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Razzberry

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:28 am

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

Been doing some thinking lately, much of it circular, with regards to how to classify fics.

The genres listed on Occlumency, where I've done most of my posting here at SH, are: mystery/suspense; fluff; humor; general; drama; angst; action/adventure; romance; friendship; poetry; drabble; porn without plot

I think I have a handle on poetry. But the others... what constitutes these genres? I realize that there is a certain degree of subjectiveness to it, but I'm curious what people think when they see these classifications.

'Angst', for example. To me, that has a very negative connotation. I tend to think of it as wallowing in self pity and melodrama. dictionary.com defines it as 'A feeling of anxiety or apprehension often accompanied by depression.' Yet, some authors (and some reviewers) seem to view it almost synonymously with 'emotion'. So what's the difference between 'angst' and 'drama'? And what constitutes 'fluff'? How much plot is acceptable in a PWP?

My own take on these (ie, what I think when I see these genres):

mystery/suspense: I think lots of plot, probably a twisting plot, surprise endings. I have high hopes for these, and I admire anyone who can write a convincing mystery. They're either REALLY good or REALLY crappy; I've never seen a 'mediocre' mystery or suspense. There's a high potential for campy, but if its done well, it's going to be a great read.

fluff: I tend to think spoof. This always brings to mind slapstick for me, or something very unrealistic. When combined with romance, I tend to think it's gearing up for romantic comedy, and if it's combined with humor, I'm expecting parody or something truly outrageous.

humor: I expect comedy. Sit com style comedy. I'm expecting one-liners and witty remarks, and comical situations.

general: I don't know what to expect in all honesty, though in the past few weeks the term 'genfic' has entered my vocabulary as referring to a 'shipless' story. Is that what this means? Or is it a catch-all?

drama: I tend to expect lots of emotion. I don't know whether it will be a happy ending or a sad ending; I don't expect either. I do expect the author to cry at some point, and I half expect to laugh at some point. I always anticipate a more 'serious' fic from this, and I usually go in with hopes of intelligent and thought provoking.

angst: This has a very negative connotation for me. To me it sounds like something that is just swimming in 'poor, pitiful me'. I'm beginning to suspect that I'm not on the same wavelength as everyone else in terms of this. I've had a few reviews that referred to the 'angst' in my stories, and my initial reaction was sort of knee-jerk 'there's no angst to this!' I tend to think of it as needless negativity that's unsupported by plot. To me the difference between 'drama' and 'angst' is that drama has more of a plot to it. It's like the difference between romance and PWP.

action/adventure: I expect... er... action and adventure Wink

Seriously, I anticipate a plot-heavy work, though with fewer surprise elements than suspense or mystery. I often think violent.

romance: When this is the only genre, I expect something along the lines of Harlequin romance-- your classic boy-gets-girl. I expect happily ever after and a general 'aww, how romantic' attitude. When romance is combined with something else, I expect a departure from the romantic theme, but still expect to find the theme in tact.

friendship: I expect platonic relationships somewhere. Maybe it's because I love a good story about people who love each other in non-sexual ways and that's so horribly under-represented in fiction in general, but I always have high hopes for stories of friendship.

poetry: I expect poetry. Not necessarily rhyme.

drabble: Character sketches, setting sketches, mood sketches. I don't expect a 'complete' plot, more like a snapshot of something.

porn without plot: I expect lots of sex and little else. I'm always surprised to find strong plot elements, and the idea of a many-chaptered PWP boggles my mind (though I have read a few where the plot was truly incidental to the sex, which went on for 12 chapters. Amazing.)

So, my question is two-fold: one, am I missing some fantastic fics because I see 'angst' in such a negative light? And two, who am I alienating and what expectations am I incurring by classifying my fics into 'drama' categories? (And other related questions-- the angst question also applies to fluff and action.)

Tinker

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:42 pm

Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 1

I've never really thought much about this, but reading your post invited me to examine my own internal definitions, and I find they differ from yours in several areas.

Drama vs. Angst vs. Fluff: Drama, I feel, means it's going to contain dramatic situations. Dead people not really being dead, long-lost twin sisters, scenes that make you stop reading just to laugh at how shocked those poor characters must be. To me, that's drama. Angst on the other hand, is a bit more negative. I equate angst with heartbreak - mourning a loved one, betrayal, all those dark, nasty emotions. Celebrating a joyous occasion definitely isn't angst - it's much more likely to be fluff. Fluff, I believe, is stuff that gives the reader a light, happy feeling. All is right with the world, and we're just floating along, enjoying ourselves. I probably differ with you the most on this one. I don't think spoof at all, I think uneventful Weasley Christmases, and the dating-to-marriage stage of sappy, unrealistic romances. Where things are too perfect to ever actually happen, but it's fun to wish they would.

So...in my humble opinion, Angst is 'bad' emotion, fluff is 'good' emotion, and drama is shocking (to the characters, it's best if the reader sees it coming, but only a paragraph or two before).

And as for 'general' - I'd say it's simply something that doesn't fit strongly into a category. General fics incorporate elements of many categories, without having one overriding characteristic.

I'd say you're right on the button with mystery/suspense, friendship, and drabbles. Action/adventure leads me to expect more battles/duels/exploring of mysterious caves, although the plot might be fairly straightforward. And PWP...well, I do expect it to be lots of graphic sex without much plot or character development, which is why I don't read it. Smile

Hope my two cents helped give you a new spin on genres - yours certainly made me think.

azazello

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:46 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

the idea of a many-chaptered PWP boggles my mind (though I have read a few where the plot was truly incidental to the sex, which went on for 12 chapters. Amazing.)

I couldn't keep it up for that long. For that matter, neither could poor Severus. He's approximately 36 at the end of OOTP not sixteen. Unless he's using the potion I described his using in a story of mine...

Wishful thinking, really.

And in any case, as I recall, in the story, you paid for the excesses by being very sore all Sunday and Monday.

I like a well written sex scene - however, if it is not subservient to story, then I'll skip, unless it's a one shot. PWP one shots are okay, and in fact when done by good writers they can be very okay. The writing still needs to be good! I'll actually read fic that breaks my own reading rules (teacher student, for example) because a PWP detention story is not to be taken seriously, it is just for the sake of smut and is about fantasy.

Anyway, back to sex scenes. They are all right, and have their place - but gimme story! Story and good writing, my personal OTP. I want to read page turners, and do not mind about the genre - though mostly I like dramatic tales, where there are events, cliff hangers, maybe, where I cannot tell what the outcome is going to be.

When the boat brought a latest instalment of "The Old Curiosity Shop" to Baltimore docks, people were killed in the stampede to get Dickens' latest chapters. That's story, that's excitement.

Gimme a good story. Bugger the genre. And I've read many a good story (in and out of fanfic) that features no sex, I've never read a chaptered story that was all sex and was any good.

_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Whimsy

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:25 am

Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 6

Razzberry wrote:

So, my question is two-fold: one, am I missing some fantastic fics because I see 'angst' in such a negative light? And two, who am I alienating and what expectations am I incurring by classifying my fics into 'drama' categories? (And other related questions-- the angst question also applies to fluff and action.)

Well, having just spent an inordinate amount of time deciding on the classification of a couple of ficlets, I really understand your dilemma! I guess a lot of this is interpretation except for the really obvious genres eg: fluff, romance and pwp. Although, having said that, what's the difference between fluff and pwp, or fluff and romance? I put two ficlets into angst because they are unresolved emotionally which is how I see angst (rather than whingy, sad, pathetic stuff). The third ficlet I posted 2 days ago (not yet validated) is pure pwp: the resolution of the angst (well that's my opinion!)

When I read, I go on the descriptions rather than the categories - because in the end who the hell knows what people really mean when they classify a fic as: drama, angst, fluff, romance - all in the one fic?

Quote:

Quote: Razberry
the idea of a many-chaptered PWP boggles my mind (though I have read a few where the plot was truly incidental to the sex, which went on for 12 chapters. Amazing.)

Quote Azazello:
I couldn't keep it up for that long. For that matter, neither could poor Severus. He's approximately 36 at the end of OOTP not sixteen. Unless he's using the potion I described his using in a story of mine...

I'm always a bit confused when Snape is given the libido of a 16 yr old with the stamina/self control of a 30 yr old in a 5yrs post Hogwarts story (when he's in his 40's). Now, I'm a nearly 40 yr old woman and, really, that just doesn't seem right. Just my opinion, of course. But then there is the Wizard thing...

Last edited by Whimsy on Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:34 am; edited 1 time in total

Razzberry

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:33 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

I didn't mean that the sex went on continuously for what would have required twelve chapters to account for it... it was more like 'sex scene, skip a few days, more sex scene... etc I think it covered a time period of several months. And, not being big on pwp, I can't say that it was the best fic I've ever read, but it was still impressive, in the way someone can F*** something up in a way that is very impressive even if you have no appreciation for the outcome.

But, anyway. I suppose that part of the reason I asked is because I also spend entirely too much time worrying over how to classify a fic, but also because after I finished posting a recent fic that I classified as a 'drama', I was told in no uncertain terms that I should have classified it as angst because dramas should have happy endings. I disregarded the last half of that entirely, but I had a good think on the first half of the statement.

As I said, 'angst' has traditionally had a very negative connotation for me. Negative in the respect that I don't want to read it. Poor poor pitiful me and all. And, taking that with me, I do tend to avoid fics that proudly proclaim themselves as 'angst' because, to me, that has a connotation of something I simply don't want to read.

However, I love a good tear-jerker, and I love highly emotional content. I also read the summaries and such, but I admit that I'm something of a selective reader, and unless I'm bored or curious, I won't click into most stories that don't fit my criteria.

Anyway, as I said, I was just wondering what the genres mean to others out there.

azazello

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:07 pm

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Being a brit, the concept of "angst" is a bit strange to me. It's very much an imported word, and almost an imported concept, too.

To me it has rather self-indulgent connotations - a character is angsty, when they are sort of knowing about their sufferings - I always think of Hamlet when I think of angst, and I always felt when I studied that play, that he needed a good shaking.

I generally put "angst" as a category if it's all gloom. And as a subheading if there is a certain amount of gloom.

"Drama" indicates plot led, story driven work to me. Generally, my favourite stuff has "drama" as the main category. I've classified most of my non-comic stuff as "drama" because I see it as plotted story.

"Romance" - I'll generally put this as a subheading if a romantic relationship is an important feature of the story. I'd make it the main heading if I write a story that is just about the romance, and there are no other elements. Drama takes precedence in my classifications.

Humour/Parody. difficult these. I've read stuff called humour/parody with a stony face. Probably readers do the same reading my humour/parody. Humour is usually a story that's an elaborate set up for a joke (I wrote a story to show in a vulgar way, the truth we all know, that Snape is well endowed). Parody is a friendly send up of either the HP books, or other fiction, or some element or theme in fanfic. I've also seen stories written as hostile parodies of works, and I personally would not read them. Even if the story being parodied is rubbish to my mind, hostile parody is essentially unkind. I've recently seen enough unkindness in fanfic to not wish to see anything but concepts being mocked, and not individual fics. And I mean hostile parody of specific fics, not a parody of a type - I took a swipe at the MLC challenge but it was not aimed at any individual fics.

Fluff. Pure cuteness. Nothing jarring or jolting happens in a fluff story. People often make the charge of fluff against romance. But essentially, I'd say fluff has no point. I've had romantic writing called fluff (the mysoginist end of the fandom hates happy romance). I'd argue again, there's an absence of plot in fluff. Fluff stories are like a box of choccies.

Action/Adventure. Fighting, derring do. Battles, heroism. Kidnapping. That sort of thing. Boy's own stuff.

PWP. I recently took part in an interesting lj discussion on this. When forced, I could not find a PWP that really rocked my socks. My own two are outtakes from larger stories. My own personal all time favourite "Shag" story, is "Another Brick in the Wall" by A Vulgarweed (anyone who has read my fics might spot a theme when I say it depicts a passionate and sweaty encounter against the dungeon wall). However, that is part of her "Ravenous" series. It used to be on WIKTT archives, then was removed before I left. I've no idea where this story might be now. Anyway, it's PWABS (porn with a backstory), like my own stuff and not PWP proper. The classic SS/HG PWP must surely be the detention scenario. Shiv issued a challenge about this yonks ago, I never saw a great one, which was what she'd hoped to inspire.

Other genres: Songfics. Please, I'd much rather not. Poetry. Difficult, this, generally I have a fanatical and ruthless devotion to great poets. Which makes bad poetry a painful experience.

What other genres should there be?

Tragedy. Much better than angst. And more classical in intent. Though the true nature of tragedy is essentially great unhappiness that springs from a fatal act. Ie Lear's rejection of Cordelia's truth. Macbeth's ambition. Othello's believing the lies of Iago. And so on.

Missing Scene: For example, I'd love to read or write a scene where Dumbledore explains all about Sirius Black being innocent to Snape post POA. Or the scene as Snape gets told off for the "I see no difference" quip in GOF.

Character Study: A good many good fics character study in fictional form. I like fics that attempt to give added dimension to the canon characters by careful canon extrapolation.

I do not, in answer to Razzberry, believe that an unhappy ending has to be excused in anyway. Or even an "unresolved" sort of ending. An unhappy ending can be in "romance", "drama" or even "action/adventure".

Last edited by azazello on Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
_________________
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony ~ Monty Python and the Holy Grail

liquidscissors

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:48 pm

Moderator Joined: 27 Dec 2004 Posts: 164

...drama should have happy endings?
You know, I was going to say something here, but I just snorted half a cup of tea into my sinus cavity.

If the fangirls ever revolt against murky finishes with no discernable happy or sad slant (funnily enough, much like a real life ending), I'm going to be first against the wall. Viva la open endings!

Razzberry

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:54 pm

Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 82

I'm glad to know I'm not on my own little island in terms of some of these definitions then.

I agree with the genres that there 'should' be-- tragedy is certainly one I wish I could pick quite often, and character study and missing scenes/expanded scenes as well. And then there's another label that eludes me at the moment-- the types of books I pull off the shelves in book stores, 'slice of life' style, stories that are neither happy nor sad, but ring *true*. I have a general theory about life, that extremes do not exist, so when choices are 'angst or humor' or 'comedy or tragedy' or 'fluff or drama', there's a lot of 'either/or' going on.

How do you classify the story that simply follows a character or two through a year of his or her life? Most of what I write falls into this category, a very humanist approach, glorifying the highs and lows and twists and turns that life takes. I remember in high school we were told that 'comedy' and 'tragedy' referred to the endings, that a comedy was a happy ending and a tragedy was a sad ending, but that a tragedy could certainly be happy through the majority of the story and a comedy doesn't have to leave you rolling on the floor. I don't know how much I buy that (and even then, I go back to my general dislike of extremes-- most of life is neither happy nor sad, but simply *is*)

Or maybe that's the general category. I don't know.

I am glad to know that I'm not completely in left field because of my views of some of these genres.

Sakuruth

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:11 am

Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 7

azazello wrote:

My own personal all time favourite "Shag" story, is "Another Brick in the Wall" by A Vulgarweed (anyone who has read my fics might spot a theme when I say it depicts a passionate and sweaty encounter against the dungeon wall). However, that is part of her "Ravenous" series. It used to be on WIKTT archives, then was removed before I left. I've no idea where this story might be now.

Well, most of Vulgarweed's work (the series in question included) is available at Witchfics.org, but this particular gem isn't filed there. However, good news, it seems to be at Dark Sarcasm, naturally listed under 'NC-17'.

azazello

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:34 am

Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 183 Location: Northern UK

Quote:

However, good news, it seems to be at Dark Sarcasm, naturally listed under 'NC-17'.

Which takes you to the now defunct link on the WIKTT files...

Nope, still lost.

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