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<  Personae  ~  Hermione Granger

thegreatsporkwielder
Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:40 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Sep 2006 Posts: 26 Location: Leading my Spork Army to World Domination
Quote:
You assume that through years and years of friendship and shared danger Hermione still is not able to recognize true friendship?



Did I say that? Nowhere did I say that Hermione doesn't recognize true friendship. What I was saying is that since Harry and Ron take advantage of Hermione's brains so often, I think sometimes she might get doubts. That happens to me all the time. I know that people are my friends, but when they come to me for homework help every day, every once in a while, I ask myself if that's the reason they hang out with me.

Quote:
You ignore all things that are not in accordance with your idea or try to talk them away. Serieus character discussion looks at canon instead of projecting what you want to see into a character.



Everyone projects at least a little of their own view onto a character. That's why we all have different opinions. We come from different backgrounds and different worldviews, so we come at the characters from a different angle.

Yes, it's how I've read the character, but it's my view of Hermione as a character, not at a certain point. And, as I've stated many times, this is my OPINION. You don't need to call me ignorant just because my view doesn't match yours.
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LadyWhitehart
Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:19 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 193 Location: New Jersey, USA
I can see Hermione having doubts about Harry and Ron's motives from time to time, that's only human nature--17-year-old girl nature. It's normal to have a sesitive moment and doubt people you've been friends with for a while, especially if you have a secret interest in one of them. But I also think that those doubts are usually short-lived, more so with Harry than with Ron. And that's not because of anything 'shippy' just that Harry is the more sensitve of the two boys.

Quote:
Canon for that please. You assume that through years and years of friendship and shared danger Hermione still is not able to recognize true friendship? You make an awful lot of assumptions without any proof only because you want to read the character that way. You ignore all character development you have seen from her from book one to book six. You ignore all things that are not in accordance with your idea or try to talk them away. Serieus character discussion looks at canon instead of projecting what you want to see into a character.


The truth is we ALL interpret the characters based on our own personal experiences. If JKR said Hermione was insecure, that would give us a definite look into her person, but we only get to see her as Harry sees her. Serious character discussions can allow for interpretation, especially when it's a character whose POV we aren't privy to.

Has Hermione grown and changed over the course of the six books? Absolutely! But certain things like fretting over your looks, worrying about getting a date, agonizing over the idiot you like still not getting a clue are normal things for any teenager. If you make Hermione exempt from that, you might as well stamp Mary Sue on her forehead, and her character tip-toes on that fine line as it is. In some ways, as annoying as Hermione was at times, she was most human and 'normal' in HBP.


Last edited by LadyWhitehart on Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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pipedreamer
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Apr 2005 Posts: 44 Location: Newcastle, UK
I'm thinking that maybe lot of fanfic writers Sue Hermione because she is a female character we know well, probably know best. So we take one-off comments (like Lupin's "smartest witch of your age" comment) and suddenly there are stories everywhere where that's the excuse to make her into an all singing all dancing action figure. We reason: well if she's that clever, we can get her to do anything, right?

Wrong. She's a smart 17 year old with a 17 year old's insecurity about boys and herself. She's just too pragmatic to dwell on these insecurities most of the time. She's most insecure when she is around people whose opinions actually matter to her - Ron being a classic example. She blushes, feels as though she has to comment on his silly remarks that Harry never argues with but sometimes we see he privately disagrees with - take the argument Ron & Hermione had after the Yule Ball in book 4.

She is strong enough to do what she knows is right (Firebolt incident, book 3) and loyal enough to go along with plans she doesn't agree with (Ministry, book 5). So she shows great maturity in these moments. When it comes to the crunch, she is generally in the places where she can help and be useful. But an action queen she ain't. She's taken out pretty quickly and thoroughly at the Ministry even though she's pretty powerful at this point.

But in everyday life, she's a not-quite-adult teenager who is still trying to come to terms with who she is and where she's going. She's grounded but she's not the wand-toting, spell-slinging, enigma-solving superwitch with the perfect action to every problem.

We can't use Hermione's canon evidence of high intelligence as an excuse to have her do things she isn't cabable of. That's a Sue, not a Hermione.

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Pennfana
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:02 am Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 216 Location: Ontario, Canada
The probelm comes in, though, because sometimes there's such a fine line between Hermione in canon and "Hermione Sue". Is she "Hermione Sue" in a fanfic if she finds a difficult potion recipe and brews it correctly on the first try, even though she did the same thing with the Polyjuice Potion in Chamber of Secrets? Is it really out of character for her to spend a lot of time in a library and come out with unusual amounts of magical theory, if not knowledge? She may not be the all-knowing, all-powerful caricature of herself that we sometimes see in fan fiction, but she also isn't quite what one might call an average witch.

Who knows, maybe even the way she was quickly taken out of action at the Department of Mysteries taught her something about real-life combat as opposed to training exercises with the DA. We just don't know, though, as we haven't really seen her in combat since then. I don't expect her to be an expert, of course, but it doesn't seem to be like Hermione to find that she has a weakness and just let it sit, especially when it might be important.

I agree that her character needs to grow up a bit (she really irritated me several times when I read HBP, though I appreciate her point about the Potions book) and that she's not a "wand-toting, spell-slinging, enigma-solving superwitch" who can solve every problem perfectly, but I don't think that she should be completely dismissed because she isn't as perfect as she's sometimes written in fanfic.

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pipedreamer
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:43 am Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Apr 2005 Posts: 44 Location: Newcastle, UK
Of course she shouldn't be dismissed because she isn't perfect - I agree completely with you. And really, that's my point. She is sometimes written as near-perfect solely on the basis that she's incredibly intelligent, and that's a Sue. We know she manages the Polyjuice first time round, which is (I think, and correct me if I'm wrong) an OWL level potion. However, she has difficulties with the Draught of the Living Dead in HBP, and we see her getting irritated about that - of course, part of that irritation is Harry, whom she percieves to be cheating by using the Prince's book.

Point, is, she's not perfect at magic, and she does struggle sometimes. She's an excellent theorist, and is very good at turning that theory into practice.

She shouldn't be an "all-knowing, all-powerful caricature of herself" (quoting Penfanna) in fanfic, because in the books she makes mistakes and she struggles, just as the others do. Hermione simply gets further, easier, than either Harry or Ron. She is beginning to struggle in HBP, properly struggle for the first time (excluding the Time Turner, which would drive anyone nuts Very Happy), whereas she sailed through her previous courses relatively easily.

Now that she's starting to see that perhaps the "tried and tested" way of doing things isn't always what gets the best results, she's going to have to choose between Best Results or Best Practice. And that's a brilliant character to put into fanfic, precisely because Hermione has started to develop in this way. Making her a solves-all über-witch is making her a Sue.

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Pennfana
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:20 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 216 Location: Ontario, Canada
Ah, I understand now. Kind of reminds me of the last time I got into a political discussion with a good friend of mine; neither of us were able to realize that we actually agreed with each other until someone else was moved to point it out. Confused

I've got to admit, though, that I'm a bit more tolerant of Hermione Sue (very diluted and restrained, of course) in stories which take place some years after Hogwarts, though even then the Sue has to be at least believable and appropriate to the situation. If she were a real person, after all, she probably wouldn't be that insecure 17-year-old for the rest of her life. In stories where she's still at Hogwarts, though, I certainly agree that she shouldn't suddenly be gifted with wisdom beyond her years (which I've never thought she had) and the ability to effortlessly perform spells and brew potions which are beyond anything that even her teachers an do.

Incidentally, I thought it was quite interesting that you brought up the Draught of the Living Dead; I may have read it wrong, or perhaps I'm remembering another incident in HBP as it's been a couple of months since I last read it, but from Slughorn's reaction I thought that Hermione's potion had been brewed up to her usual standards by following her book, but it was the help that Harry got from Snape's old book which led him to produce exemplary results, thus overshadowing her. The incident with the antedotes, though, I consider to be a perfect example of the way she's beginning to struggle.

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pipedreamer
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:58 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Apr 2005 Posts: 44 Location: Newcastle, UK
One of the most wonderful adaptations of Hermione I have ever read is "somewhere I have never travelled...gladly beyond" by savageland, which incidentally can be found on Ashwinder. It features 17-year old Hermione in all her stubborn, I-know-better loveliness, and aslo a wonderful characterisation of Hermione in her mid-60s.

I'd happily recommend it to anyone and everyone, even those who aren't into HG/SS.

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LadyWhitehart
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:42 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 193 Location: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
The probelm comes in, though, because sometimes there's such a fine line between Hermione in canon and "Hermione Sue". Is she "Hermione Sue" in a fanfic if she finds a difficult potion recipe and brews it correctly on the first try, even though she did the same thing with the Polyjuice Potion in Chamber of Secrets? Is it really out of character for her to spend a lot of time in a library and come out with unusual amounts of magical theory, if not knowledge? She may not be the all-knowing, all-powerful caricature of herself that we sometimes see in fan fiction, but she also isn't quite what one might call an average witch.


No, it wouldn't, and that leads me to wonder if JKR realized how close Hermione was to plunging head-long into Sue-dom. (JKR already admitted to self-insertion with the character.) That would also sort of explain the huge change in her in HBP. A change that is often considered to be OOC, but in fact is really just 'normal' teenage behavior. I've seen theories about the change in her behavior, but they are a bit on the outlandish side. Don't worry you'll get to see them in a parody fic at some point.

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Vorona
Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:37 am Reply with quote
Joined: 24 Apr 2007 Posts: 8
Back to some of the original discussion...

One thing that I find really interesting about Hermione is that she really does show a surprising number of Slytherin qualities:

1. She's undoubtedly the most ambitious character of her age... in the sense of true ambition, i.e. drive to succeed. This is evidenced by her 3rd year use of the Time-Turner, plus all her extra-curricular projects (Buckbeak, Rita, S.P.E.W., the D. A., etc.) Draco wants the laurels of having achieved. Hermione is driven to achieve. Even her book-learning and intelligence seem, at least a lot of the times, to be a means to an end: her scores are important because she wants to succeed. I don't think she cares for knowledge for the sake of knowledge. I don't think she'd be content just learning all the time. She'd *do* something with all that knowledge.

2. She's secretive/has a sense of subtlety/subterfuge: Time-Turner, Lupin = werewolf, going to the ball with Krum, the D. A. and the hex and the method of announcing meetings, luring Umbridge out to the centaurs...

3. She can be very vindictive, in a very cold and calculating manner: again, Rita and Umbridge.

She's not, of course, a Slytherin, and I think there are a couple of reasons.

First, as people have mentioned, she's Muggleborn. Second, as people have also mentioned, the hat probably responds more to what they *want* to be than what they *are*. Hermione *wanted* to be in Gryffindor... perhaps not as much or as strongly as Harry didn't want to be in Slytherin, but that counts for something. And finally, despite all those traits, Hermione is still more a Gryffindor than a Slytherin (and more a Slytherin than a Ravenclaw, despite her brains). First, to be that bluntly and loudly a know-it-all does take a certain amount of courage. A Ravenclaw likely wouldn't draw that much attention to herself, and a Slytherin would be more attuned to what the professor actually wanted (thus, a simpering Draco in Snape's class). Second, she cares more about being right than about succeeding. In some cases "being right" might translate to "doing the right thing" -- in that she'll sacrifice *some* of her studying to worthy causes and things she sees as being "more important", and she herself has said that some things are more important than "books and cleverness".

As for the insecurity issue: my personal feeling is that there are very few people in the world who *aren't* insecure about one thing or another, and they are probably not very interesting as characters in a novel. She is both confident and insecure at different times.
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jynx67
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:31 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 170
Not to beat a dead horse, here, but I didn't think opening a new thread would be prudent considering this involves Hermione...

But why oh why must authors constantly put her with every single male (and many female) character, especially OLDER male characters (ie. Severus and Remus and even Sirius!)?

I've noticed recently a rash of Hermione/Lupin stories. Oi! And no offense to everyone on this site since Ashwinder is the most popular archive here, but that relationship doesn't work either. And the majority of these stories I've noticed have been rated B, W or L.

Yes, I understand "sex sells", but why must Hermione be shipped that way? Is it because she is the only "main" female character and therefore she has to be whored out in fanfiction? I just want to understand what draws people to write and let alone READ these stories.

Yeah, I'm a bit jaded on the whole subject, but I really would like your views on the subject (those of you who still drop in here on occasion), because I just can't seem to understand it.
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celisnebula
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:00 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 312 Location: USA
I write from what I, as a female, have experienced and am attracted to, when it comes to shipping Hermione. I've always been with, and attracted to older men (my son's father was 18 years older than me), hence shipping Hermione with Snape, Lupin, Shaklebolt, or Bill W and Charlie W doesn't phase me - in fact, I could see Hermione being attracted to them and acting on that impulse. From what I've read, others do too.

I think a great many people write Hermione because she's in someways one of the more complex female characters in the book, she wants to be black and white, but her actions aren't, and so writers go from there. I don't see it as whoring her out, though clearly you feel so.

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jynx67
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:37 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 170
I guess maybe I've not been exposed to the right stories. The majority of ones I have seen have Hermione jumping into bed immediately or submitting to them easily. I don't see Hermione as that type. As you say, she is a very strong character, which I agree on. I just don't see her as "easy".

I also must be too old and old fashioned.
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Pennfana
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:16 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 216 Location: Ontario, Canada
Old and old-fashioned? Surely not! Wink

Actually, I don't see her as the sort to just jump into bed with a wizard who catches her fancy either, even if she has known them for a number of years. I always figured that she'd be pretty shy where matters of the heart were concerned (after all, there's only so much about love that you can learn from a book), and it's not like we see her get involved with many guys in canon. There's Viktor Krum in GoF, a party that she goes to with Cormac McLaggen in HBP and then Ron in the epilogue to DH—not exactly a whole lot of experience to draw on, especially since she spent most of the party she attended with McLaggen trying to avoid him.

Even if she did eventually want to act on her feelings for someone, I could see her being extremely cautious about it. She might not be a coward, but I've noticed that she does like to know precisely what she's getting into when she does something she's never done before. Furthermore, being a Muggleborn who grew up in the 80's and 90's, she'd be well aware of the risk of AIDS and other STDs and might be hesitant to approach a sexual relationship on that count as well; even if wizards don't get these diseases, who's to say that they don't have some sort of equivalent? She'd want to know if that was a risk.

All in all, I couldn't see her as the sort who'd submit to a potential lover very easily. She'd probably make him work for the privilege, and her emotions would probably have to be pretty deeply involved, too.

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Overhill
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:10 am Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 263 Location: Central Oregon, near a wyer, but the dragons are downstairs....
jynx67 asked:

Quote:
But why oh why must authors constantly put her with every single male (and many female) character, especially OLDER male characters (ie. Severus and Remus and even Sirius!)?


They use the Older ones because there aren't that many Younger ones. The Creavy brothers are the only ones who come to mind. And they are underage. Wink

And why Hermione? Just mental laziness: she's the most developed of the female characters, and has the most room on the paper. Some of the loveliest stuff I've read has been with the least common females, but there's so little about them, that the authors have had freedom to re-create them into their own characters.

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Sporky1126
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:59 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 Posts: 14
I think another reason that Hermione gets paired with older men much of the time is the fact that she is more mature than the boys we see in the books. As is usually the case with teenagers, the female matures earlier than the boys. Since the DH Epilogue is the only glance we see of them as adults, we have no way of knowing when (if?) Harry and Ron matured. That's part of the reason I didn't like the Epilogue; one moment Harry and Ron are (somewhat) immature 17-year-old boys, and next thing you know, BOOM! They're nearly 40. I would have liked to have seen a glance of them maturing, because whenever I read the epilogue, I picture Harry, Ron, and Draco as still being 17 mentally (which is probably why I don't ship Ron/Hermione; since Ron needed to do some maturing before I would consider R/H feasible, and we never saw that maturing take place, I tend to assume it didn't happen. Which is unfair to Ron, I admit).
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