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< The Library ~ Shrieking Shack incident |
| maryh |
 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:45 pm |
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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I've been working through some ideas about Snape, and his interactions with the Marauders, and I've found I cannot believe he didn't know Lupin was a werewolf well before the incident (I mean a couple of years at least). What he didn't know was that James, Sirius, and Peter were animagi.
Why do I think this? Snape's smart, and the Marauders have been picking on him. I think this would lead him to make a hobby of keeping track of the quartet. And lo and behold, Lupin's sick a lot. Well everyone knows that, but waddaya know, it's always right after the full moon. Sev puts two and two together, and tells Dumbledore, who swears him to silence. Maybe he even tells Snape about the Shrieking Shack arrangement to convince him that the students are in fact being kept safe.
Fast forward to the Shrieking Shack incident. Sirius gets Snape to follow them under the Whomping Willow. It's full moon, and Snape doesn't know they're animagi, so he thinks that true to Gryffindor form, they're risking a deadly encounter with a werewolf. I think Snape followed Sirius et al because he thought he was going to save them from a werewolf, exactly the same reason he went after Harry, Hermione and Ron in PoA when he noticed Lupin hadn't taken his Wolfsbane. One thing we know for sure, Snape won't let hating someone get in the way of saving his life.
When James drags Snape out of there, he thinks he's saving Snape's life, but I think it is more probable that he saved Lupin's life. I think when Snape went down that tunnel, he'd already done some thinking a long time ago about what he'd do if faced with a werewolf in wolf form. I don't think Snape owes James a life-debt at all. Is there some kind of debt you owe when someone saves you from killing someone? |
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| mouseII |
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:41 pm |
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Joined: 05 May 2005
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Really interesting thoughts, Maryh; it does seem a bit odd that Snape, who was so into the Dark Arts, would not spot a werewolf. From the hints in HBP, it's clear that he was an extremely bright boy.
It has always seemed a bit odd to me that Snape told the students that Lupin was a werewolf at the end of book three. When I read your post, the thing that suddenly wandered through my mind was, if Dumbledore had sworn Snape to secrecy when Snape was a boy - or perhaps bribed him somehow - might Snape have been wilfully breaking that promise in book three when he told the Slytherins about Lupin's condition? And did he do it not as a way to hurt Lupin, but as a way to punish Dumbledore for thwarting him in getting back at Sirius Black (because I can't believe Snape wouldn't figure out that Dumbledore had orchestrated the escape)? |
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| maryh |
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:35 am |
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Actually, I've been thinking that it makes perfect sense for Snape to reveal Lupin at the end of PoA. Lupin did, in fact, fail to keep himself safe from the students. I can see any promises Snape made to Dumbledore being predicated on Lupin always taking the necessary precautions.
Just as Snape won't let the fact he hates someone prevent him from saving that person's life, I don't see him feeling guilty about enjoying doing the "right thing" when it hurts someone he doesn't like / hates.
For the record, while I think Snape is the most interesting character, I actually like Lupin the best.
And yet, I think what Lupin did at the end of PoA was deserving of extreme measures, possibly even to the extent of "outing" him as a werewolf. He did forget to take his potion, and he did endanger the entire student body of Hogwarts, not to mention the adults as well. Understandable, under the circumstances, but a werewolf can't make that kind of mistake. Ever. |
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| azazello |
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:35 pm |
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Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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Location: Northern UK
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Yes, but Snape was not born in the Magical world. He's a half-blood. He might not have made the connection.
And please remember, while Snape's very good at some things, he's not intellectually the be all and end all of cleverness in the canon. He'd likely not know Lupin was a werewolf, because he's simply never imagine there was a werewolf attending the school with the blessing of the Headmaster. |
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| maryh |
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:21 pm |
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Quote: azazello: Yes, but Snape was not born in the Magical world. He's a half-blood. He might not have made the connection.
That opens a whole can of worms about what a "half-blood" is, and what it implies. Pureblood and muggle-born are obvious, and JKR has defined half-blood as someone with a Muggle parent or grandparent. But that doesn't begin to cover all the possibilities. For example, if half-bloods with one one grandparent have children, what is their blood-status? They're not pureblood, not muggle-born, and the closest Muggle relationship is great-grandparent. It's not hard to imagine witches and wizards who are neither pure-blood nor muggle-born, but have always grown up in the Magical world.
Then we have Snape. I don't remember if this is explicitly covered in canon, but I think it would be a fair assumption that the Princes were not pure-blood. Their name never comes up in the Black Family Tapestry, or any other pure-blood reference. I think it likely that the Princes are a common "half-blood" family, if I can use that term to refer to someone who is neither pureblood, nor muggle born. Interestingly, that makes Snape probably very close to a muggle-born in status in Slytherin, I would guess.
Still, Snape's blood-status doesn't give us a clear idea of his relationship to the Magical world. Purebloods and muggleborns have a clear relationship to the Magical world, but for people with other blood-status, the relationship can be all over the map. You could imagine half-bloods, in JKR's strict sense, being raised in the magical world by the magical parent, in the mundane world by the mundane parent, or by both parents in either or both world. In the case of Harry himself, if all this Lord Voldemort stuff hadn't happened, it seems quite likely that he would have been raised in the Magical world from the start by James and Lily.
Quote: azazello: And please remember, while Snape's very good at some things, he's not intellectually the be all and end all of cleverness in the canon. He'd likely not know Lupin was a werewolf, because he's simply never imagine there was a werewolf attending the school with the blessing of the Headmaster.
I do agree that Snape is not good at everything. He has two clear areas of expertise: Potions, and Charms (if you consider hexes, jinxes and curses to be examples of Charms with a negative effect). And I do agree that people tend not to see what they don't expect to see, or what they think is highly unlikely (I'm well know for that myself, among my family and friends. 'What do mean, you didn't see the balloons all over your supervisor's office?').
However, Snape has very good motivation to be paying attention to the Marauders, including Lupin, and quite a bit of time to make the connection, during which quite a bit of evidence would accumulate to link Lupin's illness to the full moon. And once he made that connection, I think he would be forced to consider the possibility of a werewolf, although I am sure he would first consider any other illness or condition he knew about that was related to the lunar cycle.
By the way, I did like your fic about the Penseive scene that appears to show Tobias yelling at Eileen, while Severus cries in the corner. I also agree that one incident does not an abusive childhood make. |
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| mouseII |
| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:32 pm |
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I think JKR has indicated (and I'd have to do some hunting to find the sources again) that "pure-blood" isn't necessarily really pure. The pure-blood families just ignore the bits of their heritage that they don't like, as when Ma Black zapped people off her family tapestry.
Also, has JKR said that a Muggle grandparent makes a person a half-blood? I was under the impression that while Harry might not be considered to be a pure-blood, he is considered (even by the terms of the Death Eaters) a real wizard, because both his parents were magical. This is in spite of Lily being Muggleborn. |
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| LadyWhitehart |
| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:13 pm |
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Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Personally, I think he was completely unaware that one of his classmates was a werewolf. Since Dark creatures is the topic for third year DADA, one would think SOMEONE would have figured it out. But then that leads to the point, if Snape had figured out the Lupin was a werewolf, why would he be stupid enough to walk into Black's trap in the first place? Was he so dead-set on getting them expelled that he didn't realize it was a full moon? One would think his sense of self-preservation would have prevented him from going if he had known about Lupin's condition. |
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| maryh |
| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:00 pm |
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Quote: Lady Whitehart: ... if Snape had figured out the Lupin was a werewolf, why would he be stupid enough to walk into Black's trap in the first place?
I think you may have missed part of what I posted at the beginning of this topic.
If Snape knew Lupin was a werewolf, then he wouldn't be following the Marauders to get them expelled. He would have been trying to save them. Since Snape didn't know the Gryffindors were animagi, he would have thought that they were in danger from Lupin. And he would definitely have believed the Gryffindors were foolhardy enough to risk an encounter with a werewolf close to transformation. Heck, I'd believe it.
I think that whenever he found out Lupin was a werewolf, he would have determined what he would do if faced with a transformed werewolf. When he followed Sirius et al, he would have gone in knowing what he would do if Lupin had already transformed. But being a calculating Slytherin and not a reckless Gryffindor, Snape must have felt he did not have time to tell DD or someone on staff.
So why would Snape want to save the lives of people he hates? Well, he does it throughout the books. He doesn't let hate get in the way of doing what he thinks is important.
This leads to an interesting situation where James would have thought he was saving Snape's life, and Snape would have thought he was saving James' life. |
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