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jynx67
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:14 am Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 170
Yeah, the doe confused me, too. Where has it been said that Lily's patronus was a doe? I don't remember it anywhere. Did I just miss something? I mean, I had a feeling it was Severus, but... for the life of me, I couldn't figure out the doe.
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pipedreamer
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:00 am Reply with quote
Joined: 28 Apr 2005 Posts: 44 Location: Newcastle, UK
I think that Snape’s reason for protecting Harry – his love for Lily – is perfectly plausible. In fact, I think it’s the best possible reason, and perfectly in line with his Slytherin characteristics. Slytherins will, as the sorting hat says, “use any means/To achieve their ends”. We also know (and I’m paraphrasing here), that Slytherins are ambitious, cunning, guileful and will always choose to save their own skin over others’ (as Phinaeus Nigellus tells Harry in Grimmauld Place).

Snape’s goal is to survive, and he uses his love for Lily to do so, irrespective of the pain it must have caused him to see her marry a man he hated and then be murdered by a Dark Lord he had sworn to serve. He uses the memory of Lily in his Patronus to help her son, despite being the mirror image in looks and personality of Harry's hated father. He uses his love for Lily to serve Dumbledore’s wishes despite spending 6 years having to look into a pair of green eyes that are, as we are constantly reminded, just like Lily’s.

He’s not the archetypal noble, self-sacrificing paragon we come to associate with someone who does things for love. But then if he were, we wouldn’t love his character. He’s bitter, unpleasant and overbearing – and with good reason. He is never thanked, never recognised for his role in front of Harry. Harry thinks the world of Lupin and Sirius and his father because they are outspoken and their actions against Voldemort are open and obvious. He hates Snape because Snape’s motives aren’t clear-cut. He’s subtle and ambiguous, something Harry, bless him, can’t handle. So the very person he's trying to protect is, to Snape's mind, an ungrateful wretch who appears to delight in throwing himself into danger, thus trying Snape's abilities to keep him alive to the very limit.

Besides, even if I’m totally wrong (and I could be, this is after all a personal interpretation), the defining message of the books is that it matters not what we are born, bit what we grow to be. Snape grew into someone who, for all the unpleasantness, bitterness and bullying which characterised his relationship with Harry, redeems himself thoroughly the moment his motives come to light.

He’s ambiguous, sly and bitter. And he’s utterly brilliant.

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Marianne
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:23 am Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 25
Maybe somehow JKR didn't like all the attention Snape got and decided to let him be killed by Nagini over a wand instead of letting him die as a hero trying to protect Harry. By doing this, she could make Harry the undisputed hero of the books.

There is much action in DH as was is HBP, but I liked the previous books better because of the detailed narration.

Someone mentioned that nobody under age 14 should read the book. I've not considered it a children's book after GoF and Cedric's death.
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asyouwish
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:27 am Reply with quote
Joined: 27 May 2007 Posts: 3
I still feel a huge heaviness in my chest over the whole book. With Fred, I knew one of the twins would die, yet to leave George alone and feeling bereft for the rest of his life is horrible. And then Lupin and Tonks...to have just found each other and have a baby, it hit me really hard (especially since I have a little guy too). I was thankful they named Harry godfather, yet it felt like they were signing their death sentence when they did so. It felt good that Harry could be godfather to Teddy like Sirius didn't get the opportunity to be for him.
Mrs. Weasley stepping up like that, it was awesome. I'm still in awe of her and say her line all the time. Laughing
Severus died a horrible death...it made me sick to my stomach...but then when Harry came and Severus grabbed him and said look at me...then seeing the memories and having it make sense. I've shouted down the Snape loved Lily theory for years and now I have egg on my face! Shocked
And I was watching Attack of the Show yesterday and they had the guy from NY Times and he was like, Severus didn't have a good death scene.
I looked at my husband and I was like, that idiot doesn't know what he's talking about! I'm still weepy about it! To have him grab Harry like that, to see Lily's eyes one last time as he dies at Harry's feet, the tragic hero....to learn of his undying love for Lily...the memories we saw. We got it!
I don't think I can read fanfic for a while, until the book settles in more. I have a bit of shock syndrome going on. But after that, I can't wait to read all the brilliant stories about this heroic character.

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Nakhash Mekashefah
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:23 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 20
Quote:
Yeah, the doe confused me, too. Where has it been said that Lily's patronus was a doe? I don't remember it anywhere. Did I just miss something? I mean, I had a feeling it was Severus, but... for the life of me, I couldn't figure out the doe.



I'm guessing it ties in with James' stag Patronus. In other words - LAME!

And the epilogue is the most fan-ficcy thing ever! I hate when stories have some cute, fluffy little satin-bow tied ending that has no real connection to the rest of the story (other than character names) and serves no real purpose. It didn't even tie off any loose ends! Did they finish schooling and sit for their NEWTs? Jobs (Auror, Quidditch, ???)? Who is/isn't considered a hero in the Wizarding world now that the facts are out (or were they even made public)? S'up now with the Ministry and how it's being run? How the hell did the Malfoys get off?

I'm sure everyone can think of many, many more.

All we know is that the characters Miss Jo wanted to be together got together and popped out some sprogs. Not even going to try and guess where RW/HG got those names (HUGO?) HP/GW's were no surprise (well...except for giving one Severus as a middle name).

And what was THAT all about?

From: I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE SNAPE (maybe more than LV) and I'm gonna KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL SNAPE 'cause he's EVIL and he KILLED DUMBLEDORE!


To: He was the bravest man I ever knew.

I mean, really, when did the truth ever get in the way of Harry's feelings about anything/anyone...particularly Snape? O_o

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Marianne
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:28 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 25
I liked the ending and I thought that after all these deaths I NEEDED this happily ever after. I agree that there are some flaws and some things should have been worked out in detail - as I said much action, but sometimes missing the charm of the previous books.
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Elisabeth
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:38 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 8 Location: U.S. (NJ)
Color me disappointed ...

Mainly with the rushed aspect of the thing. Too many great ideas and characters, too little time to develop them. And then, too much time spent with characters like Luna Lovegood's father, who's really in there for one reason and one reason only -- to explain the nature of the Deathly Hallows (and did we really need so many pages of that, with so many other things going on???)

Snape's death I expected, and I was pretty satisfied that JKR left him as an Order loyalist at the end. But yes, it was anticlimactic. And boy, JKR did the absolute minimum in terms of having characters express appreciation for all Snape's sacrifices in the war. (One line in the epilogue, really!) On the other hand, so many casualties were mounting there at the end, and she didn't really give ANYBODY much of a sendoff.

I don't want to go on, and on, but I did put some other thoughts on what I liked and disliked in my livejournal: http://scribliz.livejournal.com/

Elisabeth
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misty luna
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:54 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 25 Apr 2007 Posts: 2
Well, much as I've been a Snape fan for so long, I do have to remember that it's Harry Potter and the ____. It's centered on Harry and those closest to him, so that pretty much puts the focus on things. I could only hope for some Snape tidbits but ultimately the series isn't centered on him but the Boy Who Lived.

Oh, and I dared not forget that this is still classified under children's literature.
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jynx67
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:43 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 170
I was just thinking about this. Where in the heck did Harry get the remorse question for Voldy? How in the heck did everything get to remorse? When the heck did Harry get smart enough to figure that out? I guess it's like Brilliant!Ron. Three paragraphs and he's a god now.
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And FOREVER
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:02 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 2
I would imagine he asked the remorse question because Dumbledore said that it was a way for you to redeem yourself, and suchfourth..
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Nakhash Mekashefah
Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:01 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 20
Could she possibly have killed some more characters off for no apparent reason? 'Cause I'm not sure she iced enough of them. It was like some crazed serial killer ran amok!

Colin Creevey? What did he do? Flash a camera in Voldy's face after being told no pictures? The flash cube exploded and he inhaled a shard of glass, which sliced through his brain? It's like she threw a dart at a board with character names: If it stuck, you're dead; if it hit but fell back out, you're horribly maimed.

After awhile, I started to feel like Stan Marsh. "OMG! You killed Dobby! You bastard!"

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jynx67
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:07 am Reply with quote
Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 170
And FOREVER wrote:
I would imagine he asked the remorse question because Dumbledore said that it was a way for you to redeem yourself, and suchfourth..


Ah, okay. I was bored with that chapter, so I was reading quickly. I was bored with a lot of this book.

Oh, and I so agree with you, Nakhash
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Tesla
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:12 am Reply with quote
Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 13
I enjoyed bits of this book, but the majority of it seemed bashed together. I'm not out to offend anyone who enjoyed the book. By all means love it, but I cannot be convinced that it wasn't one of the poorest of the entire series. If anyone's got any explanations for the below, I'm keen to hear them - honestly! However, the comment "It's just a kid's book" is not a good one, because I don't see why a kid's book shouldn't be held to some of the same standards as ANY book. Also that "It's JKR's book and she can do what she wants" is probably legitimate, but when you create characters and a story, I think you have a responsibility to them, not the readers, and I didn't feel that's what happened here.
Some of the characters acted OOC, especially Lupin (I thought he might've been someone else in disguise via Polyjuice Potion!).
I also had no recollection of Lily's Patronus being a doe, so I thought that having Snape use the doe form as a Patronus was a peculiar admittance on his part that she belonged to someone else (James with his stag Animagus form). "Hey everyone, the woman I loved became someone else's mate! How about I fix that irrevocably in my mind by altering my Patronus into a form that makes it impossible for me to forget what I don't have!"
I thought no-one could fly of their own volition (sure I read JKR saying that), that you had to have an enchanted object like a broom in order to do so, but wasn't Voldemort doing that??
I'm all for people changing their minds and/or redeeming themselves, but it felt like too many people were doing that. After years of being a mean git, Kreacher turns into Wonder House Elf after just a few nice words from Harry?! Sorry but WHY did Dudley care what happened to Harry? There's never been any indication of remorse on his part, and to be honest, I'm not sure what purpose it served. He could've remained being a spoiled inconsiderate brat and it wouldn't have affected the story at all, and in fact would've been more believable.
Luna's dad? Apart from the sad part of him believing she was still down at the river rather than think of where she actually was, the part at his house was a tedious part of the book. Yes I know it was for the Hallows stuff, but still.
The endless running around the countryside where the trio don't know what they're doing...the idea was believable, but the execution dull. I'm not saying that every minute of their day has to be action packed. Hermione cried so much I wanted to hit her. It was like she was turning into movie!Hermione.
The Hallows idea felt poorly integrated in terms of the entire series...though I'm willing to be convinced otherwise! The idea was interesting especially considering the effect it had on Dumbledore in his younger days.
Dumbledore's more layered character was interesting. Him being a rather merciless manipulator was intriguing, though not sure that some of his earlier handwringing over Harry's misfortunes was very genuine, and that possibility wasn't touched upon in this book. Dumbledore WAS a manipulator...it was irrelevent what happened to the players in his game as long as it ended in Voldemort kicking the bucket once and for all. The end result was for the greater good, but for Harry to name one of his sons after Dumbledore struck me as being simplistic and missing adressing the layers that the Headmaster had to his character, some of them not very laudable.
What I did like is how some people are portrayed as being quite unlikeable such as Scrimgeour, Snape and Narcissa, yet not necessary evil, that not everyone is clearly good or evil.
WHY did those memories leak out from Snape? Because he was dying? Bit of an abrupt plot device.
The epilogue STANK!
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Nakhash Mekashefah
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:05 am Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 20
Quote:
"Hey everyone, the woman I loved became someone else's mate! How about I fix that irrevocably in my mind by altering my Patronus into a form that makes it impossible for me to forget what I don't have!"



Good one! I found it particularly silly after he made fun of Tonks' Patronus in HBP.


I think many people who don't like our complaints don't understand that it's not that we HATE the book or thought it was just, like, so totally wrong! How dare she! Much of what occurred in it was expected. It was how Rowling handled some of the information.

Honestly...wouldn't you rather have done without a couple of dozen pages of camping/crying/eating mushrooms and devoted those pages to showing how some characters met their deaths bravely (or not so bravely as the case may be)?

And you can rip out the epilogue and it not effect the book at all. It added nothing.

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Nakhash Mekashefah
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:07 am Reply with quote
Joined: 29 Nov 2004 Posts: 20
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Oh, and I so agree with you, Nakhash



Thanks! I think we're on the same wavelength here. Wink

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