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Two Methyloctane

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:28 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

There's been a lot of speculation on the Avada Kedavra Snape cast on Dumbledore, theorizing the cause of the hate and reulsion in Snape's eyes, and it brought me to one thought:

Do you need to have hate for the person you are killing, or just hate itself?

For example: Vodemort killed Frank Bryce quite easily. Did Voldemort hate Frank Bryce because he was his grandparents groundkeeper, or is it just the hate he has for nearly everything that allows him to kill so easily? I'm guessing it's just hatred that allows someone to kill, not necessarily hatred for the person you're killing.

So, as this applies to Snape, maybe the hatred in his eyes came from his hate of PPWM, Harry, and possibly himself and Voldemort. Not his hatred of Dumbledore, which is the conclusion many people came to.

Any thoughts?

Lariff

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:56 pm

Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 36 Location: Calgary

It could have been hatred for the situation he was in.

_________________
"I trust Severus Snape completely"

Delirium

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:00 pm

Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 34 Location: New York

Lariff, that's how I chose to take it. Hatred, though, even for Dumbledore for the position Snape was in. Or he could just be a nasty piece of work Death Eater... Wink

Pace

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:05 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Cologne (Germany)

This is something I've been pondering over ever since Bellatrix' taunts at the Department of Mysteries. She said you'd have to really mean to cause pain to be able to cast the Cruciatus Curse, however I did have the feeling that Harry was quite ready to cause her real harm; yet the spell didn't work.

I conclude from this that the casting of an Unforgivable is similar to the summoning of a patronus: the sentiment required has to be strong enough, else you won't succeed. Thus I don't think that the hate on Severus' face was in any way connected to Dumbledore - it was a necessity, a sentiment he had to raise in himself to be able to cast that spell. I also wonder if Harry would have actually been able to cast the Cruciatus on Snape, even if he hadn't deflected the spells (but that's just a thought).

In short: I agree with your theory, Two Methyloctane. Embarassed

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If it's not chocolate I'm not interested.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:56 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Yeah, the thing with Bellatrix is what got me thinking, too. I agree with your comparison to a Patronus: it requires a great deal of emotion to make it work.

ellerobbie

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:10 pm

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 5

This is slightly off-topic for this thread but I didn't want to start a new one (and it is my own - well, not even a theory at this point - on the subject of Snape killing Dumbledore and the intent behind it - either way, I need to hear if this even sounds somewhat realistic).

First off, I don't have the earlier books with me, so this is all based off of what I remember. And, I truly believe Snape is not a loyal Death Eater and am trying to find as many different angles as possible to argue that. Perhaps it's pathetic ... I just, after the Remus/Tonks revelation (which came out of nowhere other than pairing their names together four times), I truly do believe that perhaps how she words things can be essential.

So ...

From what I remember from previous books, Avada Kedavra was instantly fatal. Person A cast it, Person B falls down dead (or, as in GoF, a spider). But here's what happened with Dumbledore:

Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
"Avada Kedavra!"
A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight.

Dumbledore gets knocked backwards when the killing curse hits him (and quite spectacularly, I might add) - which seems odd if I am right and every other time we've seen this, people just fall down dead. But more than that, Harry cannot react - yet he says later that he knew Dumbledore was dead because the freezing charm lifted. Now granted, Rowling does not specific if he cannot scream before or after the green light hits Dumbledore (and it did take him a moment for the shock to wear off before he did move) ... but since Rowling lists the curse hitting Dumbledore, then Harry not being able to scream ... it just seemed odd to me.

Anyway, onto my question: What happens if someone casts an 'incorrect' killing curse? Is it an all or nothing or could someone be blasted off their feet, knocked unconscious at some level in between completely ineffective and effective?

Let's say yes, there are different levels of the killing curse. Could this mean that Snape didn't directly kill Dumbledore (but instead knocked him off the tower to his death - which still makes him responsible but in a different light)?

Like I said, this is all completely out of left field but ... the end of the book just bothers me because something doesn't add up and the only thing I keep coming back to is Snape. Not that I think he's a nice person or even the hero in disguise - just that it makes no sense for Rowling to have built up a nasty character as a good guy only to have it not be the case. Because, honestly, if she wanted someone to betray the light, it would have been much more powerful (for me at least) if it had been someone like Lupin or Hagrid (or anyone else we were thoroughly convinced was GOOD).

Cheers,
Elle

Idril

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:18 am

Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 10 Location: Australia

My opinion is that when Snape is casting the Avada, His expression of pure and utter hatred is not directed towards Dumbledore, but towards HIMSELF.

In book 4, Crouch Jr. Kills a spider with Avada Kedavra. Now, not even Ron could hate spiders that much. The hatred had to have come from somewhere else.

I think that to be able to cast Avada Kedavra, you need a strong feeling of hatred, not necessarily hatred for your victim. But you DO need to feel hatred.

zooty

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:16 am

Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 9

I want to start this off with a disclaimer, I am not a Snape apologist, I think he is a mean, petty man. He has set himself up in a place where no matter who wins, he is on the winning side, and he isn't happy to see that change. So on to my theory.

When I finished reading the Dumbledore death scene, I thought to myself, what the heck was that? I wasn't surprised that Snape cast the killing curse (I expected that after cap 2), but it didn't look like the Avada Kedavra effect, it looked more like Wingardiam Leviosa. I mean he floated below the Dark Mark. So I pulled out GoF, and checked, Cedric- AK, green light, thud. Frank- AK, green light, thud. Dumbledore was basically lifted up and thrown over the battlements. Why would JKR do that? I have been thinking alot about this and have 2 basic reasons, either she wanted a climatic death scene or it is a plot device. Climatic death scene- possible, a little out of character for her, after the poor send away she gave Sirius. Plot device- Why? The only idea I can come up with here is to get Dumbledore out of sight.
All of this also made me question the idea of nonverbal spells, if you are good enough at it, can you cast one spell nonverbally while saying something else?

Lets move on to the full body bind. The moment Dumbledore is hit, the spell should end. But, we have DD rising up, going over the side of the tower, Snape saying lets get out of here, grabbing Draco, other DE leave, and then Harry realizes the curse is lifted. The question is when was the curse negated? Immediately after the AK or minutes later, you can't tell from the way it was written. But if it was after AK, then this does bring up questions.

Now let's look at what DD said to Draco, just before Snape came in.

"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine."

So now you can see where I am headed with all of this. DD cannot disappear the way the Ollivander did, he is too important, he must die to disappear.

I actually have other questions on this; such as why does it take Fawkes so long to realize that DD is dead? But I thought that my conspiracy theory addled mind should take a rest. Sorry to continue the slightly off topic idea, but as a first time poster (long time lurker), I didn't want to start a new topic.

JackieJLH

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:18 am

Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 130 Location: Florida, USA

Ok, this example is a little bit silly, but...

In the first part of Spinner's End, Bellatrix kills a fox because it startles her. She is caught off guard, and maybe even a bit frightened (though I doubt she'd admit that), but I seriously doubt she HATES some unknown object making an undecipherable noise. I have a theory that maybe the Unforgivables take a certain amount of hate, but become easier with continued use. As of right now, the only ones we've seen use the Unforgivables successfully are Death Eaters, and in quite a few of those instances, there wasn't a whole lot of hate for the victim.

Maybe, once you've cast the Killing Curse enough times, it becomes a bit easier. Perhaps the hate is just a characteristic of the caster, not necessarily directed at anyone. They just hate in general.

Not to mention, I'm not 100% sure Snape didn't hate Dumbledore at that moment. Not because he's evil - I'm convinced he's not. But Dumbledore was asking him to do something he considered horrible, something he may have even considered dying himself to prevent, and I could understand him feeling a bit of hatred towards the man forcing him to do this, and still love the same man a great deal simultaneously.

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~Jackie

I once had a real life. Then I discovered Harry Potter. Then I discovered Harry Potter on the internet... *shrug* Real life is overrated anyway.

Pace

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:53 pm

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 43 Location: Cologne (Germany)

JackieJLH wrote:

Maybe, once you've cast the Killing Curse enough times, it becomes a bit easier. Perhaps the hate is just a characteristic of the caster, not necessarily directed at anyone. They just hate in general.

Sounds logical to me, especially since the Patronus seems to work the same way. The more often it is cast, the easier it becomes to dip into that strong, positive memory that enables you to do so.

_________________
If it's not chocolate I'm not interested.

snarkyroxy

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:43 pm

Joined: 09 May 2005 Posts: 7 Location: Adelaide, Australia

Zooty,

That's an awesome theory, and one that may hold some truth.

The only thing I would question is the portrait of Dumbledore that appeared in the office afterwards.

Do we know, in canon, whether it's possible to have a portrait of a currently living person? I can't recall having seen one, but that's not to say it couldn't happen. Maybe there is a spell or enchantment Dumbledore knew (and prepared in advance) to make himself appear, dead or not.

snarkyroxy

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:22 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

The one problem I have with the theory he didn't die immediately because Harry wasn't able to move until a few moments later is that a situation like that is almost guaranteed to cause shock. Even if the bind had been lifted at the moment Dumbledore died, Harry may have still been frozen in shock.

I was in a car accident three months ago. Right after it happened, I had enough presence of mind to drive my car up onto the median, but then I just turned off the car and sat there. I didn't see the damage to my car until a week later, because I was in shock and didn't get out of my car until the emergency crews showed up.

You think of really stupid stuff when you're in shock. I remember thinking of how my insurance would go up, how I'd backed up traffic quite a bit, and that I wouldn't have to worry about fixing that loose bumper of mine because it was sitting under the other vehicle.

I can see Harry forgetting about the body-bind and just not moving after it happened, but remember it when he kinda came to. So, while it's a possibility, I don't think it's terribly likely. Its a good theory though!

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

blah_blah_blah

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:44 am

Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 20

Is it possible that Harry did unfreeze right as Dumbledore died but JKR couldn't mention it right away because so much other stuff was going on and she could only write one thing at a time?

I know this leaves a lot of people's hopes bashed but I think we are grasping at straws.

Two Methyloctane

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:47 am

Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 96 Location: Calgary, Canada

Exactly. There's so much going on, and as the POV, Harry can only process so much at a time, and maybe thinking to move wasn't on top of that list, given his brain had accepted being frozen...

_________________
**In Snape We Trust**
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

luckycharms

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:00 am

Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 7

It states that what was holding Harry paralyzed after Dumbledore's death was horror and shock. I wondered myself with what he had said to Draco and the way he died if it was not staged, but the portrait threw me off. As far as we know the portrait has not talked, he was sleeping. Wouldn't it seem important to Harry to talk with him? To many what if's, and at least 2 more years to speculate (though to know she has already started the last book gives me hope!)

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