malfoy's attitude almost makes me wonder what he has hidden in his closet.

As much as I detest him in the books, I do enjoy reading about him in fanfics though. Which is the fun of all this - you can take a detestable character such as Malfoy and almost make him comical, or have him a spy for the Order, or any number of things. Casting in the movies has a lot to do with how Malfoy is written sometimes I think. I found movie Malfoy very sexy, not for what he said, but for how he looked - shallow I know! - the same way I find movie Sirius sexy but in the books I didn't shed a tear when he died. I feel he deserved what he got and I don't even really enjoy reading about him in fanfiction most times! But in the movie he was yummy!

I can't wait for HBP to come out to see just where Malfoy is now and if he is still welcome in the wizarding community.

phoenix

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:39 am

Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 54 Location: California

Coming into this as late as I have, most of what I feel has already been said.

I think Lucius' non-use of the Unforgiveables and running when the Dark Mark was displayed is purely selfish. Even though he seemed to have a powerful position in Voldemort's first run, he managed to stay out of Azkaban. Obviously he somehow managed to keep his hands clean and still look loyal.

He may have some of his own aspirations of power. I think this because you hear about him spending all kinds of time at the Ministry and the fact that he was able to bully the Board of Governors.

He is smooth and slimy, in my opinion, and these are some of his big survival skills.

I can only assume that by giving the diary to Ginny he wanted to fascilitate Voldemort's return. While the Weasley's are a pureblood family, he considers them a "disgrace to the name of wizard" and I'm sure would shed no tear, just as the attacks on Muggle-born probably didn't bother him. He's a bigotted, racist cad, but I think that exploring his motivations can be a lot of fun. I also think he is most definitely not redeemable.

Ah, shoot, I think I've lost the original train of the thread. I think I answered the original question, but I'm not sure.

Snape Fan

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:58 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 29

I'm honestly surprised Voldemort didn't punish Lucius for being a coward. Didn't he stay out of prison by saying he was under Imperio?

Wouldn't Voldemort find that the very essence of cowardice and consider him a traitor?

Zia

Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:40 pm

Joined: 29 Apr 2005 Posts: 19 Location: Den Haag

[quote="RachelW"
He did have a very good oppourtunity to try to use Imperio on Harry to get him to give over the prophecy, but didn't. [/quote]

Well, he had seen the great success his master had made of using imperio on Harry the year before. Presumably he is les powerfull than his master, because he does not strike me as the type who will forego a power coup if it were otherwise. So he had an excellent idea how much good his imperio would do.

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