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| just me |
 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:30 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Germany
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Hi all,
maybe you are interested in this article which I find very good. The writer expresses many things I was feeling in reading the book but could not say in adequate words.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070725/cm_csm/ysawyer_1
But there is much more that upsets me in Book 7: from a certain point of view Snape and Harry do the same thing -- they are willing to sacrifice themselves for the ones they love and/or for the greater good! And they both do it -- but what do they get for in return?
Well, Harry get´s it all: the glory, the fame, the happily ever after. And what does Snape get? Nothing! Not even a proper funeral!
And why is that? I can tell you why: It´s because Harry is real hero material: he is young, good looking, most people like him and so on.
Snape on the other hand is no hero material at all: ugly, unpleasant, not liked by anyone (sometimes I think not even DD liked him) ...
So the message of JKR´s books is: you can do what you want, struggle all you will, sacrifice all you have (included your life), but if you don´t look right you have no chance of winning the prize.
This, in my eyes, makes her a hypocrite. Throughout all her books her message seems to be: it´s not important where you come from, it´s not important who you are, it doesn´t matter what "blood" runs in your veins... the only thing that matters is what you choose.
That´s a lie (by omission), because she should have said honestly and truthfully: the only thing that matters is how you choose -- and how you look!
Because that is the only reason Snape had to die: he was too ugly and unpleasant to be hero material and therefore had to die in this absolutely unglorious and completely unnecessairy way (I think there would haven been thousands of other ways, plotwise, to bring Snapes memories and messages to Harry).
I`m deeply dissappointed of Book 7, though I like some of the writing, parts of the plot and some scenes. But seeing it as the end of what could have been a grandiose story told in 7 books it´s terribly lacking. JKR was on the way to create something fantastic, but in the end she destroyed her own work.
All the best,
robe |
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| pipedreamer |
| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:21 pm |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Newcastle, UK
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I disagree.
Harry has been the “symbol of resistance” for the anti-Voldemort movement since halfway through the 5th book. As you mention, he’s a teenager and male – not to mention sporty, therefore he’s naturally going to be somewhat attractive. People, for better or worse, find that important.
Snape is in his (at minimum) 30’s if not older – don’t forget the graves in Godric’s Hollow – James and Lily were about 21 when they died in 1981. Fast forward 16 years and you get 37 years old, assuming that if they shared a school year they’re all the same age. He inhabits a dungeon and is, frankly, scary as hell to most students and not some few teachers.
You are also basing your entire argument on the assumption that there’s only one type of hero. Wrong. There are different types of heroes – the famous and the unsung. Snape is an unsung hero. JKR makes sure we know it when Harry tells his son that Snape was one of the best men he ever knew.
Snape was a bitter, nasty, unpleasant and bullying man when he was a teacher. So no – he’s not “famous” hero material and died an ignominious death because of it.
You’re reading the surface text only if you think that Snape was not lauded like Harry just because of the way he looked – actions speak louder than words and Snape’s actions would never endear him to the population like Harry had been.
In every rebellion, or hierarchy, or struggle, there must always be someone willing to do the dark, messy or generally unpleasant aspects of the job. That was Snape, and it made him a nasty piece of work. His goal may have been the same as Harry’s, but in JKR’s world (and I’ve said this in another thread because it is all-important) motives matter. Methods matter – why do you think Dumbledore was so keen on keeping his shiny-white appearance of a benevolent, unquestionably good man?
Snape grew to be a hero – to the people who mattered. To Harry – and we can assume Ron and Hermione – and to those Harry tells regarding Snape’s memory he gives to Harry. Harry’s deeds will eventually fall into Wizarding history. Snape, meanwhile, will live on in the hearts and minds of those who, finally, came to realise his true role in Voldemort’s downfall.
It's ironic - Harry never wanted to be the hero, the one who's famous and pointed at - but he became him. Do you think Snape wanted all that attention either? Even if he was given Harry-style recognition, he would never fit the traditional hero mould in a million years.
JKR has created with Snape the kind of hero who challenges all our preconceptions and expectations as to who or what a hero should be. Her message isn’t “the goodlooking win and the ugly lose” – that’s far too simplistic. Her message – at least to me – is that sometimes the people who do the most extraordinary things to ensure the hero wins can go unrecognised until it’s too late – that you never know what you’ve got until it’s gone.
The mark of a good double agent – like the qualities of a good house elf – is that you should only see the results of his work, not the way he does it.
And Snape was one of the best. |
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| just me |
| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:03 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Germany
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pipedreamer wrote: I disagree.
That´s okay with me.
pipedreamer wrote: ... People, for better or worse, find that important.
That´s exactly the point.
pipedreamer wrote: ... He inhabits a dungeon and is, frankly, scary as hell to most students and not some few teachers.
So because he is unpleasant and scary (which we know mostly from Harry`s point of view; in HBP (the Vow-scene) we got a slightly different image of Snape), he does not deserve to live a somewhat normal life after the battle? And I think everybody who'd have to live Snape´s life would become unpleasant as well.
pipedreamer wrote: Snape is an unsung hero. JKR makes sure we know it when Harry tells his son that Snape was one of the best men he ever knew.
You forgot to mention that he is an unsung dead hero, whereas Harry is "sung" and alive. I think Snape would prefer to be unsung and alive.
pipedreamer wrote: Snape was a bitter, nasty, unpleasant and bullying man when he was a teacher. So no – he’s not “famous” hero material and died an ignominious death because of it.
So you think because of his bitterness and so on it´s okay to despose of him in this way???
pipedreamer wrote: ... actions speak louder than words and Snape’s actions would never endear him to the population like Harry had been.
And what actions exactly do you mean? I have thoroughly checked all the books and I did not find anything bad he did apart from being generally unpleasant and being a --former-- DeathEater. He killed Dumbledore, yes, but we know he did it on DD´s orders. He was bullying children, yes, and especially Harry, but if we would simply kill all people (teachers) who are cruel to children our world would be much emptier... and our school years much easier.
pipedreamer wrote: In every rebellion, or hierarchy, or struggle, there must always be someone willing to do the dark, messy or generally unpleasant aspects of the job. That was Snape, and it made him a nasty piece of work. His goal may have been the same as Harry’s, but in JKR’s world (and I’ve said this in another thread because it is all-important) motives matter. Methods matter – why do you think Dumbledore was so keen on keeping his shiny-white appearance of a benevolent, unquestionably good man?
What exactly was wrong with Snape´s motives? He did all he did for someone he loved (Lily) and someone he respected (DD) and for the greater good, because he knew from the prophecy that Harry would bring the downfall of the Dark Lord... which is good for all wizards and witches.
Harry did what he did for someone he loved (his friends and dead parents), for someone he respected (DD) and for the greater good, because he knew from the prophecy he would bring the downfall of the Dark Lord... which is good for all wizards and witches.
So what exactly was wrong with Snape´s motives?
And Dumbledore? Dumbledore was a human being apart from being a wizard, and don´t all human beings tend to be keen on keeping their shiny-white appearance? And what exactly did Dumbledore do? Having the wrong ideas in his youth (don´t we all think different when we are young and unexperienced)? Killing his sister? It was an accident. What should he have done? Go to Azkaban for something someone else might be culpable for?
pipedreamer wrote:
Snape grew to be a hero – to the people who mattered. To Harry – and we can assume Ron and Hermione – and to those Harry tells regarding Snape’s memory he gives to Harry. Harry’s deeds will eventually fall into Wizarding history. Snape, meanwhile, will live on in the hearts and minds of those who, finally, came to realise his true role in Voldemort’s downfall.
Again you forget to mention that Snape is a dead hero. And yes, Harry's story will surely fall into Wizarding History, and as long as there will be wizards and witches he won´t be forgotten. But as soon as Harry and all the few people who knew him will be dead (and not even wizards and witches live for ever) he will be forgotten as all the other unsung dead heroes in this world.
Do you think this is okay? I don´t.
pipedreamer wrote:
... Do you think Snape wanted all that attention either? Even if he was given Harry-style recognition, he would never fit the traditional hero mould in a million years.
No, I don´t think Snape would have wanted all the attention, but it would have been nice to give him a chance to say no!
And just because someone does not fit the traditional hero mould in a million years it is not okay to deny or refuse him recognition and acceptance.
pipedreamer wrote:
JKR has created with Snape the kind of hero who challenges all our preconceptions and expectations as to who or what a hero should be. Her message isn’t “the goodlooking win and the ugly lose” – that’s far too simplistic.
I disagree with you... the way I understand the books this is exactly what she is saying: We cannot all be winners or heroes, so please let´s concentrate on choosing the good looking and pleasant people for the job.
pipedreamer wrote:
Her message – at least to me – is that sometimes the people who do the most extraordinary things to ensure the hero wins can go unrecognised until it’s too late – that you never know what you’ve got until it’s gone.
If this was really her message I think she could have found a much better way to say it.
pipedreamer wrote:
The mark of a good double agent – like the qualities of a good house elf – is that you should only see the results of his work, not the way he does it.
Nice comparison... really. 
pipedreamer wrote:
And Snape was one of the best.
Yes, and what good did it do him? |
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| Circle_of_Echoes |
| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:01 am |
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Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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Thank you for the link. I think we might have read the article a trifle differently, but it says a great deal to me as well. Can't believe I'd ever get this upset about a book--and I do keep trying to remind myself that's what it is--but I find that there are a scary number of aspects of Snape's life that mirror my own (No, I was never a Death Eater!!!! We did, however, have a Voldemort when I was growing up: his name was Charles Manson). Maybe that's why I see DH as such a betrayal: because Snape was, indeed, reduced to nothing more than a pathetic, sappy plot device. But he was so very human and complicated, and I'd had such hope for him...
*sigh*
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| pipedreamer |
| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:01 pm |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2005
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Location: Newcastle, UK
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I certainly see where you’re coming from – Snape’s death hardly does seem fair, considering all he has done to protect Harry, considering that he was on the right side all along. Bear in mind that if we are going strictly canon here, we have no proof that Snape didn’t have a hero’s funeral – only that one wasn’t mentioned. Nobody’s funeral was mentioned at all, so where everybody gets the idea he didn’t get a proper funeral from, I’m not sure…
But look at it this way – Snape was a hero to everyone whose opinion of him mattered – specifically Harry’s. As unpleasant as he might have been, he to my mind desperately wanted Harry to know who he had been, and why he did what he did – out of love. It’s no secret that Harry has hated Snape since day one – but when Harry learns that Snape protected Harry out of love for his mother, he is redeemed.
JKR also teaches us a powerful lesson about heroism: there isn’t only one type. Harry’s survival as a baby and his destiny to destroy Voldemort thrust him into the public eye and made him into a hero. Snape had no such protection, and you’re right, it’s not fair. But then Snape’s death reflected his life somewhat – he died as he worked: quietly, in the background and with few people knowing the real truth as to what happened in his life (and death). I like that parallel.
You do seem to take the stance that the “public hero” persona is the preferred one. Not to Snape, surely? We know now that Snape is a good guy and has been all along; we don’t need to see him fêted in a ticker-tape parade to know that. To have him in that situation would be, in my opinion, a ridiculous plot device to labour the point that he was a good guy all along. We don’t need that fact shoved down our throats by virtue of popular acclaim
There are different types of heroism, and Snape wasn’t the kind Harry was. Their motives were the same, I agree with you. Love above all. He simply went about his way of being a hero the way he seemed to do everything: quietly, in the background. Harry doesn’t understand subtlety. Snape was an extremely subtle man. It doesn’t make him less of a hero just because he was never acknowledged by the wider wizarding world. That’s easy celebrity status. Anyone can be put on a pedestal and celebrated. Not everyone could do the work Snape did for so long and so well. He is a hero, and recognised as such – by the only people whose opinion he’d give two Knuts about.
It sounds to me as though you are so fond of Snape’s character (as well you should be, he’s a wonderful character) that the grand redemption scene you were so hoping for didn’t pan out the way you wanted and so now you are lashing out. Naturally you’re disappointed, but not every hero gets the acclaim.
I believe that Snape will live on in the hearts of Harry, Ron, Hermione and anyone else they may have told (perhaps the rest of the Order), and that his story will be passed down through their families, to Harry’s children James, Albus Severus and Lily, to Rose and Hugo, and so on. I don’t think Snape’s memory will die at all – it will simply be a more private remembrance.
Snape’s a hero to the people who matter. And that is the important point. Popular acclaim doesn’t mean someone’s the best – only that they were more noticeable. Snape is a hero in every way that matters, and he will stay that way for as long as the Final Battle is remembered.
Probably forever. |
_________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
~Terry Pratchett~ |
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| just me |
| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:14 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Location: Germany
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I think you try to somehow console me and I appreciate it very much, if it is meant this way. On a very rational level I even agree with some of your arguments. But there are things you cannot understand, because you don´t know me, and some points you cannot understand because my English is not really good. There are concepts I´m not able to express adequately, so I´m afraid that in some points you do not understand what I´m trying to say. But it´s my fault, not yours.
pipedreamer wrote:
It sounds to me as though you are so fond of Snape’s character (as well you should be, he’s a wonderful character) that the grand redemption scene you were so hoping for didn’t pan out the way you wanted and so now you are lashing out. Naturally you’re disappointed, but not every hero gets the acclaim.
You are right, I´m really fond of Snape (for the most personal reasons), but you are wrong in thinking it is the grand redemption scene I´m after. It´s his continued existence I´m after! I would have wanted for him to survive the final battle, and I think he had deserved to live. But JKR decided to kill him and she did this because she despised him because of his uglyness and nastyness. She practically admitted this in an interview I saw today: She was asked if there where people in the books who should have died, but did not. She said, yes, Arthur Weasley should have died in Book 5, but got a "reprieve" because she could not bear the thought of him being dead. And we all know Arthur Weasley to be a nice, congenial and friendly person -- hero material!
In Snape´s case she had no such qualms, unpleasant and nasty as he was.
She was also asked if Snape was meant to be a hero from the beginning? She was visibly irritated, laughed a little strange and asked back: Is he a hero? I don´t think so. But he is immensely brave.
She obviously did not want to talk about Snape.
Here is the link, go see for yourself if you like: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/ (press "Launch" beneath the picture of JKR)
pipedreamer wrote: I believe that Snape will live on in the hearts of Harry, Ron, Hermione and anyone else they may have told (perhaps the rest of the Order), and that his story will be passed down through their families, to Harry’s children James, Albus Severus and Lily, to Rose and Hugo, and so on. I don’t think Snape’s memory will die at all – it will simply be a more private remembrance.
Snape’s a hero to the people who matter. And that is the important point. Popular acclaim doesn’t mean someone’s the best – only that they were more noticeable. Snape is a hero in every way that matters, and he will stay that way for as long as the Final Battle is remembered.
Probably forever.
You are absolutely right, he will probably be remembered, but this is not the point: I think to be alive is much better than to be well remembered -- I for example would prefer to be alive instead of being an unsung dead hero. And I think Snape has deserved to survive the final battle, but JKR decided otherwise because he is ugly and nasty and no hero material, and because it is okay -- in her eyes -- to dispose of unpleasant people in this way... and obviously many others see it like her. She could have given him a "reprieve" as she did with Arthur Weasley, but she did not.
Now you can say that it is her books and her story and that she can do whatever she wants with her characters. I agree with you up to a certain point, but on the other hand I think authors are in a certain way responsible for the messages they send out into the world, especially if they are writing stories for children.
Every death --if in a book or a movie-- should be really necessary and should be very well considered. And JKR herself said that "the deaths were all very, very very considered", she would not even kill fictional characters lightly. And here she does not tell the whole truth.
Snape`s death was unnecessary and the way he died was really despicable. I think he has deserved better. He has deserved to live and to decide for himself if he wants all the attention and recognition of a hero.
The message of Book 7 --even if you think I put it a bit simplicistic-- remains for me: Nice people can be granted a reprieve, but nasty people... sorry, no way! |
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| pipedreamer |
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:02 am |
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Joined: 28 Apr 2005
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I do see your point – and to some extent I agree with you. However I do still believe that the killing Snape off because he’s ugly and nasty and gave Arthur Weasley a reprieve because he is kind and good is over-simplifying the matter.
There are quite a few ways I think JKR could have allowed Snape to survive and then quietly disappear out of the lives of the characters, leaving Harry etc with the same feelings towards him that they have once he’s dead. So yes, maybe he should have survived.
Who knows? Perhaps JKR could have been more effective in her message, so that this ambiguity didn’t exist. I think she could have made it clearer why she killed Snape. But I still believe there’s more to it than just because he’s ugly and nasty. He was both these things and I don’t deny it, but if there’s one thing that has become clear to me in the Wizarding world, it’s that JKR doesn’t tend to “off” characters for no reason. I believe Snape had to die because once again it was a wake-up call to Harry. Snape was the final person protecting Harry to fall – as did his mother, father, Sirius and Dumbledore before him. One by one those who were directly responsible for his safety have been killed – and I think Snape was no different.
If Snape hadn’t died I doubt Harry (or the readers) would have ever known for certain that he was on the right side all along. I can’t imagine Snape willingly letting Harry see such intensely personal memories whilst Snape was still alive and kicking.
As clumsy a plot device as it may be to some people, Snape’s death is necessary to prove without ambiguity that he was unequivocally on the Order’s side all along. I would quite like to see him survive too. I think he’s a wonderful character and deserves the reprieve – but it wouldn’t serve the story’s purpose to have him survive.
I do also believe that JKR has a responsibility to her characters and to her fans to provide the best possible story. I wonder if the secrecy surrounding the book meant that it could not be edited/improved satisfactorily. Apparently (and this is only what I heard from a comment on the BBC website, and I am not stating it as fact) only 10 people in total knew of the plot to DH.
Now I’m not an authority on editing by any stretch of the imagination, but 10 people – including her agents – seems too few to make a good editing job – compared to the whole team of editors and proofreaders responsible for the storylines in at least the first 3 books. Perhaps some of the blame for the looser storyline and the eventual fate of our favourite characters rests with the fact that the books could not be edited sufficiently for fear of security leaks. If there wasn’t the threat of people selling the book’s plot to the gutter press or posting it online, we might have got a better story.
That’s my thought for the day – thanks for listening  |
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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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| Elisabeth |
| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:07 am |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006
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Interesting discussion. I’m more on justme’s side of this fence, although I’m inclined to view the book overall as an inspired story that, infuriatingly, just missed being great.
Killing off Snape wasn’t the problem; marginalizing him was. By making the Snape character so negligible, Rowling subscribed to a clichéd view of Heroism Triumphant in which anything other than anointed, chosen, cuddly goodness need not apply. Which, in my view, makes DH quite a disappointment as a Parable of Ultimate Sacrifice.
She introduced all the basic elements but in the end, resisted carrying through on a powerful parallel: a dual portrait of heroism in which one character selflessly fulfills a mission for which he is chosen, and another character fulfills a mission he himself chooses to make amends for a great wrong. But this idea is a nonstarter for JKR. She simply doesn’t like the character of Snape enough, so I suppose that even had she tried to write it this way, her heart wouldn’t have been in it.
Mind you, upon matters that DID interest her, JKR was eloquent and fascinating. The Harry/Albus relationship got a full and absorbing treatment. Harry’s transformation into humble, sacrificial hero was another huge point, and I think that if the book endures as a classic, it will do so because of the power of the scene where he walks out to meet Voldemort.
But, but. It’s disquieting to see JKR’s apparent irritation with Snape’s hold on many readers’ imaginations. Her statements seem aimed at putting Snape’s apologists firmly in their place. (The latest one I’ve seen is in her Bloomsbury online chat, in which she says Snape doesn’t deserve a portrait in the Headmaster’s office because he “effectively abandoned his post” right before his murder. Link: http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/full_story/1156)
How odd: For all her talk about Snape being part of an important pattern of redemption, she just couldn’t hold her nose and give him any final stature or sympathy. And yes, it would require some doing. Snape is a nasty piece of work. His heartbreak is his own damned fault. He wanted Lily’s acceptance, but he also wanted to be a Death Eater and surprise, surprise, it all blew up in his face. Dumbledore’s tough stance with Severus after Lily’s murder is pretty understandable.
Yet, Snape DID regret -- and repent. And if, as is often argued, a Christian ethic informs the Harry Potter books, it falls a bit short in DH. After all, a core message of the New Testament is that salvation is not a popularity contest, that Jesus had this habit of seeking out those whom the Beautiful People of his day despised and scorned. There’s a reason for all those stories about tax collectors and whores, after all. But in Rowling’s universe, the despised bleed out in the Shrieking Shack, to be belatedly reclaimed when the Beautiful People get around to it.
My bottom DH line: It’s an inspired misfire, a story simply full of verve and invention and emotional power right up to the crucial moment in the Shrieking Shack -- when it fizzles and whimpers into a minor key, instead of sailing out on a triumphant final chord. And I think that’s because JKR had a bit of a blind spot in the stretch. |
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| Circle_of_Echoes |
| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:34 am |
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Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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Quote: Elisabeth wrote:
Killing off Snape wasn’t the problem; marginalizing him was.
Ahhh... thank you for being able to say in one sentence what it takes me sixty-seven paragraphs to express.
Quote: By making the Snape character so negligible, Rowling subscribed to a clichéd view of Heroism Triumphant in which anything other than anointed, chosen, cuddly goodness need not apply. Which, in my view, makes DH quite a disappointment as a Parable of Ultimate Sacrifice.
You DO write well. I can't tell you how much I agree.
Quote: It’s disquieting to see JKR’s apparent irritation with Snape’s hold on many readers’ imaginations.
She said she could never understand the attraction of someone like Snape, and wrote his fans off as those who are attracted to bad boys. Huh? Sirius Black was a Bad Boy. So was James Potter to a lesser extent (sort of half parts swell-headed jerk and Bad Boy). Severus Snape was never a Bad Boy in the generally-used sense of the term. He was alone and neglected as a child, pushed aside as a teenager, and grasped at anything that would allow him to belong. That's called being desperate, not being a Bad Boy. It's hardly characteristic of just Snape; you see it every day in the real world. I wonder if she even knew how true-to-life a portrait she painted of him? I'm with those who believe Snape's character got out of her control after a time and became more three-dimensional and real than she ever intended him to be.
So he isn't nice. So he isn't all cuddly and handsome and beloved by animals and small children. So what? He's a seriously powerful character with exceptionally strong feelings and devastatingly hard interior struggles. How can you not respond to that?
Quote: Her statements seem aimed at putting Snape’s apologists firmly in their place. (The latest one I’ve seen is in her Bloomsbury online chat, in which she says Snape doesn’t deserve a portrait in the Headmaster’s office because he “effectively abandoned his post” right before his murder...)
Really? I just can't agree with the author on this. Snape's charge was to protect the students, which he had been doing all along. The way I saw it, the only way he had to continue in that charge WAS to leave. McGonagall, Flitwick, et al, had made a serious target of him (they are not exactly magical incompetents), and he'd not want the Carrows (or any of the other Death Eaters) trying to defend him. A whole lot of people would have gotten hurt. But can you imagine? Yet another reason to mistakenly call him a coward. Poor Severus; he just can't win no matter what he does... and he can't tell anyone WHY he does it. I hope he had a large stock of Ulcer-Healing Potion on hand; he'd need it.
Quote: There’s a reason for all those stories about tax collectors and whores, after all. But in Rowling’s universe, the despised bleed out in the Shrieking Shack, to be belatedly reclaimed when the Beautiful People get around to it.
Again, thank you. You are precisely right. And since that acknowledgement of the one who was most imperfect (but tried unto death to do his damnedest to make up for it) didn't come in the book--that sugar-coated epilogue just didn't cut it--I think it's up to the readers to give said acknowledgement, if only here.
Echo |
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| Elisabeth |
| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:12 pm |
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006
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Circle_of_Echoes wrote:
Since that acknowledgement of the one who was most imperfect (but tried unto death to do his damnedest to make up for it) didn't come in the book--that sugar-coated epilogue just didn't cut it--I think it's up to the readers to give said acknowledgement, if only here.
Echo
I think he'll get it, here anyway
And to be completely fair, I've now read over all her Snape-related comments and in total context, she's quite a bit kinder than the quote I snipped above implied. My bad.
<snip>Laura Trego: Was the absence of snapes portrait in the headmasters
office in the last scene innocent or deliberate
J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his
post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august
circles.
J.K. Rowling: However, I like to think that Harry would be
instrumental in ensuring that Snape's portrait would appear there in
due course.<end>
And these exchanges ...
<snip>Q. Do you think snape is a hero?
J.K. Rowling: Yes, I do; though a very flawed hero. An anti-hero,
perhaps. He is not a particularly likeable man in many ways. He
remains rather cruel, a bully, riddled with bitterness and
insecurity - and yet he loved, and showed loyalty to that love and,
ultimately, laid down his life because of it. That's pretty heroic!
Jaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape?
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically
(she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic
so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.
Annie: Does the wizarding world now know that snape was dumbledores
man, or do they still think he did a bunk
J.K. Rowling: Of course, that would not stop Rita Skeeter
writing 'Snape: Scoundrel or Saint?'
J.K. Rowling: Harry would ensure that Snape's heroism was known.<end>
While I wish a couple of these ideas have made it into the *book*, I'm feeling considerably more charitable toward Ms. Jo.
But I still think AU rocks...and Rita Skeeter should write that book!
Elisabeth  |
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| just me |
| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:58 pm |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Germany
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Elisabeth wrote:
My bottom DH line: It’s an inspired misfire, a story simply full of verve and invention and emotional power right up to the crucial moment in the Shrieking Shack -- when it fizzles and whimpers into a minor key, instead of sailing out on a triumphant final chord. And I think that’s because JKR had a bit of a blind spot in the stretch.
I could not have said it better, literally, because of my lacking knowledge of the English language. I think it´s the main problem here in this discussion: I have to express my thoughts in an over-simplifying way, just to be able to express them at all! I´m German and I´m thinking in German, I can´t help it, and everything I´m writing here is just a translation... and sometimes it´s a bad translation
But I think you see my point much better than others do, and thank you for standing a bit on my side of the fence.
Quote: Killing off Snape wasn’t the problem; marginalizing him was. By making the Snape character so negligible, Rowling subscribed to a clichéd view of Heroism Triumphant in which anything other than anointed, chosen, cuddly goodness need not apply. Which, in my view, makes DH quite a disappointment as a Parable of Ultimate Sacrifice.
There is much truth in what you are saying, but I have to disagree in one point: Killing off Snape IS the problem, and I would like to explain why, but as there is again the problem of my insufficient English knowledge it might all come out wrong. But I´ll try anyway.
I´ve read a discussion over at the Leaky Cauldron which was very interesting (it referred to the same article in Christian Science that started this post) and one of the posters expressed his/her thoughts the following way:
Quote: His (Harry`s) weakness is the old grudge. Lupin says as much in HBP: "You choose to hate him [Snape]. This was the point that needed to be resolved. Harry needed to choose to forgive the one person he had never been able to forgive: Snape.
He does, but it's all off-camera. He just shows up in the Great Hall extolling Snape as "Dumbledore's Man". Given how central remorse and love are to the story, we should have seen this transformation in Harry from hate and blame to compassion and forgiveness.
The post really struck me. Yes, I think that is one of the missing things that make the difference between "fizzles and whimpers into a minor key" and a "sailing out on a triumphant final chord". JKR should have shown us the inner struggle of Harry, should have shown us a real confrontation between Harry and Snape, not this "bloodless", lousy scene she gives us. She could have done much better, I´m sure.
But for a real confrontation Snape would have to be alive, and that´s exactly what JKR did not want, because in her eyes he does not deserve to live. In her eyes he was and is only the bully, the ugly, nasty, horrible person, someone who is to be disposed of, if required. It´s her prejudice against unpleasant people that made her finish Snape this way. And the horrible truth is that she is not alone with her opinion. I´ve read many many posts that express exactly the same: he only got what he deserved.
Snape is not only a fictional character, but a symbol for thousands of unpleasant people in real life, and it is commonly known that ugly or not that good looking people --or people who are different from others-- are vilified and badly treated.
In my eyes Snape is kind of a hero, but also a victim... a victim of the prejudices of his own creator, JKR. Had she found a better solution (not only for Snape, but also for Voldemort... but this would be a completely other thread), her work would habe been something really great. But as it is the way it is, it only "fizzles and whimpers into a minor key". |
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| Elisabeth |
| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:57 am |
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just me wrote:
There is much truth in what you are saying, but I have to disagree in one point: Killing off Snape IS the problem.
Since I opened up Book Seven in a fatalistic state of mind (I never thought JKR would let him live), I'd still only go so far as to say that killing off Snape too *soon* could be the problem -- because, as you say, it eliminated any final onstage resolution for him and for Harry.
It seemed to me that a huge priority in DH was Harry reaching his full maturity. Part of that involved his acceptance of the real meaning of the prophecy and being able to offer up his own life for his friends. Part of it involved realizing that Dumbledore was a human being with some troubling faults (which I think were a bit glossed over, but that's another post).
But a third part was missing -- the part in which Harry acknowledges that he flunked an important lesson in human nature by stubbornly refusing to reconsider his appraisals of what he observed around him. Snape was the classic example -- no matter how many times Dumbledore said "I trust Severus Snape," it never occurred to Harry to reconsider his own mistrust. And each book had at least one dramatic climax that involved something turning out to be quite other than what Harry thought it was.
So you're right, a conversation about Harry's reassessment of Snape would have made a lot of narrative sense. I happen to think that the conversation didn't HAVE to be between Harry and Snape. It could have taken place post-battle between Harry and Hermione, or between Harry and Dumbledore's portrait. Oh heck, it could have been between Harry and Filch but for heaven's sake, it should have happened. However, everything took place by implication. JKR made a distinct narrative choice and she spent her pages in other areas. To me it was a choice that weakened the final result.
just me wrote: ... for a real confrontation Snape would have to be alive, and that´s exactly what JKR did not want, because in her eyes he does not deserve to live. In her eyes he was and is only the bully, the ugly, nasty, horrible person, someone who is to be disposed of, if required.
I keep reminding myself that the body count in DH was very high overall, and a lot of characters were little more than cannon fodder in the end. But I agree that in Snape's case, the manner of his death meant the book really lost an important point not only about Snape, but about Harry, too.
P.S. Ich kann mir kaum nicht vorstellen, diese Gedanken auf Deutsch auszudrücken. Ich würde vorbei am ersten Paragraphen nicht kommen.
Elisabeth |
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| just me |
| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:04 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Germany
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| double posting cancelled |
Last edited by just me on Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:09 am; edited 2 times in total |
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| just me |
| Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:08 am |
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Location: Germany
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Hi, Elisabeth,
long time no hear! Sorry, RL was terribly interfering.
I think we both very much agree in the main points, but we have to agree to disagree in one or two smaller points . That´s okay, I think.
Elisabeth wrote:
P.S. Ich kann mir kaum nicht vorstellen, diese Gedanken auf Deutsch auszudrücken. Ich würde vorbei am ersten Paragraphen nicht kommen.
Elisabeth
Wow!!! Now I´m thoroughly impressed. Where did you learn German? We could send each other messages in German/English, if you like.
All the best,
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