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< The Library ~ My Why-Snape-Is-Not-Evil Theory (Spoilers) |
| Owlbait |
 Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:01 am |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 92
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Verity Brown wrote: I think what really gets to me (apart from the possibility that I'm wrong about this) is that the "Snape is evil, we knew it all along" folks are going to have a field day with this book. As if Snape fans don't take enough guff already.
He's still sexy - and we have a new lyrical speech to gush over. Oh, which reminds me. My theory on why Dumbledore finally gave him the DADA job - so Harry could take N.E.W.T. Potions and have a shot at the auror job 
Verity Brown wrote: My little paranoid impulse is asking: does she really hate Severus-fandom and Severus-fics enough to have made it this bad specifically in order to kill them? My rational mind says: no, of course not, she's planned this all along and that's why she's been warning us not to like him too well.
I had this fear too. Still, she also was upset at the Draco fangirls, and she made him a more sympathetic character. |
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| NeoQBirdie |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:03 am |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 11
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Quote: My little paranoid impulse is asking: does she really hate Severus-fandom and Severus-fics enough to have made it this bad specifically in order to kill them? My rational mind says: no, of course not, she's planned this all along and that's why she's been warning us not to like him too well.
Have faith in JKR, Verity! She has said time and time again that all the books have been fully planned out before she had a following, and I imagine that it goes doubly that she had to absolutely know where she was going to write a series like this. Also, there was no point to Snape doing all that work for Dumbledore, and working so hard to keep Harry safe and alive if he was just going to be another bad guy. There was a reason for it. Snape will be fully vindicated in book 7 mark my words.
Quote: My take on it is he feels revulsion and hatred for himself, his own past actions got him into this horrible situation.
You have read my mind completely here, Owlbait! |
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| Verity Brown |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:19 am |
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Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Midwest USA
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Owlbait wrote: It gets mentioned so much that Harry looks exactly like his father, except for his mother's eyes. It has to be important. I can't see any other reason than that someone cared about her. Sev being the obvious candidate.
Well, there's Slug. I noticed that part of the reason he was so taken with Harry was that his eyes reminded Slug of Lily's, and that that may have played a big role in Harry being able to get the memory from him. However, if that's all it turns out to be, after all the build up, I'll be awfully disappointed.
Does anybody else think that the memory was not quite as drastically important as it was made out to be. Clearly Dumbledore knew what a horcrux was, and he had already taken steps to destroy the ones he knew about *long* before Harry gets the true memory. Indeed, the only thing that the true memory tells us is (if my memory has not been too fogged by fibro and lack of sleep) that Voldie planned to make *seven* of them. Which yes, is important. But not so important as finding about the existance of such things to begin with.
Verity |
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I still have implicit faith in Severus Snape. Now more than ever. |
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| dryade |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:41 am |
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Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
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Quote: Have faith in JKR, Verity! She has said time and time again that all the books have been fully planned out before she had a following, and I imagine that it goes doubly that she had to absolutely know where she was going to write a series like this. Also, there was no point to Snape doing all that work for Dumbledore, and working so hard to keep Harry safe and alive if he was just going to be another bad guy. There was a reason for it. Snape will be fully vindicated in book 7 mark my words.
I wholeheartedly agree! There are too many small things pointing to exactly that conclusion.
What I wonder, though, is whether or not this’ll save Snape in the end. If it comes down to a confrontation between Harry and him, I don’t think Harry’ll find it in him to forgive. I know he let Wormtail go but that was before Diggory and before Dumbledore and certainly before finding out that Snape’s responsible for the prophecy- leak.
I mean, those are huge factors counting against Snape - and we all know just how set Harry is against him already, even before he knew all that. What could Snape possibly have to offer to redeem himself?
dryade |
Last edited by dryade on Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| dryade |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:51 am |
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Joined: 16 Jul 2005
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Quote: Does anybody else think that the memory was not quite as drastically important as it was made out to be. Clearly Dumbledore knew what a horcrux was, and he had already taken steps to destroy the ones he knew about *long* before Harry gets the true memory. Indeed, the only thing that the true memory tells us is (if my memory has not been too fogged by fibro and lack of sleep) that Voldie planned to make *seven* of them. Which yes, is important. But not so important as finding about the existance of such things to begin with.
Yeah, I thought it was a little odd, too. I mean, Dumbledore’s already looked for the Horcruxes, hasn’t he? He already knew (or suspected) what the diary had been and the ring. And he already knew there was more than one of them. Why would he need to know that it was Slughorn who passed on that information to Riddle?
dyade |
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| Two Methyloctane |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:20 am |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 96
Location: Calgary, Canada
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I really doubt JK had Snape kill Dumbledore simply because she hates Snape and Snape fans. I think she's had the entire storyline planned out, and I'm sure it has a certain significance to the plot.
And the hatred in his eyes may have been hatred at himself for having to kill his mentor and friend. That may have been the reason we saw CAPS-LOCK SNAPE afterwards, simply because he was ashamed at the fact his duty called for him to kill Dumbledore.
I mean, the way I see it, JK obviously has a reason for hating Snape. She knows anything and everything about him, and unlike our fanfics to the contrary, I don't think he is a good man. On the good side, but because it's more advantageous to him and because he may not agree with Voldemort's philosophy. I think he's just simply used to being picked on and not being trusted, and I don't think anything could undo that.
EDIT: Sorry for posting what everyone's said already... I'd thought I'd hit Post earlier, but I guess I hadn't. Maybe it was the idea of the seven Horcruxes that Dumbledore needed, not necessarily that they existed in the first place. |
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| yearight |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:39 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 1
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| hey guys. i know this sounds a bit ridiculous. but is it possible that the dead dumbledore isn't really dumbledore at all? maybe.. by some chance, polyjuice potion comes into use or anything? therefore the "dumbledore" snape killed off isn't really dumbledore. perhaps he's just hiding somewhere! |
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| Melvacaea |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:43 pm |
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Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 36
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Wishful thinking, right? Yeah, I thought so.
I doubt it.
Mum says "Maybe she's planning to bring him back as a ghost". She said it with this... tiny note of disbelief. I don't think so. Sorry. |
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"One word removes us from the weight and pain of life -- that word is love." -Sophocles
Severus' mind is his own. We can only speculate. |
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| Celeste |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:43 pm |
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Joined: 16 Jul 2005
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Nah, I'm not on the "DD isn't really dead" bandwagon. I've been expecting his death after book 4... it just makes sense from a perspective of how else do Harry and Voldemort have the face off if Dumbledore is standing between them.
Although, I thought it would be Voldemort who got Dumbledore... and I'm still reeling. |
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| Owlbait |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:58 pm |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 92
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yearight wrote: hey guys. i know this sounds a bit ridiculous. but is it possible that the dead dumbledore isn't really dumbledore at all? maybe.. by some chance, polyjuice potion comes into use or anything? therefore the "dumbledore" snape killed off isn't really dumbledore. perhaps he's just hiding somewhere!
I had a few seconds of hope since he got knocked off the tower - the spell could have failed, especially if Snape didn't really want to kill him - and we didn't see the body right away. Nope, he's dead. We have a body, a grieving phoenix, and a new portrait of a dead headmaster. And according to Jo, dead is dead, he won't be coming back.
We may get to chat with him via the portrait though. I don't think they will close the school, even if Harry etc decide to skip their final year. |
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| Kismet |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:09 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 34
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| Dumbledore's funeral gave me a moment of pause in thinking he might not be totally gone. Flames roaring up and obscuring the body; Harry thinking he might have seen a phoenix flying away and then the marble tomb obscuring everything. It kind of made me wonder if Dumbledore became a phoenix; no longer a wizard but certainly not without power. |
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| Delirium |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:12 pm |
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 34
Location: New York
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OK, I'm definitely on the "Snape is not evil" side (though how "good" he is isn't an issue for me, he's a horrible person, but horrible people can be on the side of good). JKR has never said she hated Snape. She said she likes writing the character and she writes him beautifully. She just knows more about him than we do and can't imagine anyone wanting to be loved by him.
Now, the "ironclad trust" that Dumbledore had for Snape...could they have had their own Unbreakable Vow? Perhaps something along the lines that Snape will have to do whatever it takes not to blow his cover, including killing Dumbledore if need be? That could point towards their argument. Snape didn't want it to have to be that way and Dumbledore knew that it would have to be. |
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| Alynna |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:01 pm |
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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Location: central Maryland
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Delirium wrote: OK, I'm definitely on the "Snape is not evil" side (though how "good" he is isn't an issue for me, he's a horrible person, but horrible people can be on the side of good). JKR has never said she hated Snape. She said she likes writing the character and she writes him beautifully. She just knows more about him than we do and can't imagine anyone wanting to be loved by him.
Now, the "ironclad trust" that Dumbledore had for Snape...could they have had their own Unbreakable Vow? Perhaps something along the lines that Snape will have to do whatever it takes not to blow his cover, including killing Dumbledore if need be? That could point towards their argument. Snape didn't want it to have to be that way and Dumbledore knew that it would have to be.
Just the two points I wanted to make. Look at how we all fell in love with Sirius, and how he was written... only to find out JKR had no idea that we'd react so badly to his death. You can't assume that her likes and dislikes all translate into a direct expression of same on paper. I've never gotten the impression she hates Snape, only that she warns that he is dangerous.
I've also had the Unbreakable Vow theory in my head since it was introduced in the second chapter. A bit obvious, maybe, but how much more ironclad can you get? We definitely still don't know the whole story about why Snape joined Dumbledore.
Something else that fuels my Snape-is-good theory: It would perhaps have been difficult to kill Flitwick, I think, even if Snape did not know that Hermione and Luna were outside his door (which we don't really know, do we?). When the two went inside, however, he could very easily have turned around and caught them both in the back. What a great way to demoralize Harry, killing one of his best friends... So why didn't he?
And why didn't he let the Death Eater who crucioed Harry immoblize the boy and take him along? He's just killed Dumbledore - any self-respecting Slytherin would work the situation to his advantage and try to get more glory for himself. Voldemort would have enjoyed a demoralized Harry at his mercy. The fact that Harry is still alive and unharmed really gives me faith in Snape.
The conversation Hagrid overheard must be significant as well - Snape is either trying to back out of spying/doing his duty, or he is pretending to. n light of events at the end of the book, I highly doubt he was pretending. |
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| Lariff |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:08 pm |
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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Location: Calgary
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I agree with alot of the Snape is good theories running around, because mostly I have always been able to see the good in Snape.
Snape is a very intelligent wizard, that much no one can deny, no matter what bandwagon you're on. He's a strategist, as we can see by his quickthinking in tight situations. Now, it would have been ridiculously dangerous to refuse to make the Unbreakable Vow; he no choice. In the tower, he has three options... either he lets Draco kill Dumbledore, he kills Dumbledore, or neither he or Draco does, Snape dies and DEs kill Dumbledore anyway.
The Draco option is weak. It's quite obvious he's not emotionally up to it. And part of his vow was to watch over Draco... forcing him to do something that would push over the psychological edge he's been standing on all year is not what I would consider watching over someone.
As for the DE option, it may well be the one Snape feels like giving in to. That way he doesn't have to live with the shame of killing Dumbledore, or corrupting Draco.
But Snape is smarter than that, self-depricating though he may be. Dumbledore will die in all three scenarios. Now he must consider not only what is best for him, but what is best for the Order, and, of course, Harry. Bellatrix has told us that Voldemort trusts Snape, and we know from the previous books that Snape is very powerful. Who better to train Harry in combat? Not to mention, his cover as a spy has still not been blown.
The Order members are against him right now, but the shock of Dumbledore's death is hard to ignore. But Minerva McGonagall is a logical woman. She will realize that there's more to the story. Hopefully, Snape will be heard.
Anyway, that's my theory on things.
But then again, I'm madly in love with Snape. It broke my poor little heart when he did what he did. |
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| odsbodkins2005 |
| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:54 pm |
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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I still do think Snape is good. It was a shock when I first read the book, but am definitely thinking that this was the way it was meant to be, and that this was the way Dumbledore intended it to be.
I'll probably be repeating what most people have said, but here goes:
1. Snape had to make the pact with Narcissa. Bellatrix was already doubting his loyalty. (it also makes me wonder if Snape has already made a similar pact with Dumbledore, which is why Dumbledore insists on trusting hime so much). The result of the pact is that Draco must kill Dumbledore, or Snape must. If he fails to do so, then Snape himself dies. (thereby no longer being privy to Voldemort's inner circle obviously)
2. Dumbledore knows of the vow. Whether or not Snape told him, is it not clear from the book that Harry tells Dumbledore about the conversation that he overheard. Therefore Dumbledore knows what the outcome is going to be. He is probably well aware that Draco will not be up to task of killing him and so he knows that Snape will either have to kill him or Snape will have to die himself. I think Dumbledore would find it more important to have someone in Voldemort's inner circle than to be alive himself. Dumbledore says time and time again that he is not scared of dying, that it is the next great adventure. I think at this stage he is more concerned with the extermination of Voldemort than he is about his own life.
3. Therefore Dumbledore tells Snape that when it comes to it, Snape must kill him. I'd imagine that Snape would not be happy with this. I think that this is the substance of the argument that Hagrid overhears. Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, but cannot face the thought of following his orders to the point of killing him. I'm still going on the theory that Snape owes a lot to Dumbledore.
4. At the end of the book, Dumbledore again knows that Draco will not be able to kill him. When Snape appears, Dumbledore pleads with him. I think it must be clear that Dumbledore is not pleading for his life - he is not scared of death, and he sees death as the next adventure. He also knows of the consequences should Snape fail to kill him. This is also why he has stupified Harry, to stop him interfering. So he pleads with Snape to kill him, as perhaps he worries that Snape will not go though with it. The anger and revulsion on Snape's face is due to the fact that he hates what he has to do.
5. Later on, Snape is still angry at Harry. Despite all that I've said above, he still doesn't like him. And he hates being called a coward, when he probably feels he has just done the most difficult thing he has ever had to do.
Anyway, that's my thoughts. If it's anywhere near the truth, then the only issue is how Snape is going to be able to use his position to help Harry. There is no way Harry will ever believe or trust him. Maybe the only way is a pensieve.
Anyway, as far as fanfics are concerned - it certainly ends all the Potions Master etc. But what about the angsty Snape, just killed the person he was loyal to, struggling with a leader he hates.
Who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong, and he's just an evil so and so! 
Odsbodkins |
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